Controversial Superman Opinions

[Agent Z]

Here’s a controversial take: Zod and Doomsday should never lose to Clark on a pure physical fight. Zod has all of Clark’s powers plus is a trained lifelong military man. I don’t buy Clark being able to win in a straight up fight outside of Zod’s debut perhaps. Clark would need to use a little preptime himself to win.

Doomsday is supposed to become immune to whatever kills him right? So how come Clark can still hurt him with his fists given Doomsday died to blunt trauma last time? Doomsday should be to Clark what Clark is to the average human. When Clark punches Doomsday it should break his hand.

Clark may not be able to kill Doomsday again but that doesn't mean he can't beat him in a fight.

[Ascended]

Here’s a controversial take: Zod and Doomsday should never lose to Clark on a pure physical fight. Zod has all of Clark’s powers plus is a trained lifelong military man. I don’t buy Clark being able to win in a straight up fight outside of Zod’s debut perhaps. Clark would need to use a little preptime himself to win.

Doomsday is supposed to become immune to whatever kills him right? So how come Clark can still hurt him with his fists given Doomsday died to blunt trauma last time? Doomsday should be to Clark what Clark is to the average human. When Clark punches Doomsday it should break his hand.

I definitely agree about Zod.

Now, that first fight? Clark can win that one. When you've got those powers, physics are different. Gravity doesn't matter, a lot of standard combat and martial arts stuff doesn't really work. So a lot of the stuff Zod knows, all that training and honed instinct, is wrong while Clark's spent his whole life with the powers. Clark likely wins that first fight "relatively" easily because of Zod's handicap. But after that? Yeah, Zod's gonna learn real quick how to fight with those powers and the way they change how combat works, and he's gonna kick Clark's ass all over the solar system. Clark will have to think his way out of that fight, and every fight with Zod thereafter, and since Zod's a smart guy and really damn good with tactics, no solution or win condition should work twice.

Doomsday....that one is a little more hazy, because "blunt force trauma" includes a pretty wide range of things. Could Clark win if he just punched harder? Is Doomsday only immune to the level of force Clark used last time, or "blunt force" as a whole? Would that include the gravity sink of a black hole? That's sort of blunt force. What if, instead of punching, Clark just tried ripping limbs off? Does that count?

[Gaius]

Here’s a controversial take: Zod and Doomsday should never lose to Clark on a pure physical fight. Zod has all of Clark’s powers plus is a trained lifelong military man. I don’t buy Clark being able to win in a straight up fight outside of Zod’s debut perhaps. Clark would need to use a little preptime himself to win.

Doomsday is supposed to become immune to whatever kills him right? So how come Clark can still hurt him with his fists given Doomsday died to blunt trauma last time? Doomsday should be to Clark what Clark is to the average human. When Clark punches Doomsday it should break his hand.

Agreed on Zod. I think the only time Clark should really have an advantage over him is in earlier encounters similar to MoS where his advantage his he's had more time with his powers/absorbing yellow sun energy. But that obviously is less of a factor if Zod says as a long-term villain.

Doomsday however is someone I think really shouldn't show up after a "Death of Superman" situation.

[Sacred Knight]

Here’s a controversial take: Zod and Doomsday should never lose to Clark on a pure physical fight. Zod has all of Clark’s powers plus is a trained lifelong military man. I don’t buy Clark being able to win in a straight up fight outside of Zod’s debut perhaps. Clark would need to use a little preptime himself to win.

Doomsday is supposed to become immune to whatever kills him right? So how come Clark can still hurt him with his fists given Doomsday died to blunt trauma last time? Doomsday should be to Clark what Clark is to the average human. When Clark punches Doomsday it should break his hand.

People have touched on Zod, so I'm going to focus on the other one I agree with too. Doomsday, if you're gonna use him, keep using him as what he originally was. An unstoppable machine whom Superman only stopped once at the expense of his own life. When he shows up, you can only hope to contain the mf'er really quick using science and tech and whatnot, because no one is stopping him. He has no personality, he's not a three dimensional character at all. So if the desire is to keep him around, just make him the ultimate in mindless brute power. Doomsday in my mind is basically how Reese describes the Terminator. "It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop. Ever. Until you are dead.” That's all it is. Play up to that. I mean, maybe he shouldn't be used again after DOS. But they were never going to and indeed haven't passed up on keeping him around. So if that's the case, don't get fancy, just admit what it is and use him in that fashion.

Well actually I do have one more thing to add on Zod. Soule played it pretty much like this in SM/WW. Zod and Faora were military. Trained, expert fighters/killers. Clark couldn't handle that by himself. Granted they were doubled up on him but even one-on-one the implication was either would still have the upper hand. He had the help of another trained, expert fighter in her own right.

[Ascended]

New52 Doomsday is the best Doomsday. DC finally stopped pretending it was a character and accepted that it's a plot device. And you can do so much more with the virus than you can a mindless Hulk rip off who's only interesting quality is that Clark can't beat him in a fight.

[Sacred Knight]

The virus angle was indeed really cool. I don't know why I keep forgetting about that. I'm one of the few New 52 Superman fans here after all, haha. Maybe because I just look at it from a framework of the universe they're dealing with and that idiotically when it comes to Superman if it was New 52 its out. But yes, the living virus I definitely saw value in keeping up with.

[Ascended]

Someone should compile a list of all the cool stuff we've lost in reboots/retcons that didn't have to be cut out.

I'd do it but 2020 is depressing enough already.

[SiegePerilous02]

I'm not as familiar with the Doomsday virus, but Superdoom is way better than the actual Doomsday and needs to supplant him across all media immediately.

[Ra-El]

I definitely agree about Zod.

Now, that first fight? Clark can win that one. When you've got those powers, physics are different. Gravity doesn't matter, a lot of standard combat and martial arts stuff doesn't really work. So a lot of the stuff Zod knows, all that training and honed instinct, is wrong while Clark's spent his whole life with the powers. Clark likely wins that first fight "relatively" easily because of Zod's handicap. But after that? Yeah, Zod's gonna learn real quick how to fight with those powers and the way they change how combat works, and he's gonna kick Clark's ass all over the solar system. Clark will have to think his way out of that fight, and every fight with Zod thereafter, and since Zod's a smart guy and really damn good with tactics, no solution or win condition should work twice.

Doomsday....that one is a little more hazy, because "blunt force trauma" includes a pretty wide range of things. Could Clark win if he just punched harder? Is Doomsday only immune to the level of force Clark used last time, or "blunt force" as a whole? Would that include the gravity sink of a black hole? That's sort of blunt force. What if, instead of punching, Clark just tried ripping limbs off? Does that count?

I just rewatched Aquaman, and they touch on something like this. When Arthur first fight with Orm he lost, because his brother have fought undersea his whole lige while Aquaman fought mostly above. At the end when they fight out of the water Aquaman wins.

This logic should be aplied to Zod and Clark. But I believe that with time, Superman and Zod would be more or less equals because Clark would became a more expericenced fighter too, and he wouldn't be fighting only against Zod, but also the likes of Mongul, Brainiac, Metallo, Eradicator and many others. Superman may no learn any traditional martial arts but he would definitely learn how to fight.

[Ra-El]

New52 Doomsday is the best Doomsday. DC finally stopped pretending it was a character and accepted that it's a plot device. And you can do so much more with the virus than you can a mindless Hulk rip off who's only interesting quality is that Clark can't beat him in a fight.

They should bring back New52 Doomsday along with Shay Veritas and that Underworld society Pak used, with the blue monster kid.

[Vordan]

Clark may not be able to kill Doomsday again but that doesn't mean he can't beat him in a fight.

I don’t think he should be able to beat him via “punching harder” is what I mean. After all Clark beat Doomsday the first time by going “all out” no? It took everything he had to kill him the first time, and now he can’t beat him again with simple brute strength. Plus I really do think Doomsday needs to be the “oh ****” kind of villain for Clark (along with Parasite imo), and I think making him someone Clark can’t overwhelm with pure force would be a good way to establish the fear factor.

They should bring back New52 Doomsday along with Shay Veritas and that Underworld society Pak used, with the blue monster kid.

Shay is still around but I wish she were a more prominent member of Supes’ supporting cast. The smartest woman in the world being an ally of Superman is a cool idea, and she’s a POC which is a nice addition to the mostly white Metropolis cast.

Agreed on Zod. I think the only time Clark should really have an advantage over him is in earlier encounters similar to MoS where his advantage his he's had more time with his powers/absorbing yellow sun energy. But that obviously is less of a factor if Zod says as a long-term villain.

Doomsday however is someone I think really shouldn't show up after a "Death of Superman" situation.

Doomsday is “Edge: The Character”. Despite my dislike of slaughterfests, I think the only way to sell him as an effective threat anymore is to basically treat him as a walking natural disaster. When Doomsday shows up, people die. Lots and lots of civilian casualties. Doomsday should embody “not even Superman can save everyone” since he’s such a 1-D force. Because otherwise what’s the point? He’s not going to kill Superman again but the writers still want him to be treated as a big threat.

Basically Metropolis post Doomsday should look as close to this as you can get:

[Ascended]

I'm not as familiar with the Doomsday virus, but Superdoom is way better than the actual Doomsday and needs to supplant him across all media immediately.

It's pretty straight forward; the Doomed storyline established that "Doomsday" isn't a single being, but a virus that turns its host into a giant gray murder monster. I'm not sure if the original Krypton origin was re-purposed for this or not, but it easily could have been.

The New52 also gave Doomsday a giant aura that disintegrated everything it came in contact with, making Clark one of the only people who *can* actually fight the thing, which I thought was a nice touch and vaguely similar to a kind of monster from Magic: The Gathering called eldrazi.

Anyway, that's about it. You successfully kill a Doomsday, the host releases the virus which infects whoever is nearby. Doomsday as a biological weapon has a whole mountain of narrative potential.

Superdoom is truly an excellent villain, but given the meta-commentary on it was so negative towards DC I doubt we see him show up again; not only does no one play with Morrison's toys but Morrison, but it's so in-your-face with the message I can't see DC agreeing to his appearance. I doubt DC has the balls to heavily use a character that basically says "Superman was better before he became a corporate interest."

[marhawkman]

I definitely agree about Zod.

Now, that first fight? Clark can win that one. When you've got those powers, physics are different. Gravity doesn't matter, a lot of standard combat and martial arts stuff doesn't really work. So a lot of the stuff Zod knows, all that training and honed instinct, is wrong while Clark's spent his whole life with the powers. Clark likely wins that first fight "relatively" easily because of Zod's handicap. But after that? Yeah, Zod's gonna learn real quick how to fight with those powers and the way they change how combat works, and he's gonna kick Clark's ass all over the solar system. Clark will have to think his way out of that fight, and every fight with Zod thereafter, and since Zod's a smart guy and really damn good with tactics, no solution or win condition should work twice.

This is part of why Superman studies martial arts. He knows he's not the strongest. So what if he can throw normal Humans into the sun? They're not the big threats. People like Zod are the threats the cops can't handle.

Doomsday....that one is a little more hazy, because "blunt force trauma" includes a pretty wide range of things. Could Clark win if he just punched harder? Is Doomsday only immune to the level of force Clark used last time, or "blunt force" as a whole? Would that include the gravity sink of a black hole? That's sort of blunt force. What if, instead of punching, Clark just tried ripping limbs off? Does that count?

I agree that Doomsday is more plot device than character, honestly he probably should stay that way. Also writers need to carefully use that adaptation power. some of the ways I've seen it used were just dumb.... and make Doomsday nearly impossible to beat... heck, one story had Superman get help from Metron to throw Doomsday towards the end of time. Stranding him in the far future 5 minutes before the end of the universe is the ONLY idea you could come up with?

[Ascended]

This is part of why Superman studies martial arts. He knows he's not the strongest. So what if he can throw normal Humans into the sun? They're not the big threats. People like Zod are the threats the cops can't handle.

I'm a big proponent of Clark studying combat techniques for this exact reason; the world rests on his shoulders, he needs to know how to defend it. But in my opinion, Zod should simply be better. He's been a soldier all his life, in some versions he was literally built to be one, and he has no problem with collateral damage, lethal force, or any of that; he's not holding back in a fight, he's actively trying to kill.

In the same way that Diana is simply a better fighter than Clark, so is Zod.

[SiegePerilous02]

Superdoom is truly an excellent villain, but given the meta-commentary on it was so negative towards DC I doubt we see him show up again; not only does no one play with Morrison's toys but Morrison, but it's so in-your-face with the message I can't see DC agreeing to his appearance. I doubt DC has the balls to heavily use a character that basically says "Superman was better before he became a corporate interest."

You're right of course, but this is precisely why he's so great and we need to see him more often

I think Seeley would use him if given the chance (he always uses Morrison's toys when given the chance), but I don't know what his DC status is now. He's probably another fresh creator that was driven out by DC.