Controversial Superman Opinions

[manwhohaseverything]

You guys can say he needs to Learn combat. But, that's not really any specific. What kind of style? What kind of movement do you prefer for superman? It has to fit superman as a character and concept,as well as being visually engaging.I can understand the reluctance to superman having an combat or movement change is that it would water down the farmboy from kansas thing. It does. If superboy went to future and became a superhero. He should have combat experience. If not, he shouldn't.

[Robanker]

You guys can say he needs to Learn combat. But, that's not really any specific. What kind of style? What kind of movement do you prefer for superman? It has to fit superman as a character and concept,as well as being visually engaging.I can understand the reluctance to superman having an combat or movement change is that it would water down the farmboy from kansas thing. It does. If superboy went to future and became a superhero. He should have combat experience. If not, he shouldn't.

I'm going to discount the use of his powers because, frankly, there's no martial art that factors in super/freeze breath or heat vision. Those will just be used as needed where he finds openings.

If he picked up any formal combat training, he strikes me as a boxer, I suppose. There's finesse, but you wouldn't know it if you were a layman. It just looks like meatheads slugging each other, but there's an entire world of technique required to eke out small advantages. They call it the sweet science for a reason. It's a very direct form of combat that's highly potent and relies on basic fundamentals mastered and used creatively to open up weaknesses; something that appears simple, has a lot of depth, and gets the job done without a ton of flash-- to say nothing of the fact that most boxing matches involve trading blows and using one's fortitude as a tool to get a better position at times. It fits the post-crisis model for Clark a lot, and he does tend to get in boxing matches from time-to-time so the imagery is there. You could probably mix a little grappling in there too. His betters in martial prowess would likely describe his fighting style as "simple, but effective. Not to be underestimated."

I don't see Clark using any advanced or flashy martial arts.

[marhawkman]

I'm going to discount the use of his powers because, frankly, there's no martial art that factors in super/freeze breath or heat vision. Those will just be used as needed where he finds openings.

If he picked up any formal combat training, he strikes me as a boxer, I suppose. There's finesse, but you wouldn't know it if you were a layman. It just looks like meatheads slugging each other, but there's an entire world of technique required to eke out small advantages. They call it the sweet science for a reason. It's a very direct form of combat that's highly potent and relies on basic fundamentals mastered and used creatively to open up weaknesses; something that appears simple, has a lot of depth, and gets the job done without a ton of flash-- to say nothing of the fact that most boxing matches involve trading blows and using one's fortitude as a tool to get a better position at times. It fits the post-crisis model for Clark a lot, and he does tend to get in boxing matches from time-to-time so the imagery is there. You could probably mix a little grappling in there too. His betters in martial prowess would likely describe his fighting style as "simple, but effective. Not to be underestimated."

As one guy I used to know put it "having a black belt in 20 styles of combat means you're bad at 20 styles of combat". The idea being that studying multiple styles doesn't matter much of you're just relearning how to punch. Krav-maga and Capoeira are very different styles. Learning both actually teaches you new approaches to combat. Superman strikes me(hehe) as a Krav-maga kind of guy. It's about learning how/where to hit people so that it really hurts, nothing fancy like Judo, or flashy like Capoeira.

I don't see Clark using any advanced or flashy martial arts.

Well there is that Kryptonian martial art I mentioned. Torquasm vo is a method of focusing your chi to initiate psychic combat or something like that. link

I'd certainly call it advanced, though not actually all that flashy.

[manwhohaseverything]

I'm going to discount the use of his powers because, frankly, there's no martial art that factors in super/freeze breath or heat vision. Those will just be used as needed where he finds openings.

If he picked up any formal combat training, he strikes me as a boxer, I suppose. There's finesse, but you wouldn't know it if you were a layman. It just looks like meatheads slugging each other, but there's an entire world of technique required to eke out small advantages. They call it the sweet science for a reason. It's a very direct form of combat that's highly potent and relies on basic fundamentals mastered and used creatively to open up weaknesses; something that appears simple, has a lot of depth, and gets the job done without a ton of flash-- to say nothing of the fact that most boxing matches involve trading blows and using one's fortitude as a tool to get a better position at times. It fits the post-crisis model for Clark a lot, and he does tend to get in boxing matches from time-to-time so the imagery is there. You could probably mix a little grappling in there too. His betters in martial prowess would likely describe his fighting style as "simple, but effective. Not to be underestimated."

I don't see Clark using any advanced or flashy martial arts.

Boxing is fine. But, superman generally doesn't even take stance. Covering your face is generally instinctual for any one who stepped foot in the ring.And clark's movements end with hooks and haymakers. I have never seen clark doing jabs. Another thing, what is he, generally? An infighter or outfighter? Generally, he strikes me as an infighter(a bad one, because getting in with hooks isn't his priority) . Boxers don't generally like to walk-in to get punched the face. Ducking and dodging is another that should be a priority.Superman rarely does these things. Also, how would boxing look when it's not grounded and in the air(flight has to be taken into account) ? What kindof techniques does clark know? Someone, in this forum compared him jack dempsey(if i remember correctly ). What level would you prefer him to be?Also, you have to take his senses to account.

It isn't about flashiness. It's about creating an entertaining dance. Any variety in movement is good. For example,saitama's movements never have technic (spinning hip thrust. His greatest attack. Lol! ). But, it looks good especially when you contrast his opponents who are technically sound and do "flashy" moves as you sau. You can have two guy who are said to be the "greatest martial artist in the world" and still have a boring matchs.Allmight is a boxer. He normally looks damn awesome.

[Ascended]

You guys can say he needs to Learn combat. But, that's not really any specific. What kind of style?

There really isn't any kind of actual, real world combat style that would work with Clark. He's playing by different physics. Boxing is the closest equivalent we have but I don't think it'd be boxing in a form we really recognize. But like boxing, it'd focus a lot on endurance, positioning, and combos designed to wear an opponent down before the big finisher.

I figure what Clark has done is build a combat style of his own, made from bits and pieces of all kinds of things; boxing, krav maga, judo, wrestling, styles from alien races and time periods, all adapted and repurposed to work with Clark's powerset, and stuff he's worked out for himself. And as Robanker says, unless you know what you're looking at Clark probably looks like an amateur who's just throwing punches with abandon. But if you know what you're looking at, then you can recognize that this body blow combo was adapted from boxing, and that counter-grab-punch combo started out as something from a Khund fighting style, that throw which moves the threat out of the city is based on something from judo, and this other move is something Clark worked out for himself the time he fought a telekinetic alien squid.

In my head, Clark moves something like Ali fused with Holyfield....if Ali and Holyfield could melt concrete with a look, knock buildings over with a breath, and had never met gravity.

I disagree with the notion that Clark just works in his heat vision and ice breath where he finds an opening. He grew up with these powers, using them should be as natural to him as using his fists. I think a big part of Clark's fighting style, aside from adapting stuff to work with his kind of physics, is including his additional powers in the mix, rather than treating them like a "special move" he only uses when there's an opening. That's part of what makes Clark such an effective fighter, he instinctively uses the vortexes created by his speed to his advantage, his heat vision is part of his combos, he uses his breath to knock people off balance and open them up for an attack, etc.

[Johnny Thunders!]

For me Zod learned to fight on Krypton as a mortal man. Clark has learned and fought as a Superhuman for most of his life. Zods enemy is Superman. Superman has a legion of Superhuman foes. He’d be a better fighter. I side with any combat a human does, Superman does at a superhuman level.

[Vordan]

For me Zod learned to fight on Krypton as a mortal man. Clark has learned and fought as a Superhuman for most of his life. Zods enemy is Superman. Superman has a legion of Superhuman foes. He’d be a better fighter. I side with any combat a human does, Superman does at a superhuman level.

Ah but that’s exactly why I think Zod would be better at fighting than Kal. Zod learned to fight on equal footing with his opponent. Kal meanwhile was usually the stronger one of any opponent he faced, and thus I don’t think he would be as good at protecting himself from an opponent who matches or exceeds him in strength, speed, or power. Kal could probably win the first fight because he does know how to use his powers, but unless Zod goes right back into the PZ, I can’t see Kal maintaining that advantage for long.

[marhawkman]

Ah but that’s exactly why I think Zod would be better at fighting than Kal. Zod learned to fight on equal footing with his opponent. Kal meanwhile was usually the stronger one of any opponent he faced, and thus I don’t think he would be as good at protecting himself from an opponent who matches or exceeds him in strength, speed, or power. Kal could probably win the first fight because he does know how to use his powers, but unless Zod goes right back into the PZ, I can’t see Kal maintaining that advantage for long.

This feels like an issue Kal-El would have early in his career as Superman, but not something that would last.

[manwhohaseverything]

There really isn't any kind of actual, real world combat style that would work with Clark. He's playing by different physics. Boxing is the closest equivalent we have but I don't think it'd be boxing in a form we really recognize. But like boxing, it'd focus a lot on endurance, positioning, and combos designed to wear an opponent down before the big finisher.

Superman isn't Real world. But, that doesn’t mean fighting styles cannot take inspiration. I have seen a flying alien use wingchun boxing and taichi techniques on paper. So, anything can work. At the end of the day humanoids creature thrust their limbs to do blunt force damage to opponents. But, how the movements appear and how the fight looks is what matter. So, its not just superman that matters his partner/enemy matters too. Superman villains are all just humanoid creatures. Even doomsday, a "monster" isn't exactly a nonhumanoid. So, any fighting style for him and his opponent would work as long as it looks good and has good amount of tension. Its all just entertainment.

[Ra-El]

You guys can say he needs to Learn combat. But, that's not really any specific. What kind of style? What kind of movement do you prefer for superman? It has to fit superman as a character and concept,as well as being visually engaging.I can understand the reluctance to superman having an combat or movement change is that it would water down the farmboy from kansas thing. It does. If superboy went to future and became a superhero. He should have combat experience. If not, he shouldn't.

The way I see it, Superman would use some boxing that he would learn most by watching, and some grapling, something like aikido, that would let him put his oponents down without really needing to hurt them that bad. But most of what he actually knows about fighting he should learn on the field, when fighting the likes of Mongul, Zod and other powerhouses that can hurt him and are fomally trained.

[Ascended]

Superman isn't Real world. But, that doesn’t mean fighting styles cannot take inspiration.

.....that is exactly what I said.

The kind of fighting styles we have in the real world only work so far with somebody like Clark. He's living on a different level than we are, and a lot of stuff that works for us in a fight doesn't work for him. Yeah, a punch is a punch, a broken bone is a broken bone, but there's a lot more to a fight than just that. Like, I studied shaolin kempo for a while, and there's a fair amount of trips and throws in that, none of which would work the same on Clark or a lot of his enemies. A leg sweep? Not gonna work. A blow to the nose to blind an opponent with blood and tears? Not gonna work nearly as well on Clark due to his other senses, or many of his foes for the same reason. But Clark would take those fighting styles and adapt them for his world. So Clark wouldn't be using a particular boxing technique, but a fanciful Super Boxing technique he put together himself, using the normal version as a starting point.

Ultimately this is all just academic and theoretical; as long as Superman looks dynamic and exciting on the page/screen, that's all that matters and we can't expect an artist or actor or stunt team to develop an entire fighting style based around Clark's abilities....and even if they did, it's damn unlikely anyone would notice it anyway, beyond the obvious stuff like using heat vision while throwing a punch, or getting thrown only to hover in midair. But within the fiction itself, Clark has built a fighting style; we're just discussing what it'd be like.

[manwhohaseverything]

The way I see it, Superman would use some boxing that he would learn most by watching, and some grapling, something like aikido, that would let him put his oponents down without really needing to hurt them that bad. But most of what he actually knows about fighting he should learn on the field, when fighting the likes of Mongul, Zod and other powerhouses that can hurt him and are fomally trained.

I think just watching stuff is not gonna be enough. This is the main conundrum with superman. He needs to be farmboy with no experience, as well as fight military supermen and it has to make sense. Watching something on tv, fighting someone with training and equal strength is another. Sure, superman would be able to take on street thugs or whatever. But, if the first time he fights is someone like zod without anything holding him back. It shouldn't be a fight. watching something and applying it,(especially, on field) are world's apart. You need to build muscle memory. That can only happen through repetitiveness.Clark as a farmboy with no experience should get koed without much effort againt zod, no contest. With The superboy thing atleast, it make sense. But, then clark wouldn't just be a farmboy.He could move in whichever ways and use "fancy" moves as people said. Even Goldenage superman, while never being "superman". He actually was portrayed pretty competent and the guy had some moves.

As long as its an action genre. Superman would need to learn fighting. Either have him get beat first when he first fights the likes of zod, mongul, Darkseid..etc.Then have him train and build himself up perfecting what he knows or "watched" like boxing (as multiple people here prefer) or he is a competent fighter who has combat experience by being superboy or goldenage superman. In the second scenario it's a non issue. He can have any movement. Heck! He can even do this.

[manwhohaseverything]

.....that is exactly what I said.

The kind of fighting styles we have in the real world only work so far with somebody like Clark. He's living on a different level than we are, and a lot of stuff that works for us in a fight doesn't work for him. Yeah, a punch is a punch, a broken bone is a broken bone, but there's a lot more to a fight than just that. Like, I studied shaolin kempo for a while, and there's a fair amount of trips and throws in that, none of which would work the same on Clark or a lot of his enemies. A leg sweep? Not gonna work. A blow to the nose to blind an opponent with blood and tears? Not gonna work nearly as well on Clark due to his other senses, or many of his foes for the same reason. But Clark would take those fighting styles and adapt them for his world. So Clark wouldn't be using a particular boxing technique, but a fanciful Super Boxing technique he put together himself, using the normal version as a starting point.

Ultimately this is all just academic and theoretical; as long as Superman looks dynamic and exciting on the page/screen, that's all that matters and we can't expect an artist or actor or stunt team to develop an entire fighting style based around Clark's abilities....and even if they did, it's damn unlikely anyone would notice it anyway, beyond the obvious stuff like using heat vision while throwing a punch, or getting thrown only to hover in midair. But within the fiction itself, Clark has built a fighting style; we're just discussing what it'd be like.

Well, that would be the fun part wouldn't it. He would be like bruce lee and develop his own "jeet kune do". It's action genre. Clark getting koed, coming back by learning things and combining them wouldn't exactly be a bad thing. Actually, a leg sweep would depend on the force of the strike and Clark not levitating. If there are powerful guys that can do that. Hell, yeah! It could work. I farely certain even goku gets sweeped as well. Punch to the nose same deal. As long as there is a level of blunt force weakness in superman. Then that gonna be very much part of it. Its different deal when fighting something that can't be killed by blunt force like Doomsday(after being killed by that means). Then the game and rules changes.
On side note, Speaking of bruce lee. I wonder what it would look like to see superman mimic bruce lee's movements. I have always complained of superman portrayals being without passion. When it comes to passion. There is no better man. The guy makes a fight look, emotional and energetic . That's the kind of presence i would want from superman when he is fighting. Ofcourse, superman can be like jackie chan when in he is doing the "clumsy clark kent" bit.whoops! I accidentally punched a guy with planning to mug someone.

[The World]

I said this before, might have even been in this very thread but I think if you took Dudley from Street Fighter and Marduck from Tekken you would have something around where I'd put place Superman stylistically. Dudley is basically a boxer with supernatural abilities and Marduck is grappling powerhouse that really communicates his physicality. I might toss in some Zangief from V as well.

[Gaius]

I don't really care for or see the need of Superman being trained in some form of combat or martial arts. I guess it might cut down on nonsense like people saying Batman or whomever could beat him in a "fair fight" but I'd just prefer it if Batman vs. Superman/hero vs. hero story lines got the kaput altogether at DC.