Controversial Superman Opinions

[marhawkman]

The ****storm unleashed by that would be a sight to see lmao. Bruce Timm wanted to do something similar with Clark and Lashina, given the two had sex at the end of STAS while he was brainwashed.

Makes me wonder if Darkseid had a plan B. If he can't have a Kryptonian to serve him, perhaps he can have a half-Kryptonian? That'd make an interesting story. Probably an elseworld though.

Maxima doing something like that would be a different tone of story. Maxima's not lawful evil. Somewhere between lawful good and chaotic neutral?

EDIt: ok then: https://www.cbr.com/superman-darksei...na-bruce-timm/

[Steel Inquisitor]

No, clark and lois weren't dating. Lois never even knew superman was clark. They might have had moments where they kissed. But, that's just it. That's not dating.It might not be concensual and it can be depicted as bad.It doesn't have to be killing joke or dick Grayson situation where the victims aren't given anything after.But as said, ignoring anything and everything that's risky would only create blandness not complexity. Why can't superman be a victim? Heck! Clark being a victim would mean more. He's freaking superman and still was taken advantage of. Moreover, i was being a bit sarcastic. Clark is the last person i would consider to be "by the book". Gordon on the other hand entirely is. Clark generally doesn't care for rules especially, if doing the right thing is concerned.Superman is more of an idealist like captain America in the movies than some boyscout who clings to rule books.Finally, it all depends on the demographics you want to reach. I wouldn't want these kinds of stories for kids. But, that doesn’t mean superman can't have stories that aren't for children.

By the Justice League Unlimited they were dating and she knew he was Superman.



It's also a kids show, things like that aren't going to be fully explored and certainly not with the censors - this wasn't Young Justice.

Except the problems in your previous post was that Clark was cheating and it'd create drama, not because it made Clark a victim. It will create drama because those subjects make people upset those characters are being traumatised, the show would have bigger problems if the audience didn't care about there own characters. As well as the fact it cartoons aren't known for handling a sentence subject like that properly and would be denied less opportunity to explore it since it's not live action and it's a cartoon for school kids.

This is Superman TAS Superman, he is as by the books you can get in the DCAU. But the Bruce Timm cartoons were for kids.

One of my favourite stories is berserk. The protagonist in it was sold of to get raped by his own adopted father in that book. Honestly, guts is very tragic character in general.It's kind of wierd that superman and guts are born with same archetype. But, they aren't the same at all.Guts is the struggler and nietzschean in philosophy. Superman ain't. Guts is more batman than batman could dream of.

Guts is fantasy Punisher, and his stories are not the type associated with either Batman or Superman, even DKR wasn't as edgy as that.

[Vordan]

I prefer original Maxima. She wasn't most nuanced character in the world, but not everyone has to be. She was a snooty, privileged noble, thus not really supposed to be great to be around. But she was fun to read about, whether antagonist or trying to be a hero. Her struggles in that specific area in fact were what interested me most. One minute she'd be a member of the JL the next she'd get pissed about something and go rogue. And although I did not support killing her off, her original end was heroic. Plus it bugs me on principle when Superman-based characters are repackaged to add to someone else's gallery. She was aged down in the New 52 specifically to be a Supergirl character. That didn't sit well and still doesn't.

Thing is, Maxima was a sorta “Black Cat” type LI, only interested in Superman and not Clark Kent. In that role she worked fine, but once Lois & Clark tied the knot she became redundant. I’m cool with her being a part of Clark’s history, I think her tempting Clark to ditch his “boring” human life for one of action and sex as her consort is a good way to develop him as a character. It’s a test to see just how much he values that kind of life, and I do think he should seriously ponder the pros and cons of being Superman 24/7 occasionally.

[manwhohaseverything]

By the Justice League Unlimited they were dating and she knew he was Superman.


It's also a kids show, things like that aren't going to be fully explored and certainly not with the censors - this wasn't Young Justice.

Except the problems in your previous post was that Clark was cheating and it'd create drama, not because it made Clark a victim. It will create drama because those subjects make people upset those characters are being traumatised, the show would have bigger problems if the audience didn't care about there own characters. As well as the fact it cartoons aren't known for handling a sentence subject like that properly and would be denied less opportunity to explore it since it's not live action and it's a cartoon for school kids.

This is Superman TAS Superman, he is as by the books you can get in the DCAU. But the Bruce Timm cartoons were for kids.



Guts is fantasy Punisher, and his stories are not the type associated with either Batman or Superman, even DKR wasn't as edgy as that.

This happened before justice league(lashina and superman ) . Young justice is also kids show until it started airing on streaming service. No, i said i don't particularly care for these kind of drama where clark sleeps with another woman cause i don't care who clark dates. That was a separate issue, related to if someone wrote clark having an affair. Finally, mate who said about having that in the kid show. There are tons of tie in comics and other spin offs where it can be depicted, that doesn’t have to be for kids. Portraying someones traumatic experiences =/=soap opera drama. Soap opera drama is making mountain out of a mole hill like what happens in superman comics in general. I revealed my identity. I didn't reveal my identity. Lois loves clark. Lois love superman.superman loves lana. Superman loves lois. Superman loves wonderwoman. Superman loves swampthing. Superman and lois aren't living together. Blah! Blah! Blah! What a bunch of nauseating nonsense. Who cares.

Punisher? I haven't seen anything that ties guts and punisher. Punisher as far i know doesn't have any nietzschean trappings. Batman does. Oh! Yeah! Especially frank miller batman.i am speaking themes and philosophy. If you think berserk is edgy like punisher. I got nothing to say about that. Because that's surface level breakdown and pretty laughable.

Batman and guts are about fighting monsters in the abyss. They are both about existentialism, nihilism, madness.. Etc. Although, guts as a character feels more tragic. Batman whole shtick ends with "my parents were killed".Superman and guts share the same "hero" archetype. Both have two sets of parents. Both fight dragons and saves the damsel in distress.
The reason why batman or for that matter guts himself is made out to be the antithesis of superman is the same. In batman's world superman is Griffith, two face..etc.He is the white knight who serves "church". In that world superman will always turn out evil and not geniune. Messiah's/traditional white knights aren't viewed favourably.

[Ra-El]

The ****storm unleashed by that would be a sight to see lmao. Bruce Timm wanted to do something similar with Clark and Lashina, given the two had sex at the end of STAS while he was brainwashed.

But, Superman would not know he had a daughter and she would be conceived before he and Lois got together.

[Ascended]

I agree with this take on Maxima.

In fact I even vaguely remember there was a scene where she was like, befuddled by the concept of lesbianism, and it felt really true to her character. As well as, you know, a little bit uncomfortable, given her views on men. And so making the New 52 Maxima (or a comparable expy) into the "classic" Maxima's daughter seems like a fruitful idea as well.

Of course, that removes my favorite Maxima story from the equation, because there's no way that Clark would let homophobism slide. He'd lovingly and tolerantly bring Maxima around to a less bigoted view like you'd expect.

What's your favorite Maxima story?

I agree that Maxima's feelings on homosexuality made sense, and watching her be confronted by these new ideas on earth and wrestle with them, watching them unfold and comparing it to what her culture taught her to expect, was an interesting facet in her brief JL days (I also believe this was one of the first major "wink wink nudge nudge" moments about Diana not being straight too?). I remember when Maxima worked with Amazing Man she was fascinated by his skin tone because Almerac doesn't have brown skinned people, and she found it quite exotic.

Max isn't a character you're really supposed to like, especially at first. But she's not a straight villain either and her ultimate goal of securing her empire is noble, despite questionable methods. If you view the typical superhero construct as a commentary on Kant style ethics then Maxima offers a really intriguing take on a more utilitarian style of ethical decision making.

How was it a commentary on feminism?

Like I said before, I'm not making a strong claim here. And it's been a minute since I covered the various eras of feminism in a sociology class, but if I recall correctly, 80's feminism (what is that, third wave?) had a big push towards a kind of "take what you want and be a ball buster" approach. Which is exactly what Maxima was. I think the closest terms for her would be "cougar" or "man eater" and those concepts both came into play heavily in the 80's and early 90's, used as both a "good thing" and a "bad thing" depending on who you asked. If I remember those classes correctly (which I might not be, sociology classes were generic requirements and not a focus of my degree). Like I said, Maxima is not a nuanced approach to anything as a character, but I'd guess that, damn near thirty years ago, she fit a certain image of feminism well enough.

Thing is, Maxima was a sorta “Black Cat” type LI, only interested in Superman and not Clark Kent. In that role she worked fine, but once Lois & Clark tied the knot she became redundant. I’m cool with her being a part of Clark’s history, I think her tempting Clark to ditch his “boring” human life for one of action and sex as her consort is a good way to develop him as a character. It’s a test to see just how much he values that kind of life, and I do think he should seriously ponder the pros and cons of being Superman 24/7 occasionally.

I think the original approach to Maxima became redundant, but by that time she was working with the League and growing as a person. She was always a spoiled little brat, but grew beyond her initial motivation fairly quickly. Yes, she'd get pissed off and leave the League to go attack Clark in a jealous rage again, but her original "make Superman my consort and why would he even want to live on this mud ball in the first place?" mentality was dampened considerably during her time with the League.

[Vordan]

But, Superman would not know he had a daughter and she would be conceived before he and Lois got together.

There would still be a massive reaction to Superman having an out of wedlock child like what happened when Damian was revealed. I’m not saying I wouldn’t read it, something like that would be a pretty interesting story, but dunno if DC would ever let it happen. A Super Daughter that’s totally unlike Clark in any way that he has to bond with would present a rather unique challenge to the Super Family though.

[Steel Inquisitor]

This happened before justice league(lashina and superman ) . Young justice is also kids show until it started airing on streaming service. No, i said i don't particularly care for these kind of drama where clark sleeps with another woman cause i don't care who clark dates. That was a separate issue, related to if someone wrote clark having an affair. Finally, mate who said about having that in the kid show. There are tons of tie in comics and other spin offs where it can be depicted, that doesn’t have to be for kids. Portraying someones traumatic experiences =/=soap opera drama. Soap opera drama is making mountain out of a mole hill like what happens in superman comics in general.

It was the final storyline for Superman TAS. Young Justice was far more complex and sophisticated in their storytelling once they got going in season 1, they had far less restrictions than the Timm 'verse did when it was on the air. This isn't just about you. This was about Bruce Timm doing that storyline on his cartoons shows, a kids show. Sure, but that's not what we're discussing. Except doing this storyline in any format would create drama, both in-universes and outside of it. Soap operas do storylines like this, secret children, cheating is a thing they do - this would be even more sensitive to that due to the brainwashing. Something like this would not be a minor incident, especially to Superman who would be traumatised, confused and trying to fit this new status quo into his life - something like this was a plot point with Superboy in Young Justice which continued over the seasons. Rape is also a topic media tries to avoid because it's really easy to do it wrong and make people angry if it isn't given it's due in story.

I revealed my identity. I didn't reveal my identity. Lois loves clark. Lois love superman.superman loves lana. Superman loves lois. Superman loves wonderwoman. Superman loves swampthing. Superman and lois aren't living together. Blah! Blah! Blah! What a bunch of nauseating nonsense. Who cares.

Many people do. Those are just normal things in every day life that people cling to because it makes the characters feel human and relatable. Don't mistake your feelings for everyone else's, DC makes their products for a wide audience not a sole customer.

Punisher? I haven't seen anything that ties guts and punisher. Punisher as far i know doesn't have any nietzschean trappings. Batman does. Oh! Yeah! Especially frank miller batman.i am speaking themes and philosophy. If you think berserk is edgy like punisher. I got nothing to say about that. Because that's surface level breakdown and pretty laughable.

Batman and guts are about fighting monsters in the abyss. They are both about existentialism, nihilism, madness.. Etc. Although, guts as a character feels more tragic. Batman whole shtick ends with "my parents were killed".Superman and guts share the same "hero" archetype. Both have two sets of parents. Both fight dragons and saves the damsel in distress.
The reason why batman or for that matter guts himself is made out to be the antithesis of superman is the same.

Guts is dedicated his life to killing demons and anyone who gets close to him dies. I know what Bersertk is and for this subject I don't need to go any further. Berserk is well written, but it's still grim dark edge. Batman's parents dying is a big part of who he became but that's just one part of who he is, and he's got far more going for him than Guts, who just has endless misery. Batman's origin is a fairy tale compared to his. Guts is an anti-hero, not a hero. Guts and Superman live in very different worlds which have opposite atmospheres, media and genres. Batman would be more like him than Superman. I'm curious why you like Guts but don't like Batman. Guts is more super-human than Batman ever was.

In batman's world superman is Griffith, two face..etc.He is the white knight who serves "church". In that world superman will always turn out evil and not geniune. Messiah's/traditional white knights aren't viewed favourably.

Griffith isn't Superman, he's Lex Luthor. He's a fraud who sells everyone out for godhood.

[marhawkman]

There would still be a massive reaction to Superman having an out of wedlock child like what happened when Damian was revealed. I’m not saying I wouldn’t read it, something like that would be a pretty interesting story, but dunno if DC would ever let it happen. A Super Daughter that’s totally unlike Clark in any way that he has to bond with would present a rather unique challenge to the Super Family though.

*points at Cir-El*

Not a "real" daughter since it was artificial engineering stuffing bits of Kryptonian DNA into a human. Not even whole chromosomes, individual genes. But the father-daughter-ish relationship was still there. This was before Damian, though. I've heard people call Cir-El the "worst Supergirl ever" and "fake Supergirl", but.... I thought the idea was ok.

[manwhohaseverything]

trucated

Exactly, lashina and superman thing happened before jl unlimited. Superman and lois serious relationship started later in jl unlimited not in tas as far as i remember. There isn't anything that suggests clark and lois were an item when darkseid had control of kal. Clark could have been with whomever . I would say young justice targeted a different demographics that's a bit more female and teen oriented. Complex? That's debatable. They were going for a tone that's more mature. That's generally it. Btas is more complex than young justice. That was targeting the same demographics as superman tas. Well, Everything is drama. It's a portrayal, by definition recreation which means drama. If you mean dramatic. No, it doesn't have to. It depends on how it's approached. But, ofcourse that doesn't mean trivialising what happened or undercutting emotional moments. Soapopera's might tackle these moments and subjects. I didn't say they don't . But, They are going for something entirely different, do things differently and as said, targeting a different audience . One of the best moments in one piece is luffy's aftermath of traumatic events like death of ace, his crew being apparently killed.. Etc. These moments are cathartic. It helps generate pathos to the character. Which superman definitely needs. Atleast, precrisis supermen(goldenage and silverage) was kal l or had a orphan solitude for this purpose (didn't have anything, no money,or anyone. The guy would need to build himself up and longed for a family). When was the last time superman had a breakdown where he cries his heart out without it being a drag?

That's right. It doesn't happen. There is a reason for the man who has everything works. Superman was vulnerable as heck! In that book.Would it work with postcrisis superman who literally has everything he wants? I don't know. For me, it wouldn't. As for it being minor incident, it doesn't need to. But, that doesn’t mean dramatic storytelling is required for sending a message across or having impact felt. You do know thor ragnarok onwards had sent thor on journey with many traumatic events happening to him one after another ? As much as, i am not fan of undercutting emotional moments that happened in those movies(i prefer those being in ) . I do appreciate not going for the dramatics . Because then it would be for a different audience . As said, avoiding a topic is pretty easy(rape) . But, that doesn’t make it go away nor can doing so be called complex. This is exactly, what i felt with the whole goldenage superman vs postcrisis debate in infinite crisis. Worse, people actually believe postcrisis superman and his world is complex. When in fact, its mere illusions with dramatic storytelling and not tackling any subject. Its not because writer had something to say complex . That's another thing dramatics=/=complexity. Just because you emphasis more and give panel space on the love triangle between lois, clark and superman. Does not make it anymore complex.i can say, i am god and i am god.both are pretty much the same.

So you actually care for the soap opera drama?Good for you, i guess. I don't. Yeah! I don't think these kind of drama are everyday nor do i think it provides any relatability. As for reaching a wide audience, Yeah! That's not what i think nor do i think that's happening. Proof is pretty much in the market size, sales, demographics... Etc.heck!i can't get my nephew to read superman mainline. He liked smashes the klan though and supersons. I do believe superman being about soap opera dramatic storytelling and not action/adventure is just misplaced priority.I do find it entirely lame.

Dude!what do you think happens to batman's family? Jason todd, Barbara gordon... Etc the list is pretty long. What does war on crime entail? See gut's Monsters are both metaphorical and exists in really in his world. Bruce's monsters are humans and only metaphorical in nature. That's the only difference. Ofcourse, bruce has some kantian categorical imperative "thou shall not kill" thing going on due to the comics code .Dude! Grim dark edge? Guts is the struggler in a world where "god is dead" and so deterministic world view is seen as antagonistic. That struggler epithet exists for a reason. Despite all that, guts comes through. I would say, guts is vulnerable and emotional. Bruce in large swaths of his comics has none of those qualities. That's the reason why i say guts is better. Guts actually shows other emotions other than brooding. He cries, he genuinely smiles,he is sensitive ... Etc. Guts is a hero. Mate! Story entirely justifies guts positions and his mistakes/inner demons are just that. An anti hero is someone who takes opposing view from heroic values relative to a particular society or world for an audience to latch on to. Guts possess and reinforces true heroic values.He possess compassion, helps those in need, protects the weak and never exploits them with his strength.So,guts being an anti hero is false claim. Griffith is the anti hero. Moreover, jason todd is the anti hero. Especially, if you have batman as the hero.But currently in his books,Jason is generally a hero because he does things that generally batman nor superman don't . Bizzaro being taken in is an example. Duh! Batman's narrative(generally) is more like guts philosophically, Which is what i said. Yet, guts and superman are based on the universal "hero" archetype. But, ofcourse modern superman is made to be the white knights/boyscout/messiah. Which is a stark departure .They might be different genres. But, human behavior and stories created with human intellects have patterns, therefore can have same underlying philosophical base.Comparing narratives is the only way we can say which did it better.

Moreover, as said from nietzschean perspective whiteknights/messiahs are seen through the eyes of cynicism, skeptism. Hence, superman many a times is made into evil guys like in injustice, dark knight returns.. Etc. That might be true about lex and Griffith. I mean, the strong ambition is a correlation . But, i am talking from a nietzschean perspective i. E batman's stories and world. What is modern superman? Bruce's best friend or companion and in a way, very much alike to him, yet different. He can entirely be equated to Griffith or two face. The white knight that jumps the shark at the slightest sign of trouble. The character has a major messiah complex and a dad complex. He goes "i am so disappointed in you children", atleast once a month(cough! Cough! Kingdom come) . The stories told in that way as well .Superman is made out to be an example humanity should follow aka messiah, god (right from the donner movies, singer movies, heck! Even snyder used the trappings and superman was set up as this) . The character himself positions himself infront of people like that as well. Hence, the boyscout naive farmboy routine, paling around with authorities/institutions, not speaking up for truth/justice in the guise of fairness, fear of slippery slope that puts yourself furthest from the original position taken by you and self appointed guardianship/messiah role. Ofcourse, the clinging to rules books portrayals are also part of that as well. Otherwise, if people don't have the same perspective as modern superman or have a differing view on things.The books caricaturise or treats it as heresy(what's so funny) .Here is an opposite view, What if i choose to not follow superman? What if i don't want his brand of sermons in my life?what if i choose(i don't know) let's say bibbo bibbowski as the example to follow? What then? Superman throws a fit?i mean that's what usually happens in modern portrayals. So, yeah! Superman will always be the bad guy as long as nietzschean trappings are being used by batman and dc in general.

[Myskin]

CUT

No offense meant, but I just think that you are looking for something which is impossible to find in Superman books and probably always will. The format itself prevents this stuff from happening.
I mean, it's not that I don't understand your point (I guess). I have been looking for more "authorial" stuff in Superman for, I don't know, 20 years? And I have never found it except for a handful of books which I won't even mention, because everybody knows them. At this point in my life I am more interested in the BTS drama than the stories, and there is simply better stuff to read, or I am more interested in.

[manwhohaseverything]

No offense meant, but I just think that you are looking for something which is impossible to find in Superman books and probably always will. The format itself prevents this stuff from happening.
I mean, it's not that I don't understand your point (I guess). I have been looking for more "authorial" stuff in Superman for, I don't know, 20 years? And I have never found it except for a handful of books which I won't even mention, because everybody knows them. At this point in my life I am more interested in the BTS drama than the stories, and there is simply better stuff to read, or I am more interested in.

Oh!I am not really looking for anything. I just feel it wouldn't be big deal breaker if someone actually tried to do something or a tackle subject with the ip as the base environment . I guess i am arguing for the principle. I don't believe there should be inherently taboo for writers,unless there is something morally reprehensible being said. You just have to target different audiences.Ofcourse, things may have gone on a tangent with that guts superman and batman comparison.

[Ascended]

*points at Cir-El*

I am amazed that people even still remember her. She was in one storyline from twenty years ago!

I suppose that's as good a reason to bring her back as any; if she left that much of an impression it might be worth trying to make something out of her. But more people remember Cir-El and her fifteen minutes of fame than some characters from the same era who actually had books of their own!

[marhawkman]

I am amazed that people even still remember her. She was in one storyline from twenty years ago!

I suppose that's as good a reason to bring her back as any; if she left that much of an impression it might be worth trying to make something out of her. But more people remember Cir-El and her fifteen minutes of fame than some characters from the same era who actually had books of their own!

She actually made a brief appearance in a later book. Superman gets stuck in the Source Wall, so Bizarro finds people to help him rescue Superman... one of them was Cir-El.

I was really annoyed when they decided to erase her from history with time travel. :/

[SiegePerilous02]

IGuts is dedicated his life to killing demons and anyone who gets close to him dies. I know what Bersertk is and for this subject I don't need to go any further. Berserk is well written, but it's still grim dark edge. Batman's parents dying is a big part of who he became but that's just one part of who he is, and he's got far more going for him than Guts, who just has endless misery. Batman's origin is a fairy tale compared to his. Guts is an anti-hero, not a hero. Guts and Superman live in very different worlds which have opposite atmospheres, media and genres. Batman would be more like him than Superman. I'm curious why you like Guts but don't like Batman. Guts is more super-human than Batman ever was..

Not gonna get into this too much, but I wouldn't say Guts has too much in common with the Punisher when his whole journey is taken into consideration. At this point in the story, things are less cynical, he's recognized dedicating his life to hunting demons and not cherishing the loves one has left is a terrible waste, and he has a new and ever growing set of allies who have made it pretty far. spoilers:

Casca is also back

end of spoilers And while some of them are likely going to die before the end, we're not getting Eclipse 2.0. Building a found family for himself is pretty similar to Bruce, and I think modern Bruce could really stand to take some characterization cues from Guts in who he deals with his new family (aloof/broody, but kind and appreciative).

And it handles it's grim, edgy darkness with more maturity for the most part compared to modern DC stuff, especially Batman.