Controversial Superman Opinions

[SiegePerilous02]

I never said everything from the 80s onward was perfect. In fact, I was very clear that modern writing has both good and bad points to it. Same as any other era.

Because more often than not, the stories and characters Superman is being compared to are not trying to what the character is aiming for. Superman is not Joel from The Last of Us and that game is telling a very different story from what Superman normally is telling.

Finding fault with modern Superman is one thing (I've criticized stories like What's So Funny myself) but a lot of times it feels like fans here want a version of Superman that isn't anymore true to the character than the version they criticize.

No, I know you were clear. But in general, modern writing is held up as being superior to what came before even though like you say, there are good and bad points to all eras.

Joel is not Superman, but the World seemed to be comparing one specific aspect of each character, not the whole package. Obviously they are overall different characters in different types of stories, but that doesn't mean partial comparisons can be drawn.

When fans want a version of Superman they prefer, here at least a lot of them cite specific examples of what they like within the character's own history. If the versions exists that they can point to, how can it not be true to the character? What is a specific example of stuff they claim to want that you feel isn't true to the character over some of the stuff they criticize?

[Agent Z]

No, I know you were clear. But in general, modern writing is held up as being superior to what came before even though like you say, there are good and bad points to all eras.

Joel is not Superman, but the World seemed to be comparing one specific aspect of each character, not the whole package. Obviously they are overall different characters in different types of stories, but that doesn't mean partial comparisons can be drawn.

When fans want a version of Superman they prefer, here at least a lot of them cite specific examples of what they like within the character's own history. If the versions exists that they can point to, how can it not be true to the character? What is a specific example of stuff they claim to want that you feel isn't true to the character over some of the stuff they criticize?

Manwhohaseverything's frequent posts about anime and manga characters come to mind. There is also the frequent calls to make Clark some kind of intergalactic "player" often from people who hate Lois and the frequent whining about Superdad being "patriarchal" or "conservative" or whatever such nonsense.

[manwhohaseverything]

Manwhohaseverything's frequent posts about anime and manga characters come to mind.

Riiiight, making superman a working class competent strongman who breakes limits is somehow not true to the character. Asking for the action to be emphasized more is not true the character. Asking for the character to be portrayed more as a champion, not a savior is not true to the character. Please, I have not made one post comparing attributes that superman didn't have. I have only criticised the bankruptcy of the messianic and stereotypical naive rule book clinging boyscout portrayal.There is a heroic spirit to the character that he inherited from the likes of zorro and doc savage. Sadly, it's dead.If i see more the heroic spirit of siegel and shuster's superman in allmight or luffy. Then i compare them. If i see morality plays of a limitless being done effortlessly without the pretentiousness of "i am a god walking amongst men, learning to be them" in one punch man. Then i do speak it.



This does a better morality play than the nonsense being served.I would say this did a better job than bvs did.
Must there be a superman(bvs)
You be the judge, which did it better bvs or recess.

Moreover, it isn't that i compare modern superman to manga characters. No, i compare modern superman or superdad to siegel and shuster's superman. When i don't see the attributes of that character in the what's being served to me as superman. I compare the attributes or lack thereof with supermen similar to him in other franchises that i am familiar with, that are modern or semi modern. I grew up with mangas. So, that's what i go for. I firmly, believe a creators intent and voice should never be expunged from the character he created even though i wouldn't call myself a purist.

[Steel Inquisitor]

manwhohaseverything:
The justification is there because there isn’t much to tie him to Guts, it’s just a random anime character. I didn’t day that wasn’t correct, but there’s more options than being as close as GA Superman and nothing. Nah, modern Superman is like Luffy but more like Goku. There’s far more things to compare characters to each other than that.

We’ve been talking about more then philosophy for a while now. This has never simply just been about philosophy, that’s just one category to compare them about.

That was for more then what Cavill’s did, all he did was scream once and everyone forgot about it. Both dealt with traumas, they weren’t perfect but they did something to acknowledge what happened, and tried to recover like normal people do. During Exile in Superman #28, #33 and Adventures of Superman # 453 all have a focus on the psychological effects from executing the Kryptonians. Death was bought up since it’s shown on the pages how he’s fighting for his life against a relentless monster and gives his life to save the world. It’s not comfy, it’s not luxurious it’s what any super-hero worth their salt would do in his situation.

Which is why the discussion got derailed by Guts, because he was such an odd choice. There are more characters in fiction who have sexual abuse done to them than Guts, he's not a normal person by any stretch of the imagination. How about any others? How about from tv shows, cartoons, novels or movies? Whenever I’ve compared Superman to Goku it’s constantly shut down. Despite the fact they do have things in common. My reading comprehension’s fine. Don’t assume that just because people disagree with you about something.

I didn’t say he wasn’t, I simply stating that he’s just one version of Superman. DC has made numerous others in his footsteps which have had their own trials and tribulations. He’s not the last word on being Superman, he’s just the first.

I know who that Superman is, and he's not really that meaningful since he was never a canon Superman. Comparing Guts to Superman is reaching, the fact a Superman prototype which never got made should tell you how far off he is to modern Superman. Golden Age Superman is a certain character and it’s not him.

I'm trying to have a discussion and it's difficult to have one when the comparison bought up may as well be random anime super-heroes. Having scatter shot examples does neither of any good with this discussion. Just because you can do something doesn’t mean you should.

It’s about doing both, you don’t have to choose. I bought up the comparison earlier, which were ignored. DB/Z is all about morality plays, they’re super-heroes without masks and capes. Goku is about using his martial arts to save the world and protecting everyone, he just also liked to do that by making himself stronger, like many heroes do like batman, so the next time another dangerous threat comes by he’s able to stop them. Superman may not be as geared toward improving himself as Goku but he does that because he gets to a level where he’s confident he doesn’t have to and his powers aren’t skill based like Goku’s. He won’t develop more super-powers by training in martial arts. Wonder Woman is more focused on being the best with training, like in Rucka’s run. She did unorthodox things like getting tips from her enemies like Cheetah when they’re in jail and giving them incentives for good advice. Superman and Goku may not see everything eye to eye but they do have many things in common like their origins, being able to form relationships with numerous people from all walks of like, their fondness for their family and wanting to protect the world/universe. There’s more to Goku than simply fighting for the sake of fighting.

Goldenage superman and goku are both similar. I mean, racing locomotives, jumping higher, running faster.. Etc.

Modern Supermen do that.

Snyder Superman is an exception since he's a modern one you like. The flight was a bright spot in Man of Steel, it's too bad we didn't get more scenes like that. That was a homage to the Golden Age Superman but they moved on from that Superman a long, long time ago by Donner.

Which modern Superman? There is only one Golden Age Superman, there are numerous “modern” Supermen. Golden Age Superman worked at a newspaper as a reporter with Lois Lane and had his parents, he wasn’t a homeless drifter like Jack Reacher. How is modern Superman any different on that? Clark Kent should be allowed to move up in his profession like being a news anchor or getting awards in reporting. This also gives him more access as a reporter to find things to do as Superman, which is why he became a reporter. He can’t do his super-hero job to the biggest capacity if he’s stuck stocking shelves at Wal-Mart.

[SiegePerilous02]

Manwhohaseverything's frequent posts about anime and manga characters come to mind. There is also the frequent calls to make Clark some kind of intergalactic "player" often from people who hate Lois and the frequent whining about Superdad being "patriarchal" or "conservative" or whatever such nonsense.

Hating Lois and wanting him to sleep around because of that is too much I agree, but it's not as if the character revolves around that romance with her either (and it should be vice versa).

I think some of the complaints about post-Crisis/Superdad are actually on point. Superdad was popular for having moments like telling that cynical city slicker Batman that he's wrong for pointing out how bad the world can be while he stands with his nuclear family instead of actually DOING anything.

[Robanker]

Hating Lois and wanting him to sleep around because of that is too much I agree, but it's not as if the character revolves around that romance with her either (and it should be vice versa).

I think some of the complaints about post-Crisis/Superdad are actually on point. Superdad was popular for having moments like telling that cynical city slicker Batman that he's wrong for pointing out how bad the world can be while he stands with his nuclear family instead of actually DOING anything.

I don't think Clark was supposed to be viewed as 100% unassailable, though. Bruce is someone who also neglects his son on the regular and apparently beats them as a method of communication in the King run.

Clark was shown to be overprotective in his own book. It came across as giving him a believable flaw, especially when contrasting him against someone who regularly does very shady stuff while trying to hold a moral high ground.

[manwhohaseverything]

I believe we need a more journalistic perspective on the character. We need an insider for that.i believe, superman stories should have writers that has connections, is in the know, has worked as journalists as consultants or writers. Why? We need to have more indebt stories of clark reporting stories of his world.Moreove,i don't believe clark investigative reporter primarily. I believe clark should be primarily interested in people and societies in general. Lois should be the investigater. Sure, both lois and clark might be able to do each others jobs. I do believe they would find it boring. Besides, i don't think superman is sneaking around type. The guy is bombastic and exuberant. I feel superman would be like this guy .

Man telling obscure stories of his world

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think Clark was supposed to be viewed as 100% unassailable, though. Bruce is someone who also neglects his son on the regular and apparently beats them as a method of communication in the King run.

Clark was shown to be overprotective in his own book. It came across as giving him a believable flaw, especially when contrasting him against someone who regularly does very shady stuff while trying to hold a moral high ground.

Oh not doubt Clark is a better father than what Bruce currently is (though ideally, I think Bruce should be as a good a father and take to the role more comfortably than Clark initially would).

But...eh, we have a lot of problems in the real world as always, and we have the more popular, "cool" character voicing the pretty valid argument that it's easy to be optimistic in the face of such things when you're away from it. And that things need to be done about it. While Superdad just offers an empty platitude of "well, we need to be brighter than the darkness" It's a none statement that doesn't mean anything or solve anything. I tapped out of that thing after the first arc, but looking at DoT's blog (not any more of an unbiased sourced than the rest of us are, but I'm usually on the same page as him as far as Superman goes) but doesn't Jon call him "sir," the family goes on a patriotic family vacation and bemoan how modern movies are violent? He's pretty much straight boring USA Dad, and I don't think that take is beneficial to him at all.

[superduperman]

The reason why DC can't make Superman work is because the fanbase is too divided. They don't know how to appeal to everyone.

[manwhohaseverything]

The reason why DC can't make Superman work is because the fanbase is too divided. They don't know how to appeal to everyone.

Even if fanbase was united like let's say prior to 1986. Do you think it would matter? I mean, It didn't matter when darkknight returns came out. It became a classic. It sold gangbuster so much so dc constantly puts easter eggs about it. Dc just doesn't care about Superman fanbase enough to cater to them especially now. Look at the uproar cap got witb captain nazi portrayal. When superman became a government stooge. There was crickets. Now, we have evil Supermen parade. What's next? Reign of the supermen.if siegel and shuster man reasoning was that a human would get corrupted by power, it might be true. But, i don't think they foresaw that even the alien can be seen as human enough to get corrupted by future generations.

[Laufeyson]

The reason why DC can't make Superman work is because the fanbase is too divided. They don't know how to appeal to everyone.

I think you are right on point. It's hard for us to appease everyone at this point. Some posters love Superman with more anime approach, there are posters like me who love Superman-like how he is in All-Star Superman, and there are some who love the sci-fi of his character. But that's also giving you proof that Superman is a character with a rich setting and development throughout the age, and to be honest, even if DC brings the best Superman writer and artist ever, there is no way that will make everyone happy.

Though I said that, I believe that there is an idea that everyone agreed upon. Whether the setting is Superdad, Man of Tomorrow, or The All-Star Heroes, we want Superman that feels human despite how strong he is. We want Superman to helping people with smile in his face and flying while greeting everyone. We want a great fight in Superman. We want a great interaction between Superman and his casts. We want Superman to be respected by his peer not because of his power, but because of how heroic he is. We want an equal partner group between Superman and Batman where Batman can be hero and then Superman can be a hero too. That's all we want. I think that's not too hard, but I believe it's not that easy too. But if DC can focus on small details like his interaction with cast, the importance of Clark Kent's life to Superman mythos, and have a simple yet engaging story, then I think most of us would be sold on it.

[manwhohaseverything]

I think you are right on point. It's hard for us to appease everyone at this point. Some posters love Superman with more anime approach, there are posters like me who love Superman-like how he is in All-Star Superman,

I think its more, morrison's action comics run and many of the old pulp flavoured siegel and shuster stories than all star. All star is great no doubt. Superman being that kind and compassionate would be what people want. But, there would be other sides to the character. Manga and anime protagonists do generally have other sides to them.

[Laufeyson]

I think its more, morrison's action comics run and many of the old pulp flavoured siegel and shuster stories than all star. All star is great no doubt. Superman being that kind and compassionate would be what people want. But, there would be other sides to the character. Manga and anime protagonists do generally have other sides to them.

You are right about that. The rougher Superman who still has his old pulp flavor is without a doubt a very good representation of Superman that people really enjoy and hell even I know some people who love Injustice Superman because of the video games.

[Flash Gordon]

The reason why DC can't make Superman work is because the fanbase is too divided. They don't know how to appeal to everyone.

100%

That's the problem with dipping into fan service, it's an endlessly slippery slope. The fanbase holds the character back from adapting to the year 2020 and our modern context.

To truly make something new and modern would take a clean break and a forward push from a creative team not beholden to anything but making a quality book.

[PCN24454]

100%

That's the problem with dipping into fan service, it's an endlessly slippery slope. The fanbase holds the character back from adapting to the year 2020 and our modern context.

To truly make something new and modern would take a clean break and a forward push from a creative team not beholden to anything but making a quality book.

I feel like that would require an entirely new character and/or setting.