Controversial Superman Opinions

[Ascended]

I don't see it as DC's fault. They're just the publisher.

And this is where we disagree, my friend. I *do* think it's DC's fault. They're the ones approving writers and stories, assigning editors, etc. And their record with this stuff is, being polite, spotty. I think we can trace Superman's decline, in large part, to DC's choices with the IP. Now sure, there are other factors; some decades have been more accepting and open to Superman's particular brand of heroism while other decades have been more cynical, blah blah blah. But most of the time, most of the fault can always be found with the people in charge. In business, sh*t should always roll uphill.

Now, perhaps it's possible that Clark's setting has become so removed from the modern day that it requires *skilled* talent to handle him well, and average (or below) writers just can't swing it. Maybe that's a possibility. But I really doubt there's much of anything in the mythos that's legit *broken* and more like it just needs some polish and/or an update. Some fresh eyes and fresh angles is certainly in order but the bricks and mortar of the IP is solid, and as you said, more important than ever.

[Flash Gordon]

DC is partly to blame, sure- but not entirely. I'd say that the talent pool there is too small, but that is changing. We're finally getting more diverse talents with unique voices.

A lot of it is the fault of the fandom. The fandom wants a character frozen in amber. Lots of 'facts' and 'lore' with no real character.

I'd be into a Superman comic that actually tackles journalism and makes it actually important to the mythology of the character, but you can be damn sure the fandom would reject that. Just like a change to Clark's job occupation would be rejected. This leaves us in a world of CW storytelling.

[PCN24454]

DC is partly to blame, sure- but not entirely. I'd say that the talent pool there is too small, but that is changing. We're finally getting more diverse talents with unique voices.

A lot of it is the fault of the fandom. The fandom wants a character frozen in amber. Lots of 'facts' and 'lore' with no real character.

I'd be into a Superman comic that actually tackles journalism and makes it actually important to the mythology of the character, but you can be damn sure the fandom would reject that. Just like a change to Clark's job occupation would be rejected. This leaves us in a world of CW storytelling.

Funny enough, it's more important that he has the job than that he actually does it. It's funny how a lot of the characters seem to be squatters and freeloaders.

[godisawesome]

And this is where we disagree, my friend. I *do* think it's DC's fault. They're the ones approving writers and stories, assigning editors, etc. And their record with this stuff is, being polite, spotty. I think we can trace Superman's decline, in large part, to DC's choices with the IP. Now sure, there are other factors; some decades have been more accepting and open to Superman's particular brand of heroism while other decades have been more cynical, blah blah blah. But most of the time, most of the fault can always be found with the people in charge. In business, sh*t should always roll uphill.

Now, perhaps it's possible that Clark's setting has become so removed from the modern day that it requires *skilled* talent to handle him well, and average (or below) writers just can't swing it. Maybe that's a possibility. But I really doubt there's much of anything in the mythos that's legit *broken* and more like it just needs some polish and/or an update. Some fresh eyes and fresh angles is certainly in order but the bricks and mortar of the IP is solid, and as you said, more important than ever.

That’s my general feeling in the matter as well; at some point, the Superman comics slowly became a quicksand of inconstant editorial decisions, a toxic workplace driving away some creators form simple discontent, others from harassment and sexism, and a general cynicism and pessimism about whether anything down on the books would be allowed to stand.

That Our Worlds Of War, Polkistani General Zod era isn’t exactly legendary, and has plenty of elements that I’m sure some Superman fans hate or find boring... but reading through that era still shows a far healthier and productive creative process behind all the books than in the last decade and a half.

Note: I’m not saying there haven’t been great Superman stories in this period, more that DC editorial seems incapable of building on them consistently.

[Laufeyson]

And this is where we disagree, my friend. I *do* think it's DC's fault. They're the ones approving writers and stories, assigning editors, etc. And their record with this stuff is, being polite, spotty. I think we can trace Superman's decline, in large part, to DC's choices with the IP. Now sure, there are other factors; some decades have been more accepting and open to Superman's particular brand of heroism while other decades have been more cynical, blah blah blah. But most of the time, most of the fault can always be found with the people in charge. In business, sh*t should always roll uphill.

Now, perhaps it's possible that Clark's setting has become so removed from the modern day that it requires *skilled* talent to handle him well, and average (or below) writers just can't swing it. Maybe that's a possibility. But I really doubt there's much of anything in the mythos that's legit *broken* and more like it just needs some polish and/or an update. Some fresh eyes and fresh angles is certainly in order but the bricks and mortar of the IP is solid, and as you said, more important than ever.

To be honest it seems that at this point DC and WB really don't care about what Superman is. They just put Superman here and there in the biggest event ever as formalities. I mean the last time Superman become the central figure, in any event, is in the Final Crisis. Aside from that, you can trace it as Batman. But on the other hand, I think that at this point Superman needs something that even a skilled writer or talent could do. I mean Superman's franchise now is in Bendis' hand, and as long as the creative team goes that is the best selling team for Superman. But even than Superman still sold less than expected.

So I think Superman needs to think back to its the root (Jason Aaron's Thor, BND's Spider-Man, Ewing's Immortal Hulk) or think a radicalized idea so marketing that everyone needs to pick it up, but without sacrificing everything that made the character's great (Spencer or Gruenwald's Captain America, Mark Millar stuff).

[Steel Inquisitor]

DC is partly to blame, sure- but not entirely. I'd say that the talent pool there is too small, but that is changing. We're finally getting more diverse talents with unique voices.

A lot of it is the fault of the fandom. The fandom wants a character frozen in amber. Lots of 'facts' and 'lore' with no real character.

I'd be into a Superman comic that actually tackles journalism and makes it actually important to the mythology of the character, but you can be damn sure the fandom would reject that. Just like a change to Clark's job occupation would be rejected. This leaves us in a world of CW storytelling.

DC's got the power over talent pools, fandom isn't really a factor. This is literally their job to find these people, and they've needed to update how they do it since forever. Not that they're alone in this.

[Flash Gordon]

double post, sorry mods

[Flash Gordon]

Funny enough, it's more important that he has the job than that he actually does it. It's funny how a lot of the characters seem to be squatters and freeloaders.

100%

It's just pantomimes, with no real reason for being.

[Ra-El]

To be honest it seems that at this point DC and WB really don't care about what Superman is. They just put Superman here and there in the biggest event ever as formalities. I mean the last time Superman become the central figure, in any event, is in the Final Crisis. Aside from that, you can trace it as Batman. But on the other hand, I think that at this point Superman needs something that even a skilled writer or talent could do. I mean Superman's franchise now is in Bendis' hand, and as long as the creative team goes that is the best selling team for Superman. But even than Superman still sold less than expected.

So I think Superman needs to think back to its the root (Jason Aaron's Thor, BND's Spider-Man, Ewing's Immortal Hulk) or think a radicalized idea so marketing that everyone needs to pick it up, but without sacrificing everything that made the character's great (Spencer or Gruenwald's Captain America, Mark Millar stuff).

Yeah, Ewing's Immortal Hulk for sure, but Aaron's Thor wasn't a great time for Thor the character, it was to the mythos maybe, but for half of Aaron's run Thor was a incompetent drunk and Odin was a senile misogynist, so... they should go with a more Immortal Hulk aproach.

[NaVi]

I think that the inability of DC in regards to superman, is demonstrated with clark being a journalist, the fact that clark is a journalist, it means that he is always up to date with the real world, it means that superman can be a god but he can also have stories that focus more at street level, it means that superman can be the light and clark the darkness, I think a comic of clark (without superman) vs lex would be something incredible.

[Agent Z]

That the Superman fandom seems to think that every story - comics or otherwise - has to be some kind of industry shattering moment or else it has no justifiable reason to exist especially does not help.

Superman is kind of like Star Wars in that the idea of what is the "true" essence of the character has become increasingly toxic to the franchise and the last decade has made this especially clear in regards to both franchises.

[Laufeyson]

I think that the inability of DC in regards to superman, is demonstrated with clark being a journalist, the fact that clark is a journalist, it means that he is always up to date with the real world, it means that superman can be a god but he can also have stories that focus more at street level, it means that superman can be the light and clark the darkness, I think a comic of clark (without superman) vs lex would be something incredible.

Yeah, but DC really doesn't give a two shit about Clark, because in DC's eyes Clark is the disguise and Kal-El is the real Superman. So for most of the writers in DC, they don't care if Clark can fix something by being a journalist as long as Superman or if DC wanted and willing to it, Batman will fix it in more you know superheroic-in-DC-kind of thing.

[Ascended]

DC is partly to blame, sure- but not entirely. I'd say that the talent pool there is too small, but that is changing. We're finally getting more diverse talents with unique voices.

A lot of it is the fault of the fandom. The fandom wants a character frozen in amber. Lots of 'facts' and 'lore' with no real character.

I'd be into a Superman comic that actually tackles journalism and makes it actually important to the mythology of the character, but you can be damn sure the fandom would reject that. Just like a change to Clark's job occupation would be rejected. This leaves us in a world of CW storytelling.

The fandom....yes, partially, but also Superman's legend in the world beyond the established fans. He's one of the most well known fictional characters on the planet and everybody has a very strong opinion of who and what he is, despite not actually knowing anything about him. But again; this image they have? It's built by the limited exposure they have and who is responsible for the content they see? DC and WB. Yes, the company can only do so much about public perception but the point is that they *can* do something about it; that's all marketing is, telling people what to think.

The DC talent pool? Again, DC's fault. How many quality creators did they burn and drive away? How many up-and-coming talent have their failed to recruit? There are countless people who want to break into this industry and who does DC keep around? Lobdell. They decide who to hire and what projects those people get. If DC did their job better, they'd have better talent and would be capable of putting creators on Superman who can actually write him well instead of just doing bad "CW storytelling," as you put it.

Like I said, it's not *all* on DC. There are factors they have no control over. But the vast majority of reasons Superman is in decline? That's all on DC; they're the ones with the authority and creative control. The fans didn't make DC put Berganza in the Super office (for example). The cynical decade didn't make them. Clark himself certainly didn't, since he's not real. And if the last thirty years had seen DC invest in, develop, update, and push Superman like they have Batman, then we wouldn't be talking about how the Daily Planet is a pantomime of real journalism or any of the other problems the franchise has today. It's not like Batman was this pillar of a perfect IP in 1980, but decades of solid effort have turned Gotham into a smooth running franchise. Decades of incompetent administration has turned Superman into a shadow of his true self, and just like Batman's success is on DC, so is Superman's decline.

[SiegePerilous02]

That the Superman fandom seems to think that every story - comics or otherwise - has to be some kind of industry shattering moment or else it has no justifiable reason to exist especially does not help.

Superman is kind of like Star Wars in that the idea of what is the "true" essence of the character has become increasingly toxic to the franchise and the last decade has made this especially clear in regards to both franchises.

What would you define as the true essence of the character that isn't toxic?

What are examples of of fans clamoring for a "true" essence that is toxic?

[Agent Z]

What would you define as the true essence of the character that isn't toxic?

Superman is a hero. Obviously how that will be interpreted will vary.

What are examples of of fans clamoring for a "true" essence that is toxic?

Much of the Super-Wonder's attitude towards Lois being his wife again, a lot of the reaction to the movies and the Supergirl show, the bashing of the Rebirth Superman as a "conservative" .