Controversial Superman Opinions

[NaVi]

The human being likes the easy thing, so if he has something easy that gives profit, most people will leave it like this and enjoy life, for DC Superman (his image) is easy money, that's why instead of creating stories that take the character to a new level, put it aside and every x time they take a story that talks about what superman means (doomsday clock), that's why I think the best thing for superman is that a fan of the character (not the image) takes control of the superman comics, and for 1 or 2 years I take it away from the rest of dc, so that the superverse has a firm foundation, one that is his and does not depend on other characters.

[SiegePerilous02]

Superman is a hero. Obviously how that will be interpreted will vary.

Yeah, but that's every major superhero ever.

Much of the Super-Wonder's attitude towards Lois being his wife again, a lot of the reaction to the movies and the Supergirl show, the bashing of the Rebirth Superman as a "conservative" .

The Lois and some of the Supergirl stuff I will grant you.

The movie reactions have a lot of hyperbole thrown around on both sides, but I don't think every reaction is toxic. if the general consensus for a lot of the fans, critics and general audiences is dislike or apathy i think the negative reactions and criticisms are warranted within reason. People can get what they are going for and it can still not work.

I didn't read much of the Rebirth Superman stuff because I didn't like the convoluted premise and it bored me to tears. But Clark traveling the country with his nuclear family, standing in front of the American flag, and doing stuff like bemoaning the violence in today's movies definitely reads as "Conservative Super Dad" instead of what we were getting before.

[Agent Z]

Yeah, but that's every major superhero ever.

Personally, I don't see the issue. As I said, treating him as if he's more special than any other hero is arguably doing a lot of harm in its own way.

The Lois and some of the Supergirl stuff I will grant you.

The movie reactions have a lot of hyperbole thrown around on both sides, but I don't think every reaction is toxic. if the general consensus for a lot of the fans, critics and general audiences is dislike or apathy i think the negative reactions and criticisms are warranted within reason. People can get what they are going for and it can still not work.

I didn't read much of the Rebirth Superman stuff because I didn't like the convoluted premise and it bored me to tears. But Clark traveling the country with his nuclear family, standing in front of the American flag, and doing stuff like bemoaning the violence in today's movies definitely reads as "Conservative Super Dad" instead of what we were getting before.

Having a nuclear family is not solely a conservative idea. That's giving certain morons way too much validation. I'll give you the flag but this is a character whose costume is red and blue* and whose catchphrase was "truth, justice and the American way" even at his most "liberal". And I'm sure the complaining about too much violence in movies was meant in jest.

* Personally, I think Wonder Woman modelling her costume after the American flag is a bigger issue for a character who isn't American in-universe.

[SiegePerilous02]

Personally, I don't see the issue. As I said, treating him as if he's more special than any other hero is arguably doing a lot of harm in its own way.

But these characters all have something different in their core besides just that. If they didn't, they would not be able to be distinguished from each other. That's not the same as him being more special in all areas to other heroes, just that he is special in his own unique ways that aren't being focused on that much.

What are some actual examples of special treatment causing harm? Because the major one I would think of is the Christ/messiah stuff in the DCEU causing harm to him, but I'm doubting that's the one you mean.

[manwhohaseverything]

Having a nuclear family is not solely a conservative idea. That's giving certain morons way too much validation. I'll give you the flag but this is a character whose costume is red and blue* and whose catchphrase was "truth, justice and the American way" even at his most "liberal". And I'm sure the complaining about too much violence in movies was meant in jest.

* Personally, I think Wonder Woman modelling her costume after the American flag is a bigger issue for a character who isn't American in-universe.

There is enough evidence to prove he is. For example, the family vacation issues. Having red,blue and yellow costume doesn't mean us flag. That's like saying a costume with red colour and yellow circles in it means chinese flag. The "truth, justice and american way" was something tacked later on. Wasn't it? I don't care if there exists a Conservative superman. But, the problem comes when the guy becomes boring and has nothing to say of essence .Rebirth Superman talks a lot but he actually says very little. The kid was more fun to read. As for ww, isn't she an ambassador for peace that chose America as her base?

[Flash Gordon]

Superman rocks primary colours, it's not the US flag. Nor are the colours meant to evoke the US flag.

[Prime]

I don't like Jon, I think he is the reason why Superbro is dead.

[Agent Z]

But these characters all have something different in their core besides just that. If they didn't, they would not be able to be distinguished from each other. That's not the same as him being more special in all areas to other heroes, just that he is special in his own unique ways that aren't being focused on that much.

What are some actual examples of special treatment causing harm? Because the major one I would think of is the Christ/messiah stuff in the DCEU causing harm to him, but I'm doubting that's the one you mean.

Pretty much any story about how him going evil means the world turns to pot and the other heroes either end up dead or join him. Stuff like Kingdom Come which is basically four issues of Mark Waid going "my superhero can beat up your superheroes" and was the beginning of insecure writers needing to bludgeon other characters that didn't fit the Superman mold in order to show how much better he was.

[PCN24454]

Superman rocks primary colours, it's not the US flag. Nor are the colours meant to evoke the US flag.

While I agree with that, the idea of Superman renouncing his US citizenship never sat right with me.

[Vordan]

I don't like Jon, I think he is the reason why Superbro is dead.

Nah. Much as I liked Morrison and Pak’s handling of Superbro, the Superline was a ****show towards the end. Lots of terrible crossovers and the main Superman book was basically trash from start to finish. Superman Unchained not setting the world on fire was the final nail in the coffin imo.

Pretty much any story about how him going evil means the world turns to pot and the other heroes either end up dead or join him. Stuff like Kingdom Come which is basically four issues of Mark Waid going "my superhero can beat up your superheroes" and was the beginning of insecure writers needing to bludgeon other characters that didn't fit the Superman mold in order to show how much better he was.

Kingdom Come I don’t quite agree but I can see your point. But “Superman turning evil and the rest joining him while the world collapses” is always done with the intent to have Batman as the plucky underdog who tears down the “gods” or whatever. Supes “special treatment” is just an excuse for others to rehash the same tired ass Batman vs. Superman fight with Batman in the right as always. Otherwise they’d have to make a story where WW or Aquaman or Flash take Superman down, because all of them are much more obvious choices to handle a rogue Superman. Ultimately it’s all done with the goal of glorifying Batman, not Superman.

Hell both WW and Superman take more crap than Batman in KC too. When did Bruce get taken to task for turning Gotham into a police state? Diana got called out for being a warmonger and the climax of the story is Clark getting called out for how badly he’s made a mess of things.

[manwhohaseverything]

While I agree with that, the idea of Superman renouncing his US citizenship never sat right with me.

He was an anarchist, a vigilante and an outlaw. Technically, his citizenship should be the last thing that needs to be worried about. If we are going to think about it. Every version of the character breaks the law. That's just the nature of being a "superhero" .

Pretty much any story about how him going evil means the world turns to pot and the other heroes either end up dead or join him.

While, i understand your sentiment regarding superman being used to critic characters that didn't fit his mold. (let's be honest maybe even superman doesn't fit his own mold anymore).The idea that Superman turning evil will have no repercussions is absurd. That's like saying the guy has no effect on the world,at all. If superman decides to go evil. He could rule it. Ofcourse, depending on your definition of the character. If superman is supposed to be a limitless being that can do anything and everything. That's what's at stake. If he is supposed to be just a strong alien with laser eyes. Then yeah! World would just have another villain on their hand.

[SiegePerilous02]

Pretty much any story about how him going evil means the world turns to pot and the other heroes either end up dead or join him. Stuff like Kingdom Come which is basically four issues of Mark Waid going "my superhero can beat up your superheroes" and was the beginning of insecure writers needing to bludgeon other characters that didn't fit the Superman mold in order to show how much better he was.

I've never read Kingdom Come and don't really plan to, but what I do know of it doesn't sound great for multiple reasons. That being one of them, but like Vordan said, it also doesn't sound that clear cut or that Clark is without failures there.

Stuff like Injustice does him the biggest disservice of all the characters involved. His "specialness" is not done for his benefit at all. Yeah, other characters get it bad there but the take hasn't stuck to those characters like glue the way it seems to be trying to do with Superman. Wonder Woman got it bad (in which case we should be critical on both their behalfs, not just upset that she gets dragged down with him), but she has the benefit of Gal Gadot being the most visible thing she's in right now. And it's all done to prop up Batman, let's not forget.

I think Superman going evil should have very big consequences, if not the exact way they play out in stuff like Injustice. Like it or not, as one of the company's flagship characters who also built the company and kick started the entire genre as we know it (we literally do not have Batman, Wonder Woman, Captain Marvel and others without his creation), he is more special than a lot of other characters and special in a different way to the others that are on his tier. Both in and out of universe, so his going bad should have big reverberations throughout his fictional world. It should just have more thought put into it than "well I guess Wonder Woman has to join up with him just because."

Our options really shouldn't have to be "generic flying brick superhero who doesn't really stand out from anyone else besides his reputation from the past aspects we don't use anymore" or the DCEU and Injustice takes.

[Ra-El]

Pretty much any story about how him going evil means the world turns to pot and the other heroes either end up dead or join him. Stuff like Kingdom Come which is basically four issues of Mark Waid going "my superhero can beat up your superheroes" and was the beginning of insecure writers needing to bludgeon other characters that didn't fit the Superman mold in order to show how much better he was.

Every time Superman turns evil ends with Batman solving things, usually by beating the crap out of Superman. One of the Injustice fans favorite scenes is when Alfred beat Superman and humiliated him. In the end of Injustice the "good" Superman they brought to save the day is only good because his Lois is alive, if she had died he would be evil too, but we don't have to worry about it, because his Batman is watching him.

Superman portrayal in the media currently, is either as the naive and not very smart farmboy that just happens to have superpowers or as the mentally weak and codependent superpowered guy that will go crazy and burn the world if things don't go his way.

All I want, and probably most fans that aren't very happy with the character lately, is a Superman that stands on his own, that is capable of defeating his own villains, that can think for himself and that DC take a break on doing stories that keeps hammering that his goodness and entire choice of life is dependent on his adoptive parents and Lois, and that removing one of those elements will result in catastrophe in the form of a crazy manchild.

[Sacred Knight]

I don't like Jon, I think he is the reason why Superbro is dead.

Actually he isn't. I hate him too, but while I used to believe as you do, from what I understand now, Jon could have just as easily been introduced while keeping the New 52 Superman around. The end goal was to get him in by any means necessary, but bringing back the old Superman wasn't necessarily tied to that end objective. Different ideas were floated around, even having Jon a lone refugee to the reality I think. But in the end they chose to replace Superman entirely. Jon's the primary reason why the line is absolute trash right now, but he's not necessarily the reason they ditched the New 52 incarnation completely.

[SiegePerilous02]

Really all they had to do was ditch the New 52 costume and replace it with the classic one, and have him and Diana break up so he can at least start a new romantic relationship with Lois. Those were the only two downsides of the post-Flashpoint era.

They did not need to dump the rest of the New 52 foundation at all, he's a lot weaker now because of it. There really wasn't a lot worth keeping from the post-Crisis era besides some stuff like John Henry and Maggie Sawyer, who made it into the New 52 anyway.