Controversial Superman Opinions

[superduperman]

Really all they had to do was ditch the New 52 costume and replace it with the classic one, and have him and Diana break up so he can at least start a new romantic relationship with Lois. Those were the only two downsides of the post-Flashpoint era.

They did not need to dump the rest of the New 52 foundation at all, he's a lot weaker now because of it. There really wasn't a lot worth keeping from the post-Crisis era besides some stuff like John Henry and Maggie Sawyer, who made it into the New 52 anyway.

Agreed, I firmly believe that the costume and the WW relationship was the main reason New 52 failed. Both were either avoidable or could have been changed. That, and Jim Lee should NOT be designing costumes! He gave Cyclops a bandolier of pouches! What is a guy whose primary power is eye beams going to do with a bunch of pouches?

[Last Son of Krypton]

I don't like Jon, I think he is the reason why Superbro is dead.

He was the catalyst of the decisions made back then. In 2016's interviews, you had Jurgens mentioning his pushing Jon to ending up in the main continuity as what led to bringing back his old SM too.

I feel Dan is probably still patting his own back for the accomplishment.

Actually he isn't. I hate him too, but while I used to believe as you do, from what I understand now, Jon could have just as easily been introduced while keeping the New 52 Superman around. The end goal was to get him in by any means necessary, but bringing back the old Superman wasn't necessarily tied to that end objective. Different ideas were floated around, even having Jon a lone refugee to the reality I think. But in the end they chose to replace Superman entirely. Jon's the primary reason why the line is absolute trash right now, but he's not necessarily the reason they ditched the New 52 incarnation completely.

They were looking for the best way to move him from a dead timeline to the main continuity and the best way Jurgens came up with was to have Jon's family hiding with him for the whole time in the new world.

But, yeah, as he told, when Dan started pushing to Didio that the kid could be the future of the franchise and he should end up somehow in the main continuity, he suggested he could be put on a rocket or something. It was a random idea though. DiDio wanted the baby to be aged up, and Jurgens suggested the idea of the whole family hiding and Jon "aging up" there. The rest is history.

[Stanlos]

True but it’s still a story where Superman is portrayed as the sun the entire DCU revolves around. He goes evil and this is all it takes for the world to go to hell. Everyone who joins him basically forgets their own motives and personalities.

Is that a good thing? How is that perceived as anything but bad writing without taking the time to build an alternative set of characters with different perspectives and personalities? I'm this story, WW suddenly is a basic Eve trope completely antithetical to what her character is about. Why would she with her mission and design be ON SUPES team rather than the primary opposition?

Why would Aquaman who literally wields the largest kingdom and military on earth tolerate Supes shenanigans for even a moment?

I am not even going to get started on Captain Marvel.

[Stanlos]

The New Gods predate Kirby even moving to DC. They weren't created to be put in Superman's universe. They were created to be their own thing. he originally had planned to do them at Marvel.
They first showed up in Jimmy Olsen because Kirby asked to be put on DC's lowest selling book.

Carabas, was it a mistake to try to mingle The Fourth World with regular DCU? Perhaps even to greater extent than co-mingling all its other characters?

[Vordan]

Is that a good thing? How is that perceived as anything but bad writing without taking the time to build an alternative set of characters with different perspectives and personalities? I'm this story, WW suddenly is a basic Eve trope completely antithetical to what her character is about. Why would she with her mission and design be ON SUPES team rather than the primary opposition?

Why would Aquaman who literally wields the largest kingdom and military on earth tolerate Supes shenanigans for even a moment?

I am not even going to get started on Captain Marvel.

Injustice WW is awful, only character I’d say is worse than Superman. That origin they gave to “explain” her was crap too. “Steve was secretly a Nazi and I hate Nazis so I killed Steve. That’s why when Superman founded a totalitarian Regime with concentration camps, I couldn’t wait to sign up!” like what the **** kind of backstory is that? She killed Steve for being a fascist but loves Superman for being one, and kept egging him on down that path?

Injustice Aquaman is just straight up Namor. He sucks, all he cares about is “muh Atlantis”. NRS is crap and Taylor can’t write anyone outside of Batman and the Batman character well.

[superduperman]

He was the catalyst of the decisions made back then. In 2016's interviews, you had Jurgens mentioning his pushing Jon to end in the main continuity as what led to bringing back his old SM.

I feel Dan is probably still patting his own back for the accomplishment.



They were looking for the best way to move him from a dead timeline to the main continuity and the best way Jurgens came up with was to have his own family hiding with him for the whole time in the new world.

Yeah, as he told, when Dan first was pushing with Didio that the kid could be the future of the franchise and he should end up somehow in the main continuity, he suggested he could be put on a rocket or something. It was a random idea though. DiDio wanted the baby aged up, and Jurgens had the idea of the whole family hiding and Jon "aging up" there. The rest is history.

I think the moment they suggested the pre-Flashpoint Superman was still alive, New 52 Superman was doomed. When COIE was finished, DC knew they couldn't have the pre-Crisis Superman still around somewhere if the new one was going to be accepted. Convergence kind of threw a wrench into the New 52.

[Gaius]

Is that a good thing? How is that perceived as anything but bad writing without taking the time to build an alternative set of characters with different perspectives and personalities? I'm this story, WW suddenly is a basic Eve trope completely antithetical to what her character is about. Why would she with her mission and design be ON SUPES team rather than the primary opposition?

Why would Aquaman who literally wields the largest kingdom and military on earth tolerate Supes shenanigans for even a moment?

I am not even going to get started on Captain Marvel.

Well, they at least they tried to explain how Supes got where he did, you can debate/argue if they did it well, but by the standards of the series poor writing other characters you could say got done dirtier.

For the others? NRS didn't care about character alignment other than "Superman = bad, Batman/Harley = good", which I guess is fine for the first game since there's a time jump and so you can fill in the blanks yourself. When they did try to fill in the blanks with the comics, Taylor and the other writers on the comic tie-ins simply didn't care to explain how they got from Point A to Point Z.

[witchboy]

Really all they had to do was ditch the New 52 costume and replace it with the classic one, and have him and Diana break up so he can at least start a new romantic relationship with Lois. Those were the only two downsides of the post-Flashpoint era.

They did not need to dump the rest of the New 52 foundation at all, he's a lot weaker now because of it. There really wasn't a lot worth keeping from the post-Crisis era besides some stuff like John Henry and Maggie Sawyer, who made it into the New 52 anyway.

Restoring the classic costume and dumping Diana for Lois would've been an improvement, but I was much much happier to have the pre Flashpoint Superman and Lois back. I hated New 52 so restoring two of my favorite pre Flashpoint characters was a big olive branch for me.
I like Jon, and I'm glad they brought him into the series. I just wish they had handled him better in the last couple of years instead of letting Lois and Clark be awful parents letting Jon go off with Jor-El, and then agreeing to him going off to the future after he returned to them nearly grown and not dealt with the years of abuse. I would be pleased if they found a way to twist time and get their little boy back.

[manwhohaseverything]

Restoring the classic costume and dumping Diana for Lois would've been an improvement, but I was much much happier to have the pre Flashpoint Superman and Lois back. I hated New 52 so restoring two of my favorite pre Flashpoint characters was a big olive branch for me.
I like Jon, and I'm glad they brought him into the series. I just wish they had handled him better in the last couple of years instead of letting Lois and Clark be awful parents letting Jon go off with Jor-El, and then agreeing to him going off to the future after he returned to them nearly grown and not dealt with the years of abuse. I would be pleased if they found a way to twist time and get their little boy back.

For me, i doubt it would change anything for clois .i don't particularly find a character that tries to be everyone's dad and has a huge messiah complex appealing. Lois barely has anything that separates her character from clark. She barely has different view points on the action itself. She is just female clark kent. A bit more sassy. But, that just proves clark is just bland as a character.Ofcourse,bendis tried to rectify that with his run. But, it was a failed attempt. Lois book was focused on other things. Coming back to the point Ofcourse, jon would be free of being made into clark kent 2.0 in the main line.But then again, that's happening when many writers do write the character. To offset that there are writer who can handle the character. The kid was never the problem. Superman and lois is. As soon as the kid goes away it becomes abundantly clear.They just don't have anything going for them. They are one dimensional. They are entirely boring and on top of that give speeches that have little meaning. They are essentially, pa and ma kent. They are meant to shove "morality" down everyone.

[Ra-El]

For me, i doubt it would change anything for clois(atleast for me) .i don't particularly find a character that tries to be everyone's dad and has a huge messiah complex appealing. Lois barely has any that separates her character from clark. She barely has different view points on the action itself. She is just female clark kent. A bit more sassy. But, that just proves clark is just bland as characters. Ofcourse, jon would be free of being made into clark kent 2.0 in the main line.But then again, that's happening when many writers do write the character. The kid was never the problem. Superman and lois is.They just don't have anything going for them. They are one dimensional. They are entirely boring and on top of that give speeches that have little meaning. They are essentially, pa and ma kent. They are meant to shove "morality" down everyone.

My take is that the problem is never the characters but the writers and editors. Superman and Lois can work as a couple, imo, and Jon can work too.
DC just have to give up on the "Superman is the moral center of the DCU" and start to treat him as a character instead of a narrative landmark.

[manwhohaseverything]

My take is that the problem is never the characters but the writers and editors. Superman and Lois can work as a couple, imo, and Jon can work too.
DC just have to give up on the "Superman is the moral center of the DCU" and start to treat him as a character instead of a narrative landmark.

I wasn't talking about them as couple.I was talking about them as individual characters. There is nothing to attract me towards them. I like lois because she is jon's strict mother. I like clark because he is jon's dork father. Jon and damian books can put the superman/batman books and superbooks to shame. The kid feels more like a protagonist material. Clark? Not so much. Heck! Kathy felt like she had something going for her compared to lois, as the alien refugee that was manchester black's underling. And i am talking since rebirth. Even now, the entire legion feels like they have things on their hands and things that they are messing up compared to lois and clark.
I barely feel anything towards them as characters.The only time i felt anything was when sam died. That was because the sam's characterisation as the spy with ideals, convictions and resolve dealing with his family situation was good. It wasn't because of lois.
Don't take me wrong, There is a fine line between an idealist and a guy that tries to preach it with no essence. I love a good idealist characters like say luffy or captain america. Because idealists are generally guys with strength of resolve and conviction. They plant their feet when the whole world goes nuts.I doubt i could get anything like luffy declaring war on world government or cap going fugitive from superman

morrison's superman felt like "the man who has everything". Current superman is the man of who has everything. Heck! Jason feels more like the goldenage guy than preflashpoint clark sometimes, now. Especially, with the whole bizzaro arc. The outlaw defending the weak and the oppressed

[Jackalope89]

Restoring the classic costume and dumping Diana for Lois would've been an improvement, but I was much much happier to have the pre Flashpoint Superman and Lois back. I hated New 52 so restoring two of my favorite pre Flashpoint characters was a big olive branch for me.
I like Jon, and I'm glad they brought him into the series. I just wish they had handled him better in the last couple of years instead of letting Lois and Clark be awful parents letting Jon go off with Jor-El, and then agreeing to him going off to the future after he returned to them nearly grown and not dealt with the years of abuse. I would be pleased if they found a way to twist time and get their little boy back.

Right there with you. I was originally going to get into comics in the early New52 era. But when I saw the directions so many titles were going, especially Superman, I did a hard pass. So Rebirth was a big gateway for me to get into the comics with characters I wanted to read. Alas, most of that lasted only a couple of years before a drastic tone shift hit most of the comics.

[Laufeyson]

For Superman to sell, he needs Batman. Look at Wonder Woman, she never got an event, but with the help of Batman's centric events, she finally got a little spotlight. So, I have a theory let's make him a Robin to Batman by making him adopted by Bruce Wayne. I mean Scott Snyder did it for WW, I'm sure he wanted to write a similar story for Superman.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

For Superman to sell, he needs Batman. Look at Wonder Woman, she never got an event, but with the help of Batman's centric events, she finally got a little spotlight. So, I have a theory let's make him a Robin to Batman by making him adopted by Bruce Wayne. I mean Scott Snyder did it for WW, I'm sure he wanted to write a similar story for Superman.

Scott Snyder made Diana a Robin/Batgirl?

Well Max Landis wanted to do a story called Agent of Batman so.....there is precedent.

[Gaius]

Scott Snyder made Diana a Robin/Batgirl?

Well Max Landis wanted to do a story called Agent of Batman so.....there is precedent.

Think it's referring to one of Capullo's covers or Diana playing the pep-talk giver to Bruce in Death Metal.