Controversial Superman Opinions

[kalai]

I was thinking of making him look Israeli.

Wasn't Superman in The Nail an Amish or something.

[Alpha]

I don't believe in race bending. If you want a non-white Superman, make a new character. John Henry Irons is a wonderful example of an amazing "Black Superman."

If you want a non-black Blade, Black Panther, Luke Cage etc. make a new character. Don't race swap.

AND... while we're on this little chestnut... DON'T DE-UNIQUE the main hero. Don't make an alternate Batman, Batman 2, 2nd, 3rd or 4th Blue Beetle etc. Sidekicks dont matter much, but by the time you get to the 19th Robin and characters like Gotham Girl and Duke Thomas? So much for Batman being a loner aye?

Point being, if you want another Superman, Batman etc. Make Your Own. Miles Morales needs a new monicker because that Parker guy is the one they call Spider-man.

Ok you've shared your opinion. I disagree entirely. I will never agree with the absolute notion that a famous character's ethnicity cannot be changed. Which doesn't mean that i wouldn't resist to some changes. I think Guy Gardner is funniee if he is white. He would still be a good character and funny if he had brown skin, or was middle eastern, but being white just levels up a bit and I would rather they didn't change it. Superman however has absolutely no reason to be white.

[Alpha]

I was thinking of making him look Israeli.

I mean, there are tons of israelis that look absolutely white. And there are dark skinned israelis as well. But I understand what you mean. I'm just wondering why middle eastern in particular. Is there a thematic reason?

[Comics N' Toons]

Ok you've shared your opinion. I disagree entirely. I will never agree with the absolute notion that a famous character's ethnicity cannot be changed. Which doesn't mean that i wouldn't resist to some changes. I think Guy Gardner is funniee if he is white. He would still be a good character and funny if he had brown skin, or was middle eastern, but being white just levels up a bit and I would rather they didn't change it. Superman however has absolutely no reason to be white.

I can agree with you on the point about certain characters changing ethnicity, but the biggies like Superman? Batman? The ones who have been around for more than 50 years? Changing ethnicity messes too much with iconography. Why can't you just create new characters IF you want a more ethnic version of characters like that?

[manwhohaseverything]

I mean, there are tons of israelis that look absolutely white. And there are dark skinned israelis as well. But I understand what you mean. I'm just wondering why middle eastern in particular. Is there a thematic reason?

he was created by a couple of jews.He was essentially a power fantasy as well.I felt a sense that his stories were acting out on moral indignation as well.But ofcourse,the stories weren't driven by emotions and just that.Superman usually knew his way around the town and problems of it.He had goofed up and tried rectify things as well. I have to believe these things came from the creators.I mean,superman's return to krypton screams of longing for a home.Atleast for me.There was moses parallels to the character.

[Steel Inquisitor]

I can agree with you on the point about certain characters changing ethnicity, but the biggies like Superman? Batman? The ones who have been around for more than 50 years? Changing ethnicity messes too much with iconography.

Super-hero properties are constantly changing, it's not like Superman's had had much needed changes over the years. Lana's been Asian, Pete Ross, Zod and Perry White have been black, Lex authors been Greek. Maintaining a tradition for tradition sake is not a very compelling argument, especially when the reasons for those creative decisions were forced by racism from the 1930's. How does that change their iconology exactly? All it does is inject much needed real world ethnicities which would have been a thing, especially if those concepts were created today. Catwoman's black in the next Batman movie!

Why can't you just create new characters IF you want a more ethnic version of characters like that?

Why do you think it has to be one or the other? We can have both. Making Superman Native America won't make John Henry Irons white.

[Alpha]

Super-hero properties are constantly changing, it's not like Superman's had had much needed changes over the years. Lana's been Asian, Pete Ross, Zod and Perry White have been black, Lex authors been Greek. Maintaining a tradition for tradition sake is not a very compelling argument, especially when the reasons for those creative decisions were forced by racism from the 1930's. How does that change their iconology exactly? All it does is inject much needed real world ethnicities which would have been a thing, especially if those concepts were created today. Catwoman's black in the next Batman movie!



Why do you think it has to be one or the other? We can have both. Making Superman Native America won't make John Henry Irons white.

Yup yup yup

[DochaDocha]

Ok you've shared your opinion. I disagree entirely. I will never agree with the absolute notion that a famous character's ethnicity cannot be changed. Which doesn't mean that i wouldn't resist to some changes. I think Guy Gardner is funniee if he is white. He would still be a good character and funny if he had brown skin, or was middle eastern, but being white just levels up a bit and I would rather they didn't change it. Superman however has absolutely no reason to be white.

I respect that your opinion is no less valid than my own, but I do think we're in a funny spot if within three sentences we're arguing that Guy Gardner is funnier if he's white but Superman has absolutely no reason to be white.

If part of Clark Kent is that he's a nondescript fellow who easily blends in, or gets lost in, both rural and urban America, you should start with a white guy as your template. In my opinion, if you wanted to reboot Superman to be Black, Asian, Hispanic, Native American, whatever, you should also retool Clark Kent. You can't just do a palette swap on the panels. It should come with some substantive change, too, and with those changes you run the risk of losing some aspect of the character. The flip side, of course, is that your changes might be a hit, but this isn't an arbitrage situation.

I don't agree with the argument that nothing about Superman is tied to whiteness. I think that Clark Kent is so bland in both the Heartland and East Coast strongly implies white. Demographics studies probably indicate that this will change decades down the line, but this is where we are today. I'm certainly not saying that Kansas doesn't have minorities, but if you look at a population heat map of Kansas, most of the counties there are 90+% white. The state's demographic of 86% white reflects high minority populations in urban areas such as Kansas City and Wichita, but the rural areas see a lot less diversity.

Of course, that raises the question of whether or not Clark Kent needs to be from Kansas, but that just circles back to my point that if you want to make racial changes to the character, you probably have to make a lot of wholesale changes, too. I'm not saying these are bad, but if you want Clark's story to feel a bit more authentic, you gotta make sure the details line up properly.

(This is kind of going into snark territory, so apologies in advance, but when people say "Nothing about this character speaks to whiteness," or such, what exactly does a character need in order to be tied to white? Joining the Klan? Being born in Scandinavia? Being a Klan member of Scandinavian origin?)

Total aside, but this is even more true for Bruce Wayne. The Wayne family represents generational wealth. One day, I hope, that won't be exclusive to white people, but as of today most people who come from generations of wealth and privilege are white folks. I'm an Asian guy, so I like to see Asian characters used well, but I have no desire to read the tale of how Bruce Wang's family came to Gotham 100 years ago from China and became prominent, and socially embraced, benefactors for the city. It just wouldn't ring true to me. If Batman's still around 100 years from now, I hope we can tell stories of non-WASPy characters whose family came to the US a century ago and accumulated wealth that was passed down through generations, but as of today, that same story would feel false.

Racebending, if you're lucky, ends up being kind of a zero-sum game. It's incumbent on the creator to make sure whatever ends up getting lost is made up for by what's added. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. But I'll save my most controversial point for last: if you don't want your favorite character racebent, you shouldn't have to defend that position.

[Alpha]

he was created by a couple of jews.He was essentially a power fantasy as well.I felt a sense that his stories were acting out on moral indignation as well.But ofcourse,the stories weren't driven by emotions and just that.Superman usually knew his way around the town and problems of it.He had goofed up and tried rectify things as well. I have to believe these things came from the creators.I mean,superman's return to krypton screams of longing for a home.Atleast for me.There was moses parallels to the character.

Ok it makes sense. I'd be fine with that.

[manwhohaseverything]

Yeah!the way he hides would seriously need to change,If race change at all done.But then again, was the glasses persona ever truly invisible?I mean i never got the sense that clark was guy who left no trails,who does get lost in the crowd.That he is this figure that we wouldn't be able to detect even if he lived in a room two days ago that we are standing on today.A man who generates no human presense.Clark might be a genius.But,that's diabolically genius. That would be scary as heck,not just harmless white lie to protect oneself.That's creepy.The invisible man take,i mean.

Every incarnation had him standout.Either as confident reporter who asks tough questions or as a guy that trips over himself.Clark kent with glasses isn't exactly invisible.He had run-ins with princesses and dated them.The guy played wimp enough to stand out in most incarnations and in other confident enough to get noticed.The racist/stereo typical connotation would be added to the insults to the persona by the general public.Even if Only to prove them wrong when clark shows his braver side and through his writing changes views of people.(That's how the persona works.Clark is a wimp one second or atleast seen by the public/lois as a bore like in dcau/postcrisis and brave the other.Essentially,jackie chan.There is also the fourthwall shenanigans regarding the disguise).It's risky and could get a blow back.So,i don't know.

[Comics N' Toons]

I'm totally fine with diversity... in fact, I think we need far more ethnic minorities as superheroes. But a non-white Clark Kent goes against 82 years of history. I absolutely agree that... had white supremacy not been a thing in the heyday of comics, there would have been more non-white heroes and far less racist demonization during the war years.

Superman's history is such that... black Kryptonians can come out of the Phantom Zone or be introduced via the multi-verse etc. I would love to see other characters like Clark... but I don't think, after these decades, that Clark can suddenly be non-white.

I love what the Milestone line did with all of their black superheroess. Those were great comics.

[manwhohaseverything]

I'm totally fine with diversity... in fact, I think we need far more ethnic minorities as superheroes. But a non-white Clark Kent goes against 82 years of history. I absolutely agree that... had white supremacy not been a thing in the heyday of comics, there would have been more non-white heroes and far less racist demonization during the war years.

Superman's history is such that... black Kryptonians can come out of the Phantom Zone or be introduced via the multi-verse etc. I would love to see other characters like Clark... but I don't think, after these decades, that Clark can suddenly be non-white.

I love what the Milestone line did with all of their black superheroess. Those were great comics.

we are not reading the same superman from 1930's.So,80years history doesn't mean anything.

[Alpha]

I respect that your opinion is no less valid than my own, but I do think we're in a funny spot if within three sentences we're arguing that Guy Gardner is funnier if he's white but Superman has absolutely no reason to be white.

If part of Clark Kent is that he's a nondescript fellow who easily blends in, or gets lost in, both rural and urban America, you should start with a white guy as your template. In my opinion, if you wanted to reboot Superman to be Black, Asian, Hispanic, Native American, whatever, you should also retool Clark Kent. You can't just do a palette swap on the panels. It should come with some substantive change, too, and with those changes you run the risk of losing some aspect of the character. The flip side, of course, is that your changes might be a hit, but this isn't an arbitrage situation.

I don't agree with the argument that nothing about Superman is tied to whiteness. I think that Clark Kent is so bland in both the Heartland and East Coast strongly implies white. Demographics studies probably indicate that this will change decades down the line, but this is where we are today. I'm certainly not saying that Kansas doesn't have minorities, but if you look at a population heat map of Kansas, most of the counties there are 90+% white. The state's demographic of 86% white reflects high minority populations in urban areas such as Kansas City and Wichita, but the rural areas see a lot less diversity.

Of course, that raises the question of whether or not Clark Kent needs to be from Kansas, but that just circles back to my point that if you want to make racial changes to the character, you probably have to make a lot of wholesale changes, too. I'm not saying these are bad, but if you want Clark's story to feel a bit more authentic, you gotta make sure the details line up properly.

(This is kind of going into snark territory, so apologies in advance, but when people say "Nothing about this character speaks to whiteness," or such, what exactly does a character need in order to be tied to white? Joining the Klan? Being born in Scandinavia? Being a Klan member of Scandinavian origin?)

Total aside, but this is even more true for Bruce Wayne. The Wayne family represents generational wealth. One day, I hope, that won't be exclusive to white people, but as of today most people who come from generations of wealth and privilege are white folks. I'm an Asian guy, so I like to see Asian characters used well, but I have no desire to read the tale of how Bruce Wang's family came to Gotham 100 years ago from China and became prominent, and socially embraced, benefactors for the city. It just wouldn't ring true to me. If Batman's still around 100 years from now, I hope we can tell stories of non-WASPy characters whose family came to the US a century ago and accumulated wealth that was passed down through generations, but as of today, that same story would feel false.

Racebending, if you're lucky, ends up being kind of a zero-sum game. It's incumbent on the creator to make sure whatever ends up getting lost is made up for by what's added. Sometimes it works, and sometimes it doesn't. But I'll save my most controversial point for last: if you don't want your favorite character racebent, you shouldn't have to defend that position.

Manwhohaseverything kind of made my argument (even though it seems he still took the opposite conclusion. Clark Kent doesn't have to be a truly indistinguishable guy. He doesn't have to have the most bland face there is (and I don't even know how you would describe this. He just has to be someone that you wouldn't expect to be Superman. This means clothes, attitude, etc. And honestly, Native American probably wouldn't be a good choice, but Southern American with mixed blood? It could totally workwork, and "Black" would work too.

[manwhohaseverything]

Actually,i didn't come to any conclusion.I said,i don't know.what i feel is,they would need to try to know.It is a risk.Race is a big subject.I don't want to treat with triviality.I would want anyone to respect whatever ethnicity clark has.

[Stanlos]

Those are different nationalities and origins. His appearance doesn't change in any of those.

I am afraid his appearance changes from artist to artist. No two have the same skull structure or body type so I don't see why his "skin color" need be any more locked down. There is a WILD variation in all of the characters appearances.