Controversial Superman Opinions

[Powerboy]

He was running at lightspeed by Action Comics 5.

Yes because narrative text and hyperbole override what's actually happening in the story. There are references in comics to all sorts of characters, including Batman, moving faster than the speed of light. Since Superman is never portrayed as anywhere close to that fast in the stories of that time, clearly a figure of speech- unless you have actual feats of him doing it.

Hint: I've read all of the early stories. He isn't.

[Powerboy]

Which cut is canon is up in the air at this point, if it even matters. But the Snyder cut is regarded as the better of the two and the "true" version by most fans, even those that otherwise don't like it. So most are going to lean towards that version at this point.



Superman wasn't designed to live in the same universe as all these other heroes in the first place, but here we are. Everyone makes some sacrifices to get this shared universe to work, and conceding that Flash is faster really isn't much of one at all




He's the archetype of the flying brick, which yes includes speed. But the speedster archetype focuses on speed exclusively, so it's fair to give it the edge in that area. People think of Superman as fast, but they think of strength and flight first, and thinking of Superman as extremely fast doesn't mean people don't think the Flash is faster.

Also, people thinking of flight first also doesn't change the fact that he used to just leap and got flight only after Captain Marvel.

The official stance is that the theatrical movie is still canon although a growing fan reaction is that the Snyder Cut is canon. Right now, everybody doesn't have HBO or HBO-Max so fewer have seen it. I personally like elements from each but the movie is, for now, canon.

I've been reading the early Golden Age Green Lantern stories. Interestingly, he is in Metropolis in some stories and there is zero mention of Superman. They are clearly using Metropolis in it's meaning of an overwhelmingly big city. Everyone is amazed at the unprecedented fact of a guy with super powers. In those days, indeed, just being published by the same company did not mean existing in the same setting. GL clearly does not exist in the same world as Superman or Batman. Even the Spectre, created by Siegal and Schuster, doesn't seem to exist in the same "reality" as Superman. I met a guy who was old enough to remember when the first crossover of Superman and Batman happened and he could not believe they seriously expected the readers, even children, to believe those two characters existed in the same "reality".

I have no real problem with the Flash being faster. For me, it was only when he was getting so much faster that Superman wasn't even close that it became an issue. Although I prefer the stories where iot is never clear who is really faster because they are generally fun stories where two friends are just getting a bit too competitive. In those old stories, the Flash seems to be the one who cares who is faster because that's all he's got. Superman doesn't seem to care who is faster and would rather not get into it.

[Superfan90]

It is.You want me to post an image action comics#8?

what's canon?Define it for me.

You think Flash hasn't seen contradictory statements about his speed?

[Superfan90]

And the powers of these characters shouldn't be defined in comparison with the others. 99% of Superman stories don't need Superman to be much faster than a jet, whereas a lot of Flash stories need the character to be faster than light.

Which Flash story needs him to be faster than Superman?

[Alpha]

Which Flash story needs him to be faster than Superman?

The ones where he travels back in time by being faster than light, the ones where he enters Flash time and moves so fast that the whole world seems to be frozen for an entire hour.

[Superfan90]

Which cut is canon is up in the air at this point, if it even matters. But the Snyder cut is regarded as the better of the two and the "true" version by most fans, even those that otherwise don't like it. So most are going to lean towards that version at this point.

The company and Snyder himself said that the Snyder Cut isn't canon. What fans think is irrelevant.

Superman wasn't designed to live in the same universe as all these other heroes in the first place, but here we are. Everyone makes some sacrifices to get this shared universe to work, and conceding that Flash is faster really isn't much of one at all

But it should be when both were rivals for almost 30 years without any impact on Flash's stories. This "Flash has to be faster" thing is the result of post Crisis era where Superman is nothing but random amalgamation of ideas and where comic writers are almost ashamed to write him as he was conceived.

He's the archetype of the flying brick, which yes includes speed. But the speedster archetype focuses on speed exclusively, so it's fair to give it the edge in that area. People think of Superman as fast, but they think of strength and flight first, and thinking of Superman as extremely fast doesn't mean people don't think the Flash is faster.

Gee, I'm sorry but that wasn't the case when Jay Garrick was created or when Barry Allen was created. Why must it be now?

Also, people thinking of flight first also doesn't change the fact that he used to just leap and got flight only after Captain Marvel.

He really didn't.

[Superfan90]

Yes because narrative text and hyperbole override what's actually happening in the story. There are references in comics to all sorts of characters, including Batman, moving faster than the speed of light. Since Superman is never portrayed as anywhere close to that fast in the stories of that time, clearly a figure of speech- unless you have actual feats of him doing it.

Hint: I've read all of the early stories. He isn't.

Fan theories are just that, fan theories. Your opinion that the printed word is wrong is nonsensical, this isn't a battle board.

Yeah right, because Action Comics 5 is invalidated because you said so.

[Superfan90]

The ones where he travels back in time by being faster than light, the ones where he enters Flash time and moves so fast that the whole world seems to be frozen for an entire hour.

You mean like the thing Superman did before Barry Allen existed and before Jay Garrick pulled such feats?



Superman 61 from 1949. The fact that Superman can't do it because Flash has to be the only one to do it is laughable.

[NaVi]

WW and Supes (along with Billy and MM) should be on par with strength-wise, with Superman being more durable and Diana having the endurance (her Amazonian training gives her that edge). It' crazy to take away one of Diana's defining traits because of the JL. She's strong, has been since 1941, she should be treated that way. Yes. Let the Flash be the fastest man alive, it's in the name. Trying to even out the JL never works and it's stupid. In fact, I say Superman,Wonder Woman, the Flash, Martin the Manhunter should be taken out of the main League, should only be used when they're needed. They should be the reserves (actually the vanguard). Bruce should lead the lead the Justice League full of humans like him and Green Arrow.

Superman was created first, with strength and speed being his base powers. but ww, a character that was created years later, has to be just as strong, because force is one of its powers, flash character that was created years later has to be faster, because speed is one of its powers ( has more powers). The fun of this is not the fact of putting the idea with which ww and flash were created above superman, but the fact that is used as an excuse for not minimizing these characters, forgetting that ww and flash have no weaknesses, but superman yes, which means that with equal powers, superman ends up being less.

[Alpha]

You mean like the thing Superman did before Barry Allen existed and before Jay Garrick pulled such feats?



Superman 61 from 1949. The fact that Superman can't do it because Flash has to be the only one to do it is laughable.

I said that Flash has to be faster than light because he is constantly doing stuff like that. Superman rarely does such a thing. This argument is ridiculous. The problems Superman has have nothing to do with how strong he is, because he will always be portrayed as the strongest one in the justice league. You can keep going but I'm not gonna bother responding because this is so dull. I hate arguing with "fans" that are so overtly insecure about a character's powers. You remind me of those guys that complain that Hulk is "too weak".

[Powerboy]

Fan theories are just that, fan theories. Your opinion that the printed word is wrong is nonsensical, this isn't a battle board.

Yeah right, because Action Comics 5 is invalidated because you said so.

*Sigh* Because you are taking a panel where he is clearly and obviously NOT moving faster than light and declaring he is because the hyperbole narration says he is. And, speaking of battle boards, yes, this kind of "no feat there to be seen" garbage comes up all the time. So just produce one feat in that era where he's actually moving faster than light. Y'know, before he goes back to working for it to outrun bullets and not sure he can make it. And it's not "because I say so". It's because there's not one feat in that era of his doing it.

[Alpha]

I said that Flash has to be faster than light because he is constantly doing stuff like that. Superman rarely does such a thing. This argument is ridiculous. The problems Superman has have nothing to do with how strong he is, because he will always be portrayed as the strongest one in the justice league. You can keep going but I'm not gonna bother responding because this is so dull. I hate arguing with "fans" that are so overtly insecure about a character's powers. You remind me of those guys that complain that Hulk is "too weak".

Ok I might have been too personal there, sorry. I'm just saying that focussing on a characters' power levels feels to me like it drains all the interest from these stories. I never liked those discussions about "who is stronger than who", because that's not what these characters are about to me, and because there is no real answer. It's whatever the company wants. Right now, the company wants Superman to be the strongest member of the Justice League, but be defeatable even without kryptonite. The weirdest part about this whole discussion is that it almost seems like you all want the Justice League to keep fighting each other, because other wise it really doesn't matter who is stronger. They all work together when they are on the Justice League so they might as well be at somewhat of a close level, or balance each other out on a couple different things. In that sense, what matters is that Superman is the most balanced of all as someone that is both super strong, super durable, and can fly and shoot lasers from his eyes. Everything else can just be left to each character and it doesn't take anything away from Superman.

Peace out.

[NaVi]

the idea that superman is the most complete is false. ww have the same physical abilities (strength, speed, endurance) in addition to their own powers that compensate for heat vision and freezing breath, but she is also an expert in combat and has magical weapons. MM has the same powers as superman and a few extras. flash is fast, it can give and steal speed, perceive the future, vibrate its molecules to travel in time or other dimensions. Aguaman has strength, speed, endurance plus his powers of water. Cyborg strength, speed, endurance and all the tegnology of the earth. GL can create anything you can imagine. but best of all, none of them have weaknesses. Superman is not the most complete, he is the most limited (weakness) of the entire JL.

[lotchj]

the idea that superman is the most complete is false. ww have the same physical abilities (strength, speed, endurance) in addition to their own powers that compensate for heat vision and freezing breath, but she is also an expert in combat and has magical weapons. MM has the same powers as superman and a few extras. flash is fast, it can give and steal speed, perceive the future, vibrate its molecules to travel in time or other dimensions. Aguaman has strength, speed, endurance plus his powers of water. Cyborg strength, speed, endurance and all the tegnology of the earth. GL can create anything you can imagine. but best of all, none of them have weaknesses. Superman is not the most complete, he is the most limited (weakness) of the entire JL.

How so??? How is superman the most limited of the JL.

[Jon Clark]

To me the problems with Superman's powers versus other characters isn't so much who is more powerful as much as the scale of difference and the increasing need to one up each other.

In the Silver/Bronze Age a Superman/Flash race was a fun story and always a close thing. It wasn't that one character was literally leaving others in the dust. Superman wasn't belittling Barry's powers. Barry wasn't looking to dominate every person with super-speed. The people the heroes were looking to outperform were the actual villains not each other. If something requiring speed came up in a JLA story then Barry probably handled it, but no one immediately assumed it meant J'onn, Diana, or Clark wasn't up to the task.

Now, Superman spends more time being outclassed by his teammates than he is actually challenged by Zod, Bizarro, or Luthor. Wally isn't content to be "the fastest man alive" he has to be the "fastest being in history". Kara has to be made "more powerful than Superman" as a selling point. Wonder Woman returning to her classic "bounce bullets off bracelets" feats is seen as a slight because she MUST be as invulnerable as Clark or it is a massive sexist trope. No one is able to just perform impressive feats themselves, it doesn't count unless that feat puts some other character down a few pegs.