Controversial Superman Opinions

[Ascended]

You say that DC should utilize the fact that she comes from another dimension, but her design has nothing to do with being from another dimension, her personality has nothing to do with being from another dimension, nothing about her indicates that she comes from another dimension.

I don't think her visual really requires a multiversal component (not all costumes include bits from every idea at play), but if I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time she changed her costume. Easy fix.

The IC origin didn't change her personality, which was part of why it was good, but it reinforced certain things, expanded on others, and complimented what traits and quirks were already there. Could/should it have played a larger role? Obviously, otherwise we wouldn't be having this conversation. But a point in the origin's favor is that it didn't make fundamental changes to who she was; it just made all those things stronger and more clearly defined.

And her origin doesn't have to be a front and center component of her everyday story. Not every Superman story is about Krypton, not every GL story is about being a pilot or watching your dad crash. Karen's origin should have been emphasized more, but it was never the be all end all of PG, and shouldn't be.

Every adaptation of her had to ignore her origin story or massively rewrite it.

She's been adapted? The only larger media showings I've seen since Infinite Crisis are....Injustice 2, and one episode of Super Hero Girls. I think Injustice might have a line or two of dialogue referencing earth-2, and SHG uses the earth-2 origin as well (but in it's weird, making fun of itself way), but while fun, neither were worth much notice. Did she get an actual adaptation somewhere that I missed? An appearance on Supergirl or something?

I honestly want to understand why you feel that the interdimensional refugee origin helps her character.

So, this is why I support this origin.

1. From a business perspective we know it's viable. There is money to be made there. Not Batman money (what is?) but respectable bank. This isn't hypothetical, we've seen it. Risk factors seem low; if the book fails you're only losing mid-level sales revenue. Potential returns seem sizable; look at how much more popular PG became after Infinite Crisis; from not being able to hold anything, to leading two team books and a solo with decent sales. What could the last ten years have looked like for her, had DC simply kept doing what was already working? As a medium-length investment and looking at the gains we got over the short-term, it seems like an effort that could have paid off nicely. I obviously don't have access to DC's balance sheets, but looking at what we know, we know it was working and while nothing says it would have kept working, nothing says it wouldn't either.

2. Creatively, "Dimensional refugee" is a relatively unique niche within modern DC. It's a perspective no one of note can offer. And it opens up story avenues that other characters rarely touch on. It was (and largely still is) a concept that nobody else was offering, that nobody else in DC "owned" and Karen could have made it her own. And still could.

3. Thematically it harkens back to DC's past (they're still known for the multiverse, and it's used in larger media a lot) without actually being beholden to it. It's very DC, but Karen doesn't have to be from earth-2. She just has to come from a dead reality that has some remarkable similarities and differences to the main DCU. It can be called another earth in the multiverse, or a hypertime branch, or a variant timeline, or a pocket dimension, or whatever the hell you have to call it to make it fit around the wider DC cosmology, as long as it's a dead reality from outside the native universe where Karen knew versions of people like Clark, Helena, her next door neighbor, whoever.

4. As I said, it reinforces a lot of who she was already. Her temper, her weird quasi-distant relationship with the Kents, the IC origin compliments all of that and more. This is basically just taking who she was originally, and saying that she remembers surviving the Crisis (even if the continuity of the moment forces that to be metatextual instead of literal), and using that to develop and define her character. It's not reinventing the wheel, it's perfecting it.

And do you think she could work better without it?

You never know. Anything is possible, and sometimes directions nobody expected to work end up becoming definitive. Maybe "Kara's big sister" would throw her into Harley levels of popularity. Y'never know. But what I do know is that the refugee got a small push for a short time, and in that time Karen was more successful than ever. And I know that I've seen a lot of big changes and new directions with PG over the years, some minor and some huge, and the refugee was the only time any of it was successful. Why would I *want* to get rid of the concept?

But again, I reiterate; the problem lies with DC's apathy, not the character. It doesn't actually matter whether the character is broken, or whether a different idea would be more successful, because DC isn't interested anyway. Not in your ideas or mine or anyone else's.

It's like this; I hate country music. Doesn't matter how good the song is or how well crafted the melody is, I won't like it. And I don't like country singers. Tell me Garth Brooks did a rock album (he did, once) and I still won't care (I didn't). Karen is DC's country music. They just don't give a ****, man. On the most basic level. It doesn't matter what idea you come at them with, they see little value in the name of Power Girl, so nothing you attach to that name will be seen as valuable either. *That* is the problem PG fans need solved before anything else matters.

(Of course I understand if none of this interests you. I'm genuinely appreciative of the people having this conversation with me because I want to understand how you view this topic)

My genuine pleasure. I'm always happy to get new perspectives; an opinion is only as strong as the arguments against it and you have valid critiques.

So let me ask; let's say DC does something drastic, like your suggestion of Karen being Kara's sister (or anything big). Is that still Karen or a new character with a old name? As a PG fan, why should I care to follow this new version and what assurances do I have that it won't end up ignored and failed like nearly every other time this has been done?

[DochaDocha]

Robotech isn't even a real story. It's a localization of Macross that mangled the source material. Sure... an interesting story was created, but...

Trust me, you may not find a bigger fanboy of the original 1982 Macross series than me. The franchise has moved on a long time ago so I don't spend much time on the internet anymore about old school Macross stuff, but it might be the one IP I'd pick over Superman. Maybe.

The "Robotech purism" comment was about the old Del Rey novelizations that took some liberties to the "source" material.

[Alpha]

She's been adapted? The only larger media showings I've seen since Infinite Crisis are....Injustice 2, and one episode of Super Hero Girls. I think Injustice might have a line or two of dialogue referencing earth-2, and SHG uses the earth-2 origin as well (but in it's weird, making fun of itself way), but while fun, neither were worth much notice. Did she get an actual adaptation somewhere that I missed? An appearance on Supergirl or something?

I first saw her in the Superman/Batman: Public Enemies movie.

Also, a character visually inspired by Power Girl starred in a few episodes of Justice League Unlimited as "Galatea" (as I said, terrible adaptations). And my point was that I don't see a space for her in any adaptation with her IC origin.

So let me ask; let's say DC does something drastic, like your suggestion of Karen being Kara's sister (or anything big). Is that still Karen or a new character with a old name? As a PG fan, why should I care to follow this new version and what assurances do I have that it won't end up ignored and failed like nearly every other time this has been done?

You can judge that better than me. From what I see, the origin I proposed (with an important addition by marhawkman) keeps, or even reinforces, the appealing aspects of her character.

What I see in Power Girl is a woman in charge who likes to take things into her own hands. She has a healthy amount of nerve and sass. The most curious part about all of this is that eventually she decided take all this atitude into the world of business. She is muscle with a cunning mind that sees how many SOBs get away with BS while superheroes play around with evil wizards, and she decided she wanted to be a fierce counter on both sides.

To me this is a woman on a mission, even though she has allowed her mission to change over the decades. It's not the mindset of an unwilling refugee, it's the mindset of someone who has taken control over her life since long ago, and has been unsatisfied with what she accomplished at times.

It's why to me her stories should all come from her following a purpose she sat out to achieve, and suffering along the way. It's why I like the idea that she left Krypton years before it exploded, and grew distant from her family so she could serve a cause she saw as necessary (like the military). It's why I like the idea of the guilt she would have to overcome from the choices she made. It's also why I like the idea of her being away in space over the decades, and arriving on earth with all the experience she would have as a fully powered Kryptonian crusader. Seeing the many ways others are abused in the universe.

She would have a perspective on life that would allow her to judge whether her distant kryptonian family is doing enough for their own cause. I think it makes much more sense for her to land on earth with all those experiences and choose to become a champion in a more pragmatic manner as a business woman, compared to the versions where she is a refugee.

I can't guarantee that DC would keep this connection, but I think they could see some value in having this type of rich dynamic between two sisters within the DC universe (specially since it would help an iconic character like Supergirl stand out from her cousin even more). Recently, animation has had plenty of success with the complex relationships between sisters: Like Frozen and Arcane (the League of Legends tv show on Netflix)

From what I can see, all I'm doing is sort of replacing the unease between her and Kal-El, with a more instinctive and relateable conflict between sisters, that has a more direct connection with her purpose on Earth as a businesswoman.

You've mentioned that the interdimensional refugee orgin could be used to further develop her as a businesswoman, but I think this makes a lot more sense as a Flash thing, rather than a Superman adjacent thing. But that could be just my own bias.

[Ascended]

Also, a character visually inspired by Power Girl starred in a few episodes of Justice League Unlimited as "Galatea" (as I said, terrible adaptations). And my point was that I don't see a space for her in any adaptation with her IC origin.

I remember Galatea. That was a fun clone, and a good Cadmus story. Shame they did Emil Hamilton dirty like they did (show and comics both) but I still think JLU is one of the better representations of the DCU (for the most part). And I vaguely recall her having a cameo in Public Enemies, though I don't remember her even having any dialogue?

PG doesn't see adaptations often regardless of origin but she *did* have a couple shout outs using the IC backstory. Kinda breaks even; she doesn't get used regardless of where she comes from and on the rare occasion she does, it's usually a tiny cameo or a new character taking elements from her (like Galatea).

You can judge that better than me. From what I see, the origin I proposed (with an important addition by marhawkman) keeps, or even reinforces, the appealing aspects of her character.

To a fair degree it does. It's not a bad origin, though Karen being a space marine opens up a lot of questions about Krypton and why the species is extinct (and why a people so advanced never left their homeworld causes problems already). And I think it forces Karen to adhere to the continuity of the Super line more, which isn't a great thing given how often DC screws with it (look at how that damaged the Legion, for example).

But for the most part, I feel like it's just making PG a Kara-adjacent character instead of a Clark-adjacent one and I don't see the gain there, beyond the slim possibility that a Supergirl writer would be more inclined to use her....but a writer who wants to use PG will do so anyway; many of the stories and comparisons you can make between the two of them can be made with them as literal sisters or with PG being the Kara of another earth and them forming a sisterly bond. They actually did play with this concept a bit during....I think it was One Year Later?

Again, you're blaming the character for her lack of use but the blame lies with DC. It's not that IC made Karen too complex or difficult to use; a new origin is just fixing something that isn't broken and ignoring the real issue at hand. Don't change Karen; change the minds of people at DC who see no value in her regardless of what is done with her. You get what I'm saying right? It doesn't matter if a different origin is better or worse; DC doesn't care in the first place and won't care about any new idea.

As for the business thing....I don't recall if Karen got into business during the original pre-Crisis earth-2 days or if that came later (I *think* it was pre-Crisis). But you're assuming she went into that kind of job as a result of losing her world, which doesn't have to be (and I don't believe is) the case. It's simply something she likes and is good at.

But if we want to connect her refugee status to her job.....you're not wrong that she's a confident woman who knows what she's after and chases her goals. Which is why I've suggested making Starrware an aerospace R&D outfit that Karen secretly uses to monitor the Bleed for multiversal threats. Or look for her homearth, if she believes it might have survived (JSA did a thing with this for a while).

[Alpha]

I remember Galatea. That was a fun clone, and a good Cadmus story. Shame they did Emil Hamilton dirty like they did (show and comics both) but I still think JLU is one of the better representations of the DCU (for the most part). And I vaguely recall her having a cameo in Public Enemies, though I don't remember her even having any dialogue?

She had a big enough role in the movie, probably in the top 6 characters with the most lines. But her characterization was totally wrong. She was timid and insecure.

PG doesn't see adaptations often regardless of origin but she *did* have a couple shout outs using the IC backstory.

Where? I was not aware of this.

To a fair degree it does. It's not a bad origin, though Karen being a space marine opens up a lot of questions about Krypton and why the species is extinct (and why a people so advanced never left their homeworld causes problems already). And I think it forces Karen to adhere to the continuity of the Super line more, which isn't a great thing given how often DC screws with it (look at how that damaged the Legion, for example).

you're probably right in that regard, but there are easy ways to change the reason why she would leave Krypton pre-emptively. And then again, the multiverse is also always getting messed with.

But for the most part, I feel like it's just making PG a Kara-adjacent character instead of a Clark-adjacent one and I don't see the gain there, beyond the slim possibility that a Supergirl writer would be more inclined to use her....but a writer who wants to use PG will do so anyway; many of the stories and comparisons you can make between the two of them can be made with them as literal sisters or with PG being the Kara of another earth and them forming a sisterly bond. They actually did play with this concept a bit during....I think it was One Year Later?

I do think it's a huge incentive thanks to all the juicy conflicts and stories that would rise from them being sisters with unresolved issues as long as it didn't change their individual goals and characterization (and there are many reasons why it could reinforce them).

As far as everything else you wrote, I get it, and the ideas aren't bad at all, but I still think it leaves her as a difficult character to get into and a hard character to explain in adaptations (unless the story is entirely about her origin).

Thank you for thus whole conversatiom, I really appreciate it.

[Ascended]

She had a big enough role in the movie, probably in the top 6 characters with the most lines. But her characterization was totally wrong. She was timid and insecure.

Well my vague and fuzzy memories of that cartoon are even worse than I thought then.

Where? I was not aware of this.

The ones I mentioned earlier; Injustice 2 and Super Hero Girls. I think, within the context of the stories being told and the super minor element Karen plays in both, they handled her as well as could be reasonably expected. Which is kinda sad, actually....

you're probably right in that regard, but there are easy ways to change the reason why she would leave Krypton pre-emptively. And then again, the multiverse is also always getting messed with.

It absolutely is. I actually support Karen *not* being from earth-2 for that reason; DC can't decide what to do with it. Make it "earth 2.5" instead; something self-contained that can, in the broad strokes, endure DC's constant reshuffling of reality and history.

I do think it's a huge incentive thanks to all the juicy conflicts and stories that would rise from them being sisters with unresolved issues as long as it didn't change their individual goals and characterization (and there are many reasons why it could reinforce them).

There's definitely potential in the idea. I think it raises questions about the fate of the species and that's a dangerous game, but DC is kinda playing it anyway with the Phaelosians, or however the hell you spell the name of the Warworld slaves.

My question though, is why use Karen for this role? Kara having a sister has some potential, but we agree that DC actively ignores Karen so isn't it shooting yourself in the foot to use her? I'd think a new character would be a better choice; DC is at least willing to give them three months' worth of effort before getting bored and giving up.

Thank you for thus whole conversatiom, I really appreciate it.

Same!

[Alpha]

.

My question though, is why use Karen for this role? Kara having a sister has some potential, but we agree that DC actively ignores Karen so isn't it shooting yourself in the foot to use her? I'd think a new character would be a better choice; DC is at least willing to give them three months' worth of effort before getting bored and giving up.

The idea arose from me liking Power Girl's personality and her choice to become a CEO, but being frustated with her origin story. I was trying to rewrite her origin in a way that fit those two elements even if it meant redefining her relatiomships with Superman. So I don't know if I would care for this story if it had to be another character.

But yes you are correct in saying that ultimately it wouldn't have to be Karen

[Ascended]

Eh, everyone always gets hung up on the origin story but it's not nearly as complicated as people make it out to be. If someone doesn't like multiverse type stories then it's not gonna appeal to them, but it's far easier to follow than a lot of character's origins, like the Hawks and Donna Troy, among others.

I'd say make Kara's sister an OC; it sidesteps a lot of problems you'd run into trying to force Karen into the role, and sometimes that fresh start is exactly what is needed. Just look at Yara Flour; she could easily have been another attempt to make Donna function properly but they went the OC route and the character is better off for it.

That or just have Karen and Kara hang out more; I don't think you'd necessarily need the blood relation for the two of them to act like sisters, and given Karen's the Kara of earth-2 they're kind of like sisters already.

But I still wonder how Kara having a sister, and that sister being part of a space navy, would impact the mythos. If we've got Kryptonian soldiers in space, then why is the species extinct? Why is Clark the Last Son of Krypton if there's a bunch of soldiers who have been out roaming space all this time, and what does that end up saying about the entire franchise? Like I said, it's a dangerous game you play here, good sir.

[TheRay]

I would not mind seeing alternate versions of the Kents

[Adekis]

Even though it's not consistent with "Mary" Kent's one name drop in the earliest Golden Age, I prefer for the Kents to be named Sarah and Eben in GA inspired stories and universes.

[Gaius]

Black shirt and jeans Superboy > 90s pajama boy

[Alpha]

Even though it's not consistent with "Mary" Kent's one name drop in the earliest Golden Age, I prefer for the Kents to be named Sarah and Eben in GA inspired stories and universes.

Eben Kent? I really like the name Eben but I don't think it goes with Kent.

[Jon Clark]

Eben Kent? I really like the name Eben but I don't think it goes with Kent.

It goes as well as John, Mary or Sarah if we are using the most common takes that aren't Jonathan or Martha.

[Primal Slayer]

Superman and Lois just spent a whole season dealing with a character that was from another world having to cope with losing their world, dealing with doppelgangers and coming to terms that they are not who they were on this other Earth. I dont see how this is any different from what Powergirl should go through with being from another Earth.

[Alpha]

Superman and Lois just spent a whole season dealing with a character that was from another world having to cope with losing their world, dealing with doppelgangers and coming to terms that they are not who they were on this other Earth. I dont see how this is any different from what Powergirl should go through with being from another Earth.

I feel like I already said most of what I had to say, and people already told me what they thought about it, so I'll try not to repeat myself.

Power Girl is basically, what if Aqualad from earth 6 came to the surface world after Atlantis was destroyed and started to wear a yellow outfit and his name became "Nature lad" and he was adopted by Aquaman.

But then "Nature Lad" also escaped the destruction of earth 6 and came to our world and didn't really hang out with Aquaman or our Aqualad, but instead of that he became a lawyer and joined the Outsiders. So you have Aquaman in the Justice League and Aqualad in the Teen Titans and they have a deep relationship, and then there's this guy in a yellow suit called Nature lad who is a lawyer and is a member of the Outsiders but has that entire backstory.