Controversial Superman Opinions

[Jon Clark]

I just figured that Superman's subconscious was so super-rational that if Krypton never blew up, he would never arrive on Earth and would never meet Lois. Probably that's too rational for conjuring up what his idealized, fantasy life would be, but then again the illusory world the Black Mercy trapped him in wasn't an idealized world.

I saw it from the opposite side. It was supposed to be a perfect world, but Superman's mind was rebelling against it by inserting the imperfections to break through the illusion. He was being shown the Silver Age Krypton but seeing the cracks that depiction glossed over.

[sunofdarkchild]

I saw it from the opposite side. It was supposed to be a perfect world, but Superman's mind was rebelling against it by inserting the imperfections to break through the illusion. He was being shown the Silver Age Krypton but seeing the cracks that depiction glossed over.

I also got the sense from the story that Superman was fighting the black mercy and probably would have beaten it even without Batman's help. I think it's a good story, I just don't think its implications for how Superman relates to the world are good for the character in the long run.

[DochaDocha]

I saw it from the opposite side. It was supposed to be a perfect world, but Superman's mind was rebelling against it by inserting the imperfections to break through the illusion. He was being shown the Silver Age Krypton but seeing the cracks that depiction glossed over.

Also a valid conclusion, that it was his resistance to the Black Mercy that turned an ideal scenario into a nightmarish one.

I could head canon this away by saying if Lois was living with him on Krypton, he would've known everything was fake from the get go.

[Stanlos]

Regarding Batman, however....that's a whole separate conversation, as I really don't view Batman to be on Superman's level (in terms of how I believe their interactions should be like). But obviously DKR and post-Crisis lore has substantially changed that dynamic in a way I don't like, but that is more of a problem with how DC handles Batman IMO.

I will never accept that as the way Supes and Bats interact. #NOPE

[Ascended]

To use your religion analogy- Superman isn't becoming part of something larger on Krypton, he's choosing to cut himself off from something larger. He's looking at a society of unbelievers and saying "hey it would be so much easier if i just became like them".

I see where you're coming from and you have a valid point, but I think you're discounting one very important thing. We're all looking at this as a form of immigration, a form of faith, etc., while ignoring the fact that unlike any of us, Clark comes from a dead species. And that is something that none of us can comprehend. And he alone carries the entire burden of his dead culture and history. Nobody else had the Fortress and all its records put into their care. Nobody else was tasked with keeping the memory of Krypton alive (though Kara should've been, all things considered).

Cutting himself off from something larger? If it meant his entire species could come back from extinction, do you think he'd consider it cutting himself off from something larger, or *gaining* something larger? Perhaps it's exactly *because* he's always had powers and abilities, he takes them a little for granted. We're always more willing to give up things we take for granted, right up until we lose them and realize how important they were to us.

What kind of impact does all that have on his psychology? To live his entire life knowing that while he looks like us, and was taught to emote like us and share our values, he's as different from humans as he can possibly be? To know that the people who were like him are gone, and never coming back? How heavy is that weight on his shoulders? And would he be willing to give up the world and people he loves, if it meant he could put that burden down and bring his species back from oblivion? His sense of responsibility won't let him; humanity needs him so he serves. His love of his wife, parents, and friends won't let him; they need him, so he's here. But if he didn't have to be the icon and the ideal that the public turned him into? If the people of earth didn't demand that he lead them into the sun? He has a Fortress of Solitude for a reason; he does not feel like he fits in anywhere, except for his own company.

We've seen Clark long for a world where he *is* considered normal. The first time he saw New Genesis he was tempted to go there, because the place seemed full of people like him. During WoNK, he did move to New Krypton (though earth was just an orbit away). On earth he's special, while under a red sun (such as you might imagine a new or old Krypton having) he'd lose so much sensory input he might as well become deaf and blind. But he's been special his whole life, that holds little appeal to him. And what good are all the things he can see and hear and experience, if he can't share them with anyone?

Clark wants to be normal when he isn't. Which is a really fun inverse of most real people, who aren't special but would like to be.

Maybe there are people who lived through genocides who can relate to Clark being the last of his kind. But even that, and I mean no disrespect to anyone here at all, is a pale reflection; despite all the horrors the Jewish people went through (and my gods, the horror!) across history and WWII, there were always other Jewish people out there somewhere. Same for Rwandans, native Americans, etc. No group, at least any that're still out there today, has experienced total annihilation like Kryptonians did, and I myself cannot fathom how that must weigh on Clark. Hell, I can only imagine what it's like for real groups, to experience genocide like so many have. And push comes to shove, we are all still human regardless of religion or region of birth. Clark doesn't even have that much to lean on.

[Johnny Thunders!]

“He loves Lois, Jimmy, and the rest, but he doesn't need them. His ideal is a world where he belongs, which he doesn't on Earth. He sees and hears things we can't comprehend. He isn't "letting his hair down" as Clark Kent, he has to restrict himself to make sure he doesn't destroy anything or anyone (cf. World of Cardboard speech).”

I think Clark is probably always doing a million things in his mind at once. Unless he turns his senses off he would still be receiving and processing information like no other being on planet. I hate to think of Clark living as a human and muting or dulling his senses. Would that really be his true self, a person that is always suppressing themselves from their potential?

As to the Black Mercy, I think Krytron enduring is the ideal or dream but Jor El as a fascist is his mind trying to wake itself up. It’s his mind defending himself. Kandor is not a fascist regime.

[kingaliencracker]

I will never accept that as the way Supes and Bats interact. #NOPE

I never said they wouldn't interact.

[phonogram12]

I see where you're coming from and you have a valid point, but I think you're discounting one very important thing. We're all looking at this as a form of immigration, a form of faith, etc., while ignoring the fact that unlike any of us, Clark comes from a dead species. And that is something that none of us can comprehend. And he alone carries the entire burden of his dead culture and history. Nobody else had the Fortress and all its records put into their care. Nobody else was tasked with keeping the memory of Krypton alive (though Kara should've been, all things considered).

Cutting himself off from something larger? If it meant his entire species could come back from extinction, do you think he'd consider it cutting himself off from something larger, or *gaining* something larger? Perhaps it's exactly *because* he's always had powers and abilities, he takes them a little for granted. We're always more willing to give up things we take for granted, right up until we lose them and realize how important they were to us.

What kind of impact does all that have on his psychology? To live his entire life knowing that while he looks like us, and was taught to emote like us and share our values, he's as different from humans as he can possibly be? To know that the people who were like him are gone, and never coming back? How heavy is that weight on his shoulders? And would he be willing to give up the world and people he loves, if it meant he could put that burden down and bring his species back from oblivion? His sense of responsibility won't let him; humanity needs him so he serves. His love of his wife, parents, and friends won't let him; they need him, so he's here. But if he didn't have to be the icon and the ideal that the public turned him into? If the people of earth didn't demand that he lead them into the sun? He has a Fortress of Solitude for a reason; he does not feel like he fits in anywhere, except for his own company.

We've seen Clark long for a world where he *is* considered normal. The first time he saw New Genesis he was tempted to go there, because the place seemed full of people like him. During WoNK, he did move to New Krypton (though earth was just an orbit away). On earth he's special, while under a red sun (such as you might imagine a new or old Krypton having) he'd lose so much sensory input he might as well become deaf and blind. But he's been special his whole life, that holds little appeal to him. And what good are all the things he can see and hear and experience, if he can't share them with anyone?

Clark wants to be normal when he isn't. Which is a really fun inverse of most real people, who aren't special but would like to be.

Maybe there are people who lived through genocides who can relate to Clark being the last of his kind. But even that, and I mean no disrespect to anyone here at all, is a pale reflection; despite all the horrors the Jewish people went through (and my gods, the horror!) across history and WWII, there were always other Jewish people out there somewhere. Same for Rwandans, native Americans, etc. No group, at least any that're still out there today, has experienced total annihilation like Kryptonians did, and I myself cannot fathom how that must weigh on Clark. Hell, I can only imagine what it's like for real groups, to experience genocide like so many have. And push comes to shove, we are all still human regardless of religion or region of birth. Clark doesn't even have that much to lean on.

Exactly. All of this. Well put.

[NilesCaulder]

My controversial opinion is that I don't like that Superman and Lois are married, and I don't like that they have a son. I also find it *really* weird that people love both.

[phonogram12]

My controversial opinion is that I don't like that Superman and Lois are married, and I don't like that they have a son. I also find it *really* weird that people love both.

I can see why people don't like it, but for me, I think they both seem like natural places his story would go and still be entertaining. He's basically the father of all superheroes already, so making him an actual father just seemed like the logical next step for me. I had a bigger issue with making Bats a father, quite frankly.

[Ascended]

My controversial opinion is that I don't like that Superman and Lois are married, and I don't like that they have a son. I also find it *really* weird that people love both.

The marriage makes sense as a viable part of his life's journey. I get not wanting the narrative to advance that far, because we *do* lose some stuff when Clark and Lois become that close, but it makes sense as part of Clark's overall narrative. And once Clark and Lois became the accepted, inevitable, obvious endgame, there wasn't a ton of reason not to eventually get there in the stories themselves.

Him having a biological child is something I take issue with. Clark is meant to be the last of his kind; part of the balance and appeal of his story, part of what elevates it from "fiction" to "mythology" is that no matter what Clark manages to do, no matter how long he lives, when he inevitably dies, so does an entire species. Jon is a fun character, but he shouldn't exist.

[NilesCaulder]

I can see why people don't like it, but for me, I think they both seem like natural places his story would go and still be entertaining. He's basically the father of all superheroes already, so making him an actual father just seemed like the logical next step for me. I had a bigger issue with making Bats a father, quite frankly.

Honestly, I just think it was laziness to marry them off - especially since the decision seemed to be made solely to tie-in to the Lois and Clark TV show, which is (thankfully) all but forgotten. I just feel that the pre-wedding dynamic between Superman, Clark and Lois should have been sacred, especially since it had existed long before most of us had been born. I get that writing company-owned characters is constraining, but look, either you're talented enough to work within those limitations or you're not. And if you're not, that's fine - but quit. Don't leave characters completely changed because you're not that imaginative a writer.

Also, I haaaaate the recent development that Jor-El was transported out of Krypton and lived another 30-ish years. That's moronic. Almost as moronic as Rogol Zaar actually being responsible for Krypton's destruction. Like whut? In the 21st century, you would think that a planet exploding thanks to ignoring science would resonate more than ever, but ohhhhh noooooo, that's not it at all, it was Rogol Zaar! Pathetic.

[manwhohaseverything]

Krypton illusion from black mercy is created from clarks memory (perfect recall) and what data he gathered on krypton.
It ain't perfect nor ideal.. It's just home..As for normal,i don't think clark wants to be that.He is what he is..He just doesn't want to feel alone all the time,even when he surrounded by people.

[JAK]

Honestly, I just think it was laziness to marry them off - especially since the decision seemed to be made solely to tie-in to the Lois and Clark TV show, which is (thankfully) all but forgotten.

That's incorrect, actually; in the comics, Lois and Clark were engaged in 1990, nearly three years before "Lois And Clark" hit airwaves. In fact, when the first episode aired, Superman was three months away from being killed by Doomsday. The comics team had planned on marrying the two in Dec of 1992, but had to scrap the whole year of stories when WB told them "no, you have to wait for the TV show" - and in frustration, killing him became the plan.

Originally, when Clark proposed to Lois in the comics, they were going to have her say no - but when it came time to do it, they just couldn't see the character saying that. So, in Superman #50, they were engaged.

Sorry, I see so many cynical takes on the Triangle Era Super-Summit team when they were, at least until after RoS, literally anything but when it came to character. They cared about what they were doing, and imo the writing shows it.

I just feel that the pre-wedding dynamic between Superman, Clark and Lois should have been sacred, especially since it had existed long before most of us had been born. I get that writing company-owned characters is constraining, but look, either you're talented enough to work within those limitations or you're not. And if you're not, that's fine - but quit. Don't leave characters completely changed because you're not that imaginative a writer.

I get where you're coming from on that, but "will they/won't they" can only go on so long before people lose interest. Imo, it was going to happen at some point. There were even whispers of the possibility during the Bronze Age, iirc.

Also, I haaaaate the recent development that Jor-El was transported out of Krypton and lived another 30-ish years. That's moronic. Almost as moronic as Rogol Zaar actually being responsible for Krypton's destruction. Like whut? In the 21st century, you would think that a planet exploding thanks to ignoring science would resonate more than ever, but ohhhhh noooooo, that's not it at all, it was Rogol Zaar! Pathetic.

LOL - I agree here, though Jor-El could have been an interesting development, if it had been done correctly. It just wasn't.

[DochaDocha]

My personal theory is that marrying Superman and Lois became more important as audiences started aging with Supes. If the case were that comic readers picked up the books as kids and stopped buying them as early teens, you don't need a full story arc. But the average age of readers starting going up in time as fewer young children started picking up comics, but the ones who would buy comics kept on buying them into adulthood so there became a demand for an evolving timeline.

I've had just enough exposure to before and after marriage and I probably would pick the triangle for two, but that's just my take.