Controversial Superman Opinions

[DochaDocha]

KC also wouldn't have its legacy if not for Alex Ross' art, which I think was novel for its time and even today. I do tend to find it a bit overrated, but I have a soft spot for it and thus I can't really objectively critique it.

[marhawkman]

775 and Kingdom Come are a pox upon the character.

775 could have been great as an exploration of Clark's hypocrisy and tendency to lean towards the self-righteous, but it was played absolutely straight....as if Clark himself didn't have a higher body count than anyone else in the League at the time except *maybe* Aquaman (of all people).

And Kingdom Come's curse is being such a great story people forget it's a dystopia where the heroes failed, and think that's how Superman is *supposed* to be, rather than recognizing it as a flawed and incorrect version of the character the way it was (I presume) intended to be.

It's one of those stories that's good IN SPITE of being a dystopia. Everyone in-universe knows the world went to ---- and acts like it. The questionable part was Superman's motives. Why did he do it? Other than that it was a pretty solid story IMO.

[superduperman]

Kingdom Come and Action Comics #775 aren't liked because they are well written or have interesting philosophical debates. Certain fans of classic Superman like them because they told them what they wanted to hear. 775 is also incredibly racist.

KC has grown on me for a couple reasons. For one, it's one of the few stories that wasn't ruined by a sequel. Which I think is for the best. The other reason is I can kind of relate to Superman in it. Superman didn't give up on the world, the world gave up on him. Which I think was the point that was missed. KC is like Watchmen in that people took the wrong lesson from it. Superman left because the world rejected his way of doing things. Now, its not without it's faults. Superman is led around by the dick by WW and it's another "Batman was right" story. But I can kind of get why Superman might want to peace out after the world rejects his way of doing things.

[Ra-El]

Kingdom Come as good as it is, is also a story where Superman fails from start to finish, it's a good exploration of the character for sure, but is in no way a story where Superman is show in the best of lights. He's really cool in it tho.

775 is one of those stories where the execution doesn't live up to the idea of it. They took the easy way in the end.

[Ascended]

It's one of those stories that's good IN SPITE of being a dystopia. Everyone in-universe knows the world went to ---- and acts like it. The questionable part was Superman's motives. Why did he do it? Other than that it was a pretty solid story IMO.

Oh, I adore KC. It's among my favorite DC stories.

But it's not meant to be a blueprint on how to write those characters. Bruce and his authoritarian drone army in Gotham? Clark abandoning the world because they didn't agree with him? Diana being a "final solution" kind of warrior queen? That was taking small aspects of their personalities and blowing them up to such a ridiculous size that the entire world burned for it. We weren't supposed to read KC and say "that's exactly how these heroes should act!" we were supposed to read KC and enjoy a story about a world where the heroes fail because they allow their most petty sensibilities to rule them.

Sadly, DC only saw $$$ and fans only saw a great story, and KC ended up gaining far more traction and influence than it was meant to.

[Alan2099]

Kingdom Come showed us all the character gone wrong. Many of the worst aspects had become their main traits. DC somehow looked at that and read it as "this is how to do the characters right."

[NaVi]

KC Superman for me is what Superman should be in the main universe, I'm not saying it's always like that, but it would be nice to see him in some story. In KC it is the human being who destroys Superman, they tell him that everything he had fought for, everything he believed in, is worth nothing compared to a murderer, but for some reason many believe that Superman is the bad guy, when he eats I have said it is the human being that destroys it. The only weak point is that both Superman and the rest of the heroes came back very easily, it would have been nice to see the whole planet begging.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I love Kingdom Come, what if humanity’s greatest champion lost his faith in human beings?

[Jon Clark]

KC was basically the first attempt to show the end result of trends of the 1990's in superheroes. It was the classic DC (and Marvel) heroes being pushed aside by Miller's Batman, Spawn, Wolverine, Miracleman and such.

The next generation weren't heroes and villains- they were just sets of powers beating each other up for entertainment. Superhero stories that were more about the flash and spectacle than the characters.

Superman and Batman were stripped of Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne. Norman Mckay actually points out that Superman's flaw was losing his connection to the regular everyday people- basically his being Superman 24/7 with no Clark Kent like he's been in the comics for the past decade.

[Johnny Thunders!]

As a Superman fanatic, Kingdom Come makes you come to grips the limitations of the Superman idea. He can’t do it all alone, he has limitations, he’s not always right, and he needs to be more forgiving of others. Action 775, Manchester Black and his team they just weren’t as good as Jenny Sparks or John Constantine in my opinion so it felt like he was knocking down straw men so to speak. Superman’s greatest feat in Kingdom Come is redeeming Captain Marvel.

[Alan2099]

KC Superman for me is what Superman should be in the main universe, I'm not saying it's always like that, but it would be nice to see him in some story.

You want to see more stories with Superman as a bitter jaded lonely failure that's lost touch with the world but still puts himself above humanity?

Why do you hate Superman so much?

[NaVi]

You want to see more stories with Superman as a bitter jaded lonely failure that's lost touch with the world but still puts himself above humanity?

Why do you hate Superman so much?

And you want Superman to always forgive humanity, because you want a mom instead of a hero. A story in which Superman gets tired of a species that doesn't learn, that always tries to kill him, I don't think it's a bad thing, there are also more worlds, because Earth, the planet that has caused more harm than Apokolips, deserves so many heroes.

[Agent Z]

775 and Kingdom Come are a pox upon the character.

775 could have been great as an exploration of Clark's hypocrisy and tendency to lean towards the self-righteous, but it was played absolutely straight....as if Clark himself didn't have a higher body count than anyone else in the League at the time except *maybe* Aquaman (of all people).

And Kingdom Come's curse is being such a great story people forget it's a dystopia where the heroes failed, and think that's how Superman is *supposed* to be, rather than recognizing it as a flawed and incorrect version of the character the way it was (I presume) intended to be.

They forget that because superhero fans, especially Superman fans, have always been lenient towards anything a superhero does short of killing.

Like I said, these stories aren't interested in any nuanced debate, they just tell Superman fans what they want to hear. They were made during a time when it was common to call Superman corny (even though he had numerous titles and a tv series), so this was Superman fans being allowed to feel vindicated.

KC was basically the first attempt to show the end result of trends of the 1990's in superheroes. It was the classic DC (and Marvel) heroes being pushed aside by Miller's Batman, Spawn, Wolverine, Miracleman and such.

The next generation weren't heroes and villains- they were just sets of powers beating each other up for entertainment. Superhero stories that were more about the flash and spectacle than the characters.

Superman and Batman were stripped of Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne. Norman Mckay actually points out that Superman's flaw was losing his connection to the regular everyday people- basically his being Superman 24/7 with no Clark Kent like he's been in the comics for the past decade.

This has always been an inaccurate view of comics in the 1990s. Young Justice, the New Warriors, Kyle Rayner's Green Lantern, Connor Hawke's Green Arrow, Cassandra Cain's Batgirl, even later volumes of WildCATs were all about character exploration. Such stories were very common in DC, much more than, say, Rob Liefeld's X-Force.

If anything, this more accurately described DC and Marvel in the 2000s and much of the 2010s than the 90s.

And you want Superman to always forgive humanity, because you want a mom instead of a hero. A story in which Superman gets tired of a species that doesn't learn, that always tries to kill him, I don't think it's a bad thing, there are also more worlds, because Earth, the planet that has caused more harm than Apokolips, deserves so many heroes.

Forgive them for what? Not mourning a mass murderer who'd already escaped justice several times?

[Agent Z]

KC has grown on me for a couple reasons. For one, it's one of the few stories that wasn't ruined by a sequel. Which I think is for the best. The other reason is I can kind of relate to Superman in it. Superman didn't give up on the world, the world gave up on him. Which I think was the point that was missed. KC is like Watchmen in that people took the wrong lesson from it. Superman left because the world rejected his way of doing things. Now, its not without it's faults. Superman is led around by the dick by WW and it's another "Batman was right" story. But I can kind of get why Superman might want to peace out after the world rejects his way of doing things.

I fail to see how Diana is "leading Clark around by the dick". That seems to place the blame for all his actions on her. And it's as much a "Superman was right" story as it is a Batman was right story.

[marhawkman]

Forgive them for what? Not mourning a mass murderer who'd already escaped justice several times?

Well, in KC most people told Superman they didn't want his "protection".