Controversial Superman Opinions

[TheCape]

That's the appeal I see in 90's Toyman. He's a type of villain Superman almost never fights. He's so low-end he's almost impossible to hunt down (Imagine Superman trying to track explosives made with common household items. All the powers in the world wont help him there) and he's utterly, scarily insane. He was a great villain because he gave us Super-readers a taste of something different.

Fair point.

90's Toyman wasn't any more of a physical threat to Clark but he hit Superman in different ways, which is far worse than scars and broken bones.

I think that some adaptations tried to make Lex that kind of villain too. Althought i don't think that it worked soe well.

Clark's rogues gallery isnt all that weak, but I do think it lacks variety. It's largely just three flavors of evil; cosmic, regular, and corporate. I also think writers focus too heavily on the same handful of villains (in part because of the lack of variety) but that's another topic.....

Yeah, you can’t tell me you can imagine a movie with Cyborg Superman (and Henshaw backstory is kind of weird, but in some way he reminds me to Venom) or Toyman as the Big Bad. Mxypltlk is virtually unusable, Bizarro would probably just turn into a glorified Doomsday (how do you make the backwards talking worth on screen?), so you’re left with Luthor, Darkseid, and various super-thugs, and making those guys into world-beaters is hit or miss.

[magha_regulus]

Kon-El shouldn't ever return and should be relegated to comics limbo. The teenage clone of Superman is just a bad idea, especially in its execution. Not having Superman mentor him directly was wrong. IF they were going to bring him back I'd have him be Jon the current Superboy taken out of the books and brought back with Kon-El's personality and temperament but with him actually being Superman's son and not a human hybrid "clone".

[daBronzeBomma]

Okay, now we're heading to 'controversial'

Just getting warmed up.

But, does this mean he appears with 'unearthly blue hair, unearthly pink skin, and glowing all-blue eyes' as Superman?

Hmmm .... Yes. Yes! Why not? I think Superman works best when he deftly dances on the line between reminding us of our own humanity while also reminding us of his own "otherworldiness". And if Superman looks alien (up close anyway) while Clark looks human, then the eyeglasses become a lot more powerful in their symbolism.

If so, wouldn't that create a distancing similar to J'onn's?

More distancing than currently exists for Kal, sure, but still nothing remotely like what J'onn always faces.

They're too different characters (although, technically J'onn would still fall under the homage/pastiche/rip-off umbrella label when it comes to Superman, so the steal-back principle could apply to MM as well). J'onn was already a full-grown Martian adult who lived a lifetime (or several Terrestrial lifetimes' worth) on Mars, with Martian memories of growing up and starting a Martian family with Martian values, when he came to Earth. J'onn would always be a stranger to Earth in ways that Kal will never be, due to the differences in their respective upbringings and yes the differing degrees of their outward alien-ness.

Also, J'onn has never had the Reassuring Smile that Kal always radiates (or used to radiate). Hence, the additional distancing could be minimal.

Plus, think of Kal's alien look as more Starfire than Martian Manhunter: Just different coloring really on an already attractive adult ... as opposed to J'onn and his weird compromise half-measure look. Kal could still look "human" enough (read: pass for White) from afar or if you saw him nearby only briefly for a few seconds.

If not, does that mean he doesn't have to wear the 'glasses' for the effect(s) to work and just have them with him?

If Clark always has to wear the glasses on his face to activate the human look, that might make for some interesting stories as to how he gets out of this sticky situation using his wits and/or powers if asked/forced to remove them for some reason. A good writer could work with that premise, I think.

Ooh, just thought of something else for the glasses: not only did they scan Jonathan and Martha to create Clark's human look, but Kal can program them to scan any two people to create a new human visage and identity. Maybe he spends some time each year in Africa under the guise of "Calvin Ellis" or some other name, or in Asia under the guise of "Keenan Kong" or some other name, or (fill in the blank place and corresponding ethnicity name starting with the K sound). This idea would probably get a crazy amount of pushback. Superman as potentially every Earthly ethnicity in one alien? Too wild.

You're talking about Batman, right?

Don't get me started. If there was an active "Controversial Batman Opinions" thread in the Batman Forum right now, I'd have a lot more to say on this.

[Vanguard-01]

Don't get me started. If there was an active "Controversial Batman Opinions" thread in the Batman Forum right now, I'd have a lot more to say on this.

There IS one, actually!

http://community.comicbookresources....amily-Opinions

[Slaughter]

Mongul got nerfed because of the Exile arc where Superman was under a orange sun.

Classic Mongul does occupies a lot of already-filled slots.

I think Loeb and co took Mongul to a interesting direction: He's not stronger/faster/tougher than Superman, he's a better warrior and fighter than Superman. Superman holds back, Mongul does not. Superman helps people and subdues threats, Mongul KILLS threats and goes around the universe laying waste to worlds and defeating their super-powered champions. Every minute Superman is:
- Saving kittens stuck on trees
- Being Clark Kent
- Socializing
- Saving people from natural disasters and low-level criminals

Meanwhile, Mongul is:
- Training harder
- Waging war on some hapless alien species
- Fighting
- Killing

I would say Superman vs Mongul could be a muscle-bound gym rat vs a very skilled warrior.

[daBronzeBomma]

There IS one, actually!

http://community.comicbookresources....amily-Opinions

WTH?

I swear that thread was not there the last time I checked the Bat forum a few days ago.

EDIT: Oh, it was bumped after 2.5 years of no new posts a few days ago.

OK then. Good to know!

Let's see ...

Superman's suit should be symbiotic. Not like Spider-Man's old black suit that was sentient and tried to take over Peter, more like its base form is the caped Super-suit, but it can morph into any style of clothing (look and texture) that Clark comes into contact with and then back into the super suit upon Kal's mental command. Also, high degree of invulnerability (cape can be used to contain exploding bombs without any damage).

[sunofdarkchild]

And yet when TV Supergirl uses these character a certain group of fans have a fit that a show about Superman characters is using Superman villains on a show about Superman characters.
Somehow all these villains are exclusive to Superman and no other writer has the right to give a different take or origin of the character. I say use it or lose it. Just glad to see them show
up in live action.

Speaking of which,

http://tvline.com/2016/12/27/supergi...llo-returning/

That's not the issue. The issue is that it creates the impression that Supergirl doesn't have her own villains or supporting cast to work with. It makes Supergirl look like a lesser character when she deals with Superman villains and characters so much instead of her own. If she had a decent cast and rogue's gallery to begin with the use of Superman villains in addition would be a non-issue.

[stephens2177]

I dont think this is controversial at all, actually. Im pretty sure the vast majority of us agree with you.

What is controversial is that I loved 90's era child-killer Toyman. Superman largely has three types of villains; super rich evil guys like Lex and Morgan Edge, or high-concept beings that are well beyond anything the real world has to offer, like Brainiac and Darkseid and Myx. And then you can sprinkle a handful of mid-level villains in there who are, honestly, fairly standard superhero fare, like Metallo and Parasite.

Clark's rogues gallery isnt all that weak, but I do think it lacks variety. It's largely just three flavors of evil; cosmic, regular, and corporate. I also think writers focus too heavily on the same handful of villains (in part because of the lack of variety) but that's another topic.....

What Superman lacks completely is a truly horrible, crazy, Arkham-worthy foe who vexes Superman with his low-end yet unpredictable and bloody methods. 90's Toyman filled that gap and earned major bad guy points for killing Cat's son.

This was the only version of Toyman who I ever thought was threatening on any level. Most of the time the guy is just so laughable I can't see him as a threat. Even the "toy" version from the animated series is only marginally creepy. About the only danger Toyman usually poses is making Clark a few minutes late for work, you know? 90's Toyman wasn't any more of a physical threat to Clark but he hit Superman in different ways, which is far worse than scars and broken bones.

That's the appeal I see in 90's Toyman. He's a type of villain Superman almost never fights. He's so low-end he's almost impossible to hunt down (Imagine Superman trying to track explosives made with common household items. All the powers in the world wont help him there) and he's utterly, scarily insane. He was a great villain because he gave us Super-readers a taste of something different.

This face screams psycho,and hank should be supermans joker.

Kon-El shouldn't ever return and should be relegated to comics limbo. The teenage clone of Superman is just a bad idea, especially in its execution. Not having Superman mentor him directly was wrong. IF they were going to bring him back I'd have him be Jon the current Superboy taken out of the books and brought back with Kon-El's personality and temperament but with him actually being Superman's son and not a human hybrid "clone".

NOT,kon was a great idea,and one that makes sense.he is humans trying to recreate superman,don't tell miss our government or a super rich guy wouldn't try t do that.

You might not have liked how they presented him,but the premise is awesome,and begging for another try,in ano there way.

The 'daddy' angle on the YJ show was the characters one really true weakness,he should never have been represented aS his son.

WTH?

I swear that thread was not there the last time I checked the Bat forum a few days ago.

EDIT: Oh, it was bumped after 2.5 years of no new posts a few days ago.

OK then. Good to know!

Let's see ...

Superman's suit should be symbiotic. Not like Spider-Man's old black suit that was sentient and tried to take over Peter, more like its base form is the caped Super-suit, but it can morph into any style of clothing (look and texture) that Clark comes into contact with and then back into the super suit upon Kal's mental command. Also, high degree of invulnerability (cape can be used to contain exploding bombs without any damage).

I like the symbiotic suit idea also,just not so armor like,should be whatever the wearer wants it to be.

[Kuwagaton]

What is controversial is that I loved 90's era child-killer Toyman.

I sure didn't enjoy reading that story, but I can respect that it was unique. Superman was ramping up in some huge ways, then all of a sudden... '90s Toyman, kills his friend's kid. I just wish the writing itself was a little better than what we got, though the part where Toyman taunts Cat was amazingly nasty.

Clark's rogues gallery isnt all that weak, but I do think it lacks variety. It's largely just three flavors of evil; cosmic, regular, and corporate. I also think writers focus too heavily on the same handful of villains (in part because of the lack of variety) but that's another topic.....

Spider-Man's villains are cut from the same cloth, with a few exceptions. The biggest two villains after the silver age were Hobby and Venom. Hobby was pretty weak without Stern and when Venom fizzled out as a villain they just made Carnage, a Joker Venom.

There's a kind of same-yness with Flash and Batman villains, too, but I haven't read as much with them.

What Superman lacks completely is a truly horrible, crazy, Arkham-worthy foe who vexes Superman with his low-end yet unpredictable and bloody methods. 90's Toyman filled that gap and earned major bad guy points for killing Cat's son.

The best thing I can give the Joker is that he's the Joker. When anyone else is the Joker, they're... not the Joker. In any case I like to think that that type of villain can't survive in Superman's atmosphere. Superman took the Batman Year One idea and magnified it: when regular crime stopped being effective, not only did the high powered guys come in, but the unpowered guys clustered and sold their souls to get more power (Intergang and Luthor).

[666MasterOfPuppets]

For one thing, you have to answer why Clark would still be alive but Jon, Kara and Connor wouldn't. For another, stories like this diefy Superman to an utterly obnoxious degree and further play into the idea of him being an unapproachable figure that no reader can take interest in. The blatant ignoring of his limits by fanboy writers has done nothing to help the character at all.

Well, don't know about Jon (I think it could be explained away by him being half-human, although in honesty I don't like the kid, and in my headcanon he doesn't exist either. Hell, upon first reading your post I thought you were talking about Martian Manhunter ), but in my defense I don't think Kara and Connor should exist.

Also, I think the immortality part serves to enphasize his alien origin. I'd like to see him not from the usual approach of "a regular joe with powers", but the one in which he's an alien living among us.

As for him being relatable, that's up for debate, I believe. I mean, isn't that what the Clark Kent persona is for? Doesn't he deal with the same issues we do? He gets angry, sad, he's lost people he loves. Hell, he must pay rent and credit cards. And he also has to make tough choices. I realize this sounds kinda simple, but it's the angle I'd look for.

Isnt the idea of Clark being long-lived/immortal a non-issue to begin with? The comics will never advance the story to the point where Clark's friends and loved ones have died of old age. Lois and Jimmy are just as immortal in practical application as Superman. He's never going to actually have to deal with their loss in main continuity and alternate tales, Elseworlds, and possible futures are only that; short-term stories that offer an idea of what might come to pass in a phase of Clark's life we will never actually see. You can throw some emotional conflict at Clark where all his relationships have a bittersweet aspect to them, but if you're writing Superman properly he's not the type of guy to dwell so even this is only going to get you so far.

I disagree, to a point, with the bolded as well. Yes, some writers go overboard and make Clark great at everything and never throw a worthy challenge at him because they lack the imagination to do so. But the core of Superman's story is the concept of restraint. Its not about his limits, its about how he deals with not having any. He's a man without limitations living in a limited world and having to play by the rules imposed upon him. And that's an interesting idea to explore; if you can do anything, what *should* you do? That's the struggle Clark faces and you see it in almost every aspect of the mythos.

Well said.

I can see why someone might have a problem with Clark as Superboy, but what is the problem with Kon being Superboy,or just his young hybrid clone?

Thing is, I have a very specific view on the character. I see him as this alien being with an extremely complex and advanced DNA that simply cannot be deciphered by humans. He may look as a human (almost), but he's not one of us.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

BTW, another thing I'll add to my original post: Superman's bio-aura/electro-magnetic field should interfere with electronics, so he must use some sort of device to prevent that from happening.

[Tra-EL]

Its not about his limits, its about how he deals with not having any. He's a man without limitations living in a limited world and having to play by the rules imposed upon him. And that's an interesting idea to explore; if you can do anything, what *should* you do? That's the struggle Clark faces and you see it in almost every aspect of the mythos.

Very well said and I agree. It's one of the most admiring traits of Superman that I adore about the character. Sure his powersets are cool and it's always a pleasing treat to the eye to see Supes in large scoping action sequences, but to see Clark in how he handles that type of urge and power to remain mentally disciplined in the face of living in a urge-driven and egotistical world, Superman defy's even more of those odds in that regard alone and I love him for that. It's almost like a wealthy person that has money and power beyond their capabilities that ground them. They either never fill the void of never having enough by always buying material belongings for the short-term or they give back. In Superman's enormous situation, he simply gives back in the most humble and gentle way possible. That in itself is a massive mental challenge that should always be considered in the Superman mytho's. This simple trait of Superman is what defines him in the grand scheme of things that disregards his powerset or the fact that he is of Kryptoninan; extraterrestrial culture.

[manofsteel1979]

BTW, another thing I'll add to my original post: Superman's bio-aura/electro-magnetic field should interfere with electronics, so he must use some sort of device to prevent that from happening.

I seem to remember Kurt Busiek hinting at such an idea ( i.e. his powers affecting technology)during his run early on,but it was just eventually dropped and never picked up on again.

[Ascended]

I sure didn't enjoy reading that story, but I can respect that it was unique. Superman was ramping up in some huge ways, then all of a sudden... '90s Toyman, kills his friend's kid. I just wish the writing itself was a little better than what we got, though the part where Toyman taunts Cat was amazingly nasty.

Its always a challenge to make a non-powered villain a viable threat, and I'll admit that the story might not have been as good as it could have been. But conceptually? We hadn't seen anything like it post-Crisis, and I think making Clark deal with that particular type of villain offers a lot of new opportunities. We've seen Clark try to help and rehabilitate his foes, we've seen him try to recruit them to the side of good, we've seen him do lots of things over the years to make the world, even for the bad guys, better. But how does Clark deal with someone who is so deeply disturbed and beyond conventional help?

There was potential there.

Spider-Man's villains are cut from the same cloth, with a few exceptions. The biggest two villains after the silver age were Hobby and Venom. Hobby was pretty weak without Stern and when Venom fizzled out as a villain they just made Carnage, a Joker Venom.

There's a kind of same-yness with Flash and Batman villains, too, but I haven't read as much with them.

These are (mostly) true things, but we weren't talking about those other heroes so I left it alone.

The best thing I can give the Joker is that he's the Joker. When anyone else is the Joker, they're... not the Joker. In any case I like to think that that type of villain can't survive in Superman's atmosphere. Superman took the Batman Year One idea and magnified it: when regular crime stopped being effective, not only did the high powered guys come in, but the unpowered guys clustered and sold their souls to get more power (Intergang and Luthor).

Oh, I dont think any villain should try to copy the Joker. Any attempt to do so is going to pale by comparison. Fortunately, the Joker doesn't have the trademark on "insane psychopathic bad guy" and there's plenty of paths to take an "Arkham" style villain that doesn't just try to copy Joker's role and style.

As for conventional crime dying out in Metropolis, I do think that's an interesting concept and it can make for a good story, but if you go that route you're limiting yourself. Its one thing to say that Clark doesnt usually deal with conventional crime because the MPD and SCU handle it, and quite another to remove it from play all together.

[Ascended]

This face screams psycho,and hank should be supermans joker.

I think he was, for a little while in the late 90's. But after blowing up Coast City and making Mongul his lapdog, it felt like Henshaw had jumped the shark and he didn't find a worthy hook until Sinestro Corps War when he was revealed to be the suicidal and nihilistic new leader of the Manhunters.

If it were up to me I'd have left him in that role. Yellow power ring, Kryptonian powers, cybernetic augmentations, army of Manhunters at his beck and call. That's a Superman caliber villain right there, and his motivation (trying to die and being unable to) was a great hook full of potential.