Controversial Superman Opinions

[marhawkman]

I wonder if it would have been better to make him just a (modified) Lex clone in the same way he was just a Westfield clone, instead of a Lex/Superman clone.

Yeah, better, to be sure.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

The original reveal was cooler for the sheer mad science involved in duplicating as much of Superman as possible without just cloning him, and Psionic powers replicating and evolving beyond Superman's sometimes-forgotten TTK was a great hook for the character.

But yeah, Lex sells the mad scientist part faster and with more importance because he's Lex freakin' Luthor.

The ideal Kon-El/Conner is probably one who *is* largely cloned from Lex, perhaps only mixing in Superman's pseudo-photosynthesis genetics, with everything else being genetic engineering from Lex that uses Kryptonian solar power to fuel his powers, and maybe even "pre-programming" of Superboy's mind to make the more energy efficient TTK start at full strength and intuitive use for what is initially Lex's weapon/"son."

Then you could have their be greater impacts and mixing of the different versions of the character - like he gains his attitude and personality while still able to enjoy the pre-programmed powers from his TTK and knowing he's growing some more "natural" strength, durability, etc... and then when Lex activates his programming, breaking away from it requires breaking the "pre-programming" of the TTK, so he has to relearn how to use the TTK and for a while is stuck with the TV!YJ power level... but relearning how to use TTK eventually leads to far more creative uses of it.

You could even differentiate whether the "pre-programming" is being used by making it look like red energy (like in the New 52), then blue when he's relearned it.

It's a cool take on Conner's setup and it reminded me of Smallville. That shows take ends up reusing one of the actors who played young Lex as Connor. Plus Lionel and Lex also cloned Lex's deceased younger brother at one point so there is a precedent.

[magha_regulus]

Hank Henshaw the Cyborg Superman needs an actual codename. He should be called Cyber-Man or something.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Hank Henshaw the Cyborg Superman needs an actual codename. He should be called Cyber-Man or something.

How about Remnant?

[magha_regulus]

I much prefer the original take where The Metropolis Kid was Cadmus trying to create a Kryptonian from purely human genes because they couldn't quite crack the Kryptonian genetic code. I might not object to Lex's genes being used there as i can see Lex having an operative at Cadmus who would switch Lex's material for anyone else's,

But I find Geoff Johns' idea of Superboy being created from Lex's and Superman's combined genes a bit creepy and childish. A half Lex, half Superman character is a lazy way to create drama ("Oh will my Lex genes make me a criminal or will my Superman genes make me a hero?"). And it creates another forced connection to Lex out of what could be an independent Super-family character.

I'm glad they haven't taken to tying Steel to Lex by making John Henry Irons a former LexCorp employee, making Lex the secret backer of the criminals who stole Iron's weapon designs, or making them former scientific rivals prior to Lex being outed as a criminal. They already had that bit in the 90's where Lex was sleeping with the Matrix-Supergirl, used him as a romantic rival with Lois, made the Luthors as rivals of the Olsens as Metropolis old money, had Lex as Perry's boyhood pal.. It would have been nice to have some part of Superman's world that wasn't intimately tied to Lex Luthor.

I totally agree with you on the Kon-El part. The original origin was much better.

[Tzigone]

My big problem with the clone thing is twofold. First of all, Kon was just two defined as a character to be meaningfully changed by the revelation. The most that happened was he became more introspective... which only made him more like that era's Clark.

The other problem was actually with the idea that he was not only a clone of Luthor, but also of Superman. When he was a clone of Westfield, he was only a clone of Westfield, with metahuman powers which only resembled Superman's alien powers. I thought that was a cool and interesting twist on the concept, and frankly I prefer it to the simplicity of "half-Luthor, half-Superman". The obvious problem being of course that the same simplicity makes that idea way more memorable, to the extent that a lot of fans don't even know Kon was only related to Kal by ceremonial adoption into the El family, for his first ten or so years.

I so preferred the original. I like the idea of him (and other heroes) not being so immediately connected to existing heroes and villains. In either emotional or biological context. Gives them more room to not be defined by them or constantly compared (something Kon was trying to do was find was his own identity, rather than the one he was made for - that's a great story, but it has to end and move on to the next thing instead being repeated over and over). While he can still do that, even biologically related, I prefer the character more separate, because so long as he remains in Lex or Clark's spheres, he's going to remain subordinate and defined by the needs of those characters' storyarcs. Ironically, in some ways, it keeps him the perpetual child. I have similar issues with Dick Grayson in the post-COIE era. Of course, the decline in the popularity of the Titans and the rise for Batman was a huge part of that, but to me it really stunted Dick as a character. So, that being said, I'm really not a fan of the hero "families" and young characters remaining in them as they reach adulthood because it keeps them from reaching greater heights as characters, IMO. Plus, I like heroes having their own civilian supporting casts, and the families just make the heroes more and more insular, as they interact with regular people less because they're always interacting with other heroes instead.

So, anyway, I liked SB as a spin-off character, which means he needs to be spun-off and have his own story and only occasionally interact with Superman and Superman's inner circle, IMO.

[Stanlos]

For some reason, I thought all this Multiverse talk was to lead to the ability to tell stories from the original DCU Multiverse as though Crisis was halted and the plot device I mean Antimonitor was unsuccessful in killing all those verses outside of the first one. So we could see stories of what E2 Supes and E1 Supes have been up to as well as how everyone made out since that verse didn't see their Crisis play out like the one we saw originally.
Same for the Post Crisis verse, Post Zero Hour verse and onward.

Not sure why we are doing Lazarus and these other events as I thought the idea was that we aren't limited to a combined single continuity

[exile001]

Hank Henshaw the Cyborg Superman needs an actual codename. He should be called Cyber-Man or something.

He was just The Cyborg until Johns renamed him in Green Lantern. That was a period when Vic Stone was less relevant, though.

[superduperman]

For some reason, I thought all this Multiverse talk was to lead to the ability to tell stories from the original DCU Multiverse as though Crisis was halted and the plot device I mean Antimonitor was unsuccessful in killing all those verses outside of the first one. So we could see stories of what E2 Supes and E1 Supes have been up to as well as how everyone made out since that verse didn't see their Crisis play out like the one we saw originally.
Same for the Post Crisis verse, Post Zero Hour verse and onward.

Not sure why we are doing Lazarus and these other events as I thought the idea was that we aren't limited to a combined single continuity

This is what it SHOULD have been.

[phonogram12]

For some reason, I thought all this Multiverse talk was to lead to the ability to tell stories from the original DCU Multiverse as though Crisis was halted and the plot device I mean Antimonitor was unsuccessful in killing all those verses outside of the first one. So we could see stories of what E2 Supes and E1 Supes have been up to as well as how everyone made out since that verse didn't see their Crisis play out like the one we saw originally.
Same for the Post Crisis verse, Post Zero Hour verse and onward.

Not sure why we are doing Lazarus and these other events as I thought the idea was that we aren't limited to a combined single continuity

Honestly? I think the main reason DC brought back the Multiverse was to simply say "everything happened" so they'd have a built in excuse when continuity doesn't flow as seamlessly as fans would like while also appeasing the fanbase who's been clamoring for it's return all these years without having to do a whole lot of extra work. I don't ever see them not focusing on a single combined continuity and think the Multiverse will probably only be used to add a little flourish every once in awhile. Probably not the answer a lot of fans want, but I'm probably just going to content myself with the idea that all the Black Label, DC Horror, along with other OOC DC stories like Superman Space Age are peeks into those other worlds.

[The Frog Bros]

For some reason, I thought all this Multiverse talk was to lead to the ability to tell stories from the original DCU Multiverse as though Crisis was halted and the plot device I mean Antimonitor was unsuccessful in killing all those verses outside of the first one. So we could see stories of what E2 Supes and E1 Supes have been up to as well as how everyone made out since that verse didn't see their Crisis play out like the one we saw originally.
Same for the Post Crisis verse, Post Zero Hour verse and onward.

Not sure why we are doing Lazarus and these other events as I thought the idea was that we aren't limited to a combined single continuity

Yeah I feel like they marketed it that way as well. Like, it was this huge thing that got revealed at end of Death Metal with Elseworld too.

[superduperman]

I don't give Geoff Johns a lot of credit but at least he tried to make it work with the Earth's 1985 and 52. Apparently that wasn't good enough for DC.

[Stanlos]

I confess I don't much care for Multiverse stuff much.I think Hickman's (way too) long Avengers run dealing with that and only that burnt me out. I could handle it if it was just background like "hey! The E1 Firestorm is visiting today and will be on this adventure with Kal!"

But as the main focus? No thank you!

[marhawkman]

I confess I don't much care for Multiverse stuff much.I think Hickman's (way too) long Avengers run dealing with that and only that burnt me out. I could handle it if it was just background like "hey! The E1 Firestorm is visiting today and will be on this adventure with Kal!"

But as the main focus? No thank you!

See, there's many good things you can do with elseworlds... random visitors is probably the worst thing.

[Agent Z]

From Darren Mooney:

There is something deeply, deeply fascinating in the notion that nothing has been more damaging to "Superman" than the people who make the character so much of their identity.

In particular, their extremely limiting ideas of what he "is" or "must" be to be "really" him.

https://twitter.com/Darren_Mooney/st...tmYD6pY9A&s=19

Couldn't have said it better myself.