Controversial Superman Opinions

[Jon Clark]

From Darren Mooney:



https://twitter.com/Darren_Mooney/st...tmYD6pY9A&s=19

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Don't really understand the appeal of having a character so amorphous that any attempt to define him is seen as too limiting.

[Agent Z]

Don't really understand the appeal of having a character so amorphous that any attempt to define him is seen as too limiting.

We are talking about a character were you can take three versions of him that have little to no difference at their core and people will still insist one is superior to the other.

The different takes on Superman we've gotten aren't that extreme in their dissimilarities when you really examine them but somehow people still choose to find fault where none really exists.

[bat39]

From Darren Mooney:



https://twitter.com/Darren_Mooney/st...tmYD6pY9A&s=19

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Truly a brilliant analysis! And one of the biggest problems with the Superman fandom. No, scratch that...THE single biggest problem with the Superman fandom.

(Could have avoided the knock against Dean Cain though...)

[DochaDocha]

We are talking about a character were you can take three versions of him that have little to no difference at their core and people will still insist one is superior to the other.

The different takes on Superman we've gotten aren't that extreme in their dissimilarities when you really examine them but somehow people still choose to find fault where none really exists.

Largely agree. Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis Superman have more in common than they are dissimilar, likewise Post-Crisis and New 52 Superman, but people often do get hung up with a lot of the differences.

I don't entirely agree with the point about how Batman overtook Superman, but I do see the point. I feel like people can embrace the various types of Batman stories, but I think it's because the stories are very upfront about how they present Batman. If you tell them upfront that this is going to be a comedy, then they'll accept Adam West and Lego Batman. But, if you tell a semi-serious story and show Bruce Wayne chilling out and eating nachos after a long day of crime fighting, let the hand wringing commence.

[Kuwagaton]

I was wondering how that fared. The stories around the time of the identity reveal and after really lost me, but that had pretty much nothing to do with being "my" Superman.

[Jeffrey2]

Truly a brilliant analysis! And one of the biggest problems with the Superman fandom. No, scratch that...THE single biggest problem with the Superman fandom.

(Could have avoided the knock against Dean Cain though...)

The problem is not so much fan expectations as it's the lack of a large diverse Superman fanbase. Batman eclipsed Superman as DC's most popular/flagship character in the 90s. It did this on a foundation of a variety of takes and interpretations. Elseworld stories. That broad base of support allows Batman to print all kinds of different takes in the comics and most sell well. The different takes on Bats allowed the introduction of a host of support characters. Batman has the best gallery of foes/friends of any comic book character. His popularity is born of a diverse fanbase that allows two Batman film franchises to run concurrently while Superman is barely able to sustain a single franchise.

This is why, at a time when superhero films are making 800, 900 million and north of a billion, Superman films barely break even. John Campea asks the question is Superman still a viable film franchise. He's not sure. Superman Legacy sounds as if it will be a bit nostalgic. Not an STM redux but again going back to a vision that may no longer have broad appeal - despite a small group of Superman fans who insist that is the only way to do Superman. It is a huge risk as, if SL underperforms, the film franchise is dead.

The issue is not the expectations of a group of Superman fans, it is the lack of a broad base of Superman fans who would be open to/support varying interpretations. Ironically, MOS brought out a new group of Superman fans who liked Snyder's dark vision of Superman and wanted to see Snyder's vision play out in a JL 2 and 3. Films that would have totally re-imaged Superman. But this group is small too. They couldn't make MOS a success and they didn't turn out for Cavill's Superman appearance in BA.

Without a broad fanbase, Superman has problems no matter the iteration. Compounding the problems are that with just one (or two) small fanbases those fanbases can exert an inordinate amount of influence and actually hurt the franchise. Hence SR. Too, if the fans are totally sold on one vision, they may not support any deviation. Case in point - some Snyder MOS fans who say they won't go to see Gunn's Superman Legacy. Effectively hoping that it fails. Right now, the franchise is up the creek without a paddle.

[manwhohaseverything]

Truly a brilliant analysis! And one of the biggest problems with the Superman fandom. No, scratch that...THE single biggest problem with the Superman fandom.

(Could have avoided the knock against Dean Cain though...)

Don't know about being a superman fan. but..I think,i am pretty fine with different takes..As long it is entertaining i won't boo..If it's not,i will..Though generally i have my tastes in stories and characters.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I rather skip young Clark for Conner or Kenan but maybe Gunn could change my mind like Reeves did.

I'm cool with Superman not being the first superhero in universe. I'm fine with Iron Munro taking his place in the JSA.

I don't mind Clark as Superboy but I rather it was flashback material for an adult Superman.

I rather condense Kara and Power Girl as one character than keep them seperate. I rather use Power Girl in Gunn's DC movieverse.

I'm fine with Tanya Spears as Power Girl II.

[Ra-El]

The biggest problem with Superman Elseoworlds stories, is that most of the time it reads like a comic essay about Superman ("what he stands for", "is he still relevant", "should he do more") and not as a story about Superman.

For the past couple decades the writers appear to be more concerned in justifying Superman existence or deconstructing him than telling compelling stories about the character. Return have the "Why the world doesn't need Superman", Snyder have Superman doubting himself and humanity, and I think is part of why those movies weren't as successful as WB wanted.

Also, after reading Red & Blue[/I], it's impossible not to notice how every issue had basically the same type of stories, as if the writers didn't wanted or could think in nothing original.

[Stanlos]

The problem is not so much fan expectations as it's the lack of a large diverse Superman fanbase. Batman eclipsed Superman as DC's most popular/flagship character in the 90s. It did this on a foundation of a variety of takes and interpretations. Elseworld stories. That broad base of support allows Batman to print all kinds of different takes in the comics and most sell well. The different takes on Bats allowed the introduction of a host of support characters. Batman has the best gallery of foes/friends of any comic book character. His popularity is born of a diverse fanbase that allows two Batman film franchises to run concurrently while Superman is barely able to sustain a single franchise.

This is why, at a time when superhero films are making 800, 900 million and north of a billion, Superman films barely break even. John Campea asks the question is Superman still a viable film franchise. He's not sure. Superman Legacy sounds as if it will be a bit nostalgic. Not an STM redux but again going back to a vision that may no longer have broad appeal - despite a small group of Superman fans who insist that is the only way to do Superman. It is a huge risk as, if SL underperforms, the film franchise is dead.

The issue is not the expectations of a group of Superman fans, it is the lack of a broad base of Superman fans who would be open to/support varying interpretations. Ironically, MOS brought out a new group of Superman fans who liked Snyder's dark vision of Superman and wanted to see Snyder's vision play out in a JL 2 and 3. Films that would have totally re-imaged Superman. But this group is small too. They couldn't make MOS a success and they didn't turn out for Cavill's Superman appearance in BA.

Without a broad fanbase, Superman has problems no matter the iteration. Compounding the problems are that with just one (or two) small fanbases those fanbases can exert an inordinate amount of influence and actually hurt the franchise. Hence SR. Too, if the fans are totally sold on one vision, they may not support any deviation. Case in point - some Snyder MOS fans who say they won't go to see Gunn's Superman Legacy. Effectively hoping that it fails. Right now, the franchise is up the creek without a paddle.

I don't agree that there is even a question as to the viability of Superman as a franchise or IP.

He's SUPERMAN!

Of course he is viable.

But to be successful the team has to come from a place of celebrating Superman rather having a former director be the focus as in Superman Returns or trying to make Superman more like some other character as in Man of Steel.

[Agent Z]

I feel like some of the responses are proving my point.

[manwhohaseverything]

I tend to think superman has more vast variety of versions..while batman doesn't and is more consistent.The reason superman is polarising is simple..He has become fandom or pop culture equivalent of jesus

[godisawesome]

I actually think that the consistent success of cartoons and TV shows with Superman show that mainstream and hardcore fans aren't actually that hard to appeal to...provided you have time to focus on the longer view, how that applies to the expected tropes and details, and to modify what you have.

A longer show generally doesn't do "Space Jesus" or "Vapid Silver Age Lois" or "Dumb, 'Funny' Lex Luthor" because none of those archetypes work well in a longer story... and ultimately, that works.

Ultimately, I think a competent film is all that's needed, but that competence is, for whatever reason, not what movie creators aim for thus far.

[Jeffrey2]

I don't agree that there is even a question as to the viability of Superman as a franchise or IP.

He's SUPERMAN!

Of course he is viable.

But to be successful the team has to come from a place of celebrating Superman rather having a former director be the focus as in Superman Returns or trying to make Superman more like some other character as in Man of Steel.

Gunn has to find the sweet "middle" spot. Thread the needle. Neither SR nor MOS did well and S Legacy has to do well or Gunn's job may be on the line. Some think it's a big risk to launch WBD's DCU with a Superman film. I suspect Zaslav may be insisting on that and may not realize that the demand among the general movie-going audience is not necessarily there for another film at this time.

If Aquaman 2 does a billion (very possible) and Flash does 800 million (many expect it can do that and more) then Superman Legacy has to split the difference and do around 900 million to be seen as a success. It's not at all a given that SL can do that.

Superman works better on TV in terms of drawing a big enough audience to be successful. 850K viewers for S&L is considered a success while a 668 million BO for MOS was considered a significant underperformance. At the time the higher ups at WB were talking about MOS doing a billion. We'll see how it goes in terms of the final script and the casting of a new Superman actor. I think it is possible that WBD blinks and pushes a Brave & Bold film ahead of S Legacy as their first DCU film.

[Agent Z]

Gunn has to find the sweet "middle" spot. Thread the needle. Neither SR nor MOS did well and S Legacy has to do well or Gunn's job may be on the line. Some think it's a big risk to launch WBD's DCU with a Superman film. I suspect Zaslav may be insisting on that and may not realize that the demand among the general movie-going audience is not necessarily there for another film at this time.

If Aquaman 2 does a billion (very possible) and Flash does 800 million (many expect it can do that and more) then Superman Legacy has to split the difference and do around 900 million to be seen as a success. It's not at all a given that SL can do that.

Superman works better on TV in terms of drawing a big enough audience to be successful. 850K viewers for S&L is considered a success while a 668 million BO for MOS was considered a significant underperformance. At the time the higher ups at WB were talking about MOS doing a billion. We'll see how it goes in terms of the final script and the casting of a new Superman actor. I think it is possible that WBD blinks and pushes a Brave & Bold film ahead of S Legacy as their first DCU film.

I'd say viewing 668 million as an underperformance says more about WB than the film.