Controversial Superman Opinions

[Agent Z]

As a Superman reader I find it annoying, but I'll admit that it's less problematic. With Aquaman it leads to stories where he's sitting around being angry about Aquaman jokes (with the implication that these creators actually think they're doing cooler stories than Skeates did) and big screen depictions where they figure that making him attractive is getting an actor who looks like Namor.

And I guess problematic isn't quite the word because people like those takes, but unlike Superman they're essentially coming up with the idea of disassociation with his past.

I find that most Aquaman writers who address the jokes are at least trying to be humorous themselves (even Peter David's Aquaman never took itself all that seriously). But with Superman writers and fans, the need for a "more optimistic Superman" either just leads to them doing what other Superman writers are doing anyway or creates a more shallow, vapid take on Superman which doesn't help his reputation. My Adventures With Superman (which is very good) is an example of the former while the Superman from Action Comics #775 is an example of the latter.

[marhawkman]

Superman as a "naive idealist" is actually used in some stories as a positive force. The key is that he's not STUPID about it. This has resulted in him being able to be a positive influence on others. He convinced several former villains to become better people. Lashina? enh... she just wants him in bed, she's not really willing to do what he says. But then you have Scorch and Livewire, and Major Disaster who actually joined the Justice League because of Superman.

[Kuwagaton]

I find that most Aquaman writers who address the jokes are at least trying to be humorous themselves (even Peter David's Aquaman never took itself all that seriously). But with Superman writers and fans, the need for a "more optimistic Superman" either just leads to them doing what other Superman writers are doing anyway or creates a more shallow, vapid take on Superman which doesn't help his reputation. My Adventures With Superman (which is very good) is an example of the former while the Superman from Action Comics #775 is an example of the latter.

Like Byrne's run, I tend to get shocked that the occasional reaction I come across for #775 is so bitter. Because I'm so used to people from other platforms expressing almost the opposite, the idea that not everyone remotely likes the same thing doesn't cross my mind until I see a post like, "___ ruined Superman." What's So Funny was the most popular I remember from the time, launching The Elite and Manchester Black in particular. That single issue was enough for its own animated feature. For a little while it was a comic with a relatively decent price as a back issue, something people sought out. Beats me.

Oh and of course with Aquaman of thinking of like, Johns and Abnett. Good comics but if I wanted to read about how Aquaman is a joke then I wouldn't buy his comics. David did a great job when I was growing up though and I hope to get on those reprints if they ever do more of his run.

[superduperman]

MAWS isn't the greatest Superman cartoon.

[llozymandias]

Superman as a "naive idealist" is actually used in some stories as a positive force. The key is that he's not STUPID about it. This has resulted in him being able to be a positive influence on others. He convinced several former villains to become better people. Lashina? enh... she just wants him in bed, she's not really willing to do what he says. But then you have Scorch and Livewire, and Major Disaster who actually joined the Justice League because of Superman.

When written right, Superman is someone who has seen the extremes of good and evil in human potential. He has also seen that even the most evil individuals are capable of doing good. It's not that he convinces villains to be better people. It's that he convinces them that they can be better people. As for Lashina it's possible that Superman is the only one who treats her like a person. Instead of a weapon to use, or a vicious animal to put down.

[marhawkman]

When written right, Superman is someone who has seen the extremes of good and evil in human potential. He has also seen that even the most evil individuals are capable of doing good. It's not that he convinces villains to be better people. It's that he convinces them that they can be better people. As for Lashina it's possible that Superman is the only one who treats her like a person. Instead of a weapon to use, or a vicious animal to put down.

yeah that's a decent way of looking at it.

[TaliaJoy]

My most controversial opinion has got to be that I think Superman Year One #1 is a masterpiece. The second issue is approximately half-good and the third issue honestly sucks, which I think are probably not very controversial takes.

MAWS isn't the greatest Superman cartoon.

Eh? I don't think Superman: The Animated Series or the Fleischer shorts have fallen from grace to the extent that that's controversial. (Though if your favorite Superman cartoon isn't any of those, then that'd be a controversial opinion.)

[Kuwagaton]

I remember Year One being better than the sum of its parts. Honestly, I'm always tempted to buy the collection because I lost those issues maybe a month after it wrapped up. But there's the chance that it doesn't hold on a second read

[superduperman]

My most controversial opinion has got to be that I think Superman Year One #1 is a masterpiece. The second issue is approximately half-good and the third issue honestly sucks, which I think are probably not very controversial takes.

The first issue was a pretty standard Superman origin. It was fine as far as origins go. It's after that it kind of goes off the rails. The whole Little Mermaid part was a bit much. There were better ways to incorporate Lori into the story. Miller definitely needs a handler to rein in his worst impulses. That's why I'm glad they paired him up with Azzerello for that one sequel.

Eh? I don't think Superman: The Animated Series or the Fleischer shorts have fallen from grace to the extent that that's controversial. (Though if your favorite Superman cartoon isn't any of those, then that'd be a controversial opinion.)

My favorite animated Superman is the Ruby Spears one. That's mostly age bias. It's the one I grew up with. MAWS is a little too anime for my tastes, but, to be fair, I've only seen the first episode all the way through. My take on it, based on what I've seen, is that it's more of an animated version of L&C from the 1990s. If other people like it, great.

[Ascended]

MAWS isn't the greatest Superman cartoon.

Is anyone saying it is? For my money, that's the old Fleshier shorts.

So At Home On The Farm Clark is more Brawny iconography than ranchhand or cowboy style dress. How do think his Daily Planet day and casual night style is like? Do you think in their private moments, that Lois might surprise Clark in nothing but his Superman cape a la the Lois & Clark marketing image with Hatcher and Cain?

That marketing campaign was really well done. And I was exactly the right age for it to catch my eye in exactly the way they intended. Erica Durance is 'my' live-action Lois (despite not being a huge Smallville fan), but Hatcher is the actress who really made me take note of Lois for the first time, if you know what I mean? Definitely gave me a new appreciation for that cape, lemme tell you.

As for the fashion....I figure at work, Clark dresses professionally. Suit and tie. I think he respects the profession too much for anything less even if low-end 'business casual' seems to be the norm now. At home he dresses basic, old t-shirts and comfy pants. At the farm, it's work clothes; button down shirt and heavy jeans that'll handle the wear-and-tear of manual labor.

Like Byrne's run, I tend to get shocked that the occasional reaction I come across for #775 is so bitter.

We've talked about this before, but maybe I can explain it like this.

Action 775 is the 'thoughts and prayers' Superman. He doesn't actually do anything, he's not trying to change or improve people's lives or situations, he's just blindly maintaining the status quo, ignoring the evidence that shows the status quo needs improving, and offers nothing but cheap words about abstract things like 'hope' when things go bad.

He's the politician who, in the aftermath of school shootings, says it's such a heartbreaking tragedy and he'll pray for the victims, but then votes against any bill that tries to make an actual difference and tries to impeach the folks who introduced it to the floor.

Empty words. That's all 775 has to offer. 775 is the ted cruz of Superman comics.

But the issue does get major props for giving us Manchester Black. And I know it was a popular story for a while, and I'm not trying to change opinions on that. But those of us who dislike the story? This is why. It's why *I* dislike it, anyway.

[Kuwagaton]

Thoughts and prayers is about sentiment without action, yeah. But... there is Action, and I just don't get how it's empty talk if he stands up to them. The Elite call him out and he shows up, and when he shows up he shows everyone what he means with an example: he can beat them at their game. He clearly proves that he can, but then points out that he finds it cheap and not a solution that reinforces hope.

For a "thoughts and prayers" Superman he'd have been talking without demonstrating his point. And I'd get the idea of him looking hypocritical if it wasn't lampshaded in the story in a way that considers the fact that they're the ones who challenged him, with the idea of killing him no less. If that ultimately still makes Superman look like a "punching guy" and not a guy who actually helps well... there's his entire career before and after this incident. He spends so much time on the ground and not the sidelines that I have to argue that he'd get a pass for not being his most productive although still active, if we at least agree on that part.

[Ascended]

Thoughts and prayers is about sentiment without action, yeah. But... there is Action, and I just don't get how it's empty talk if he stands up to them. The Elite call him out and he shows up, and when he shows up he shows everyone what he means with an example: he can beat them at their game.

And usually that'd be fine. Most comics, it doesn't matter how sympathetic the bad guy is, they're still the villain and wrong by default. But this issue was a debate that demanded Clark justify his position instead of merely enforcing it. And he fails. Clark never proves his point at any point in any scene, and rarely even manages to express it with clarity. He never has a rebuttal to what Black says, and no response to the rebuttals Black makes against him. Instead he loses the talking points, ignores the injustices shown to him (such as the alien refugees being weaponized and sold on the black market, all through the prison system he's arguing in favor of). And in the end he's forced to resort to his opponent's 'talking points' and then preens as if he'd won the moral victory.

He might as well have knocked out a dude while playing chess, and then claimed to be a grandmaster who won the game.

I call this the 'thoughts and prayers' Superman because, just like the politician after a school shooting, Clark doesn't actually do anything to deal with the issue at hand. It could be said the politician is doing something too; prayer is 'something' after all, but it doesn't stop the next shooting from happening. 775 gives us a Superman more concerned with the status quo than with whether it deserves his protection, someone more concerned with symbolism than with the actual lives of regular people. What good is Clark's hope to those alien refugees? What good is it to the people suffering under a system if he refuses to even acknowledge the parts of it that have become corrupt? Clark talks about immaterial and abstract things, never providing any real reason why his methods are superior and certainly not why it has a better outcome for society. He wins the physical fight, but that doesn't show his argument is best, it just shows that he can punch harder.

The meta argument is that fans didn't want Superman to fall into the fad of edgy 90's anti-heroes like Spawn, the Authority, or Witchblade. Which we never did anyway. But even there, the coolest moment Clark has is when he's acting like an edgy 90's anti-hero, crushing his foes with extreme prejudice and then bragging about it. That he didn't kill them could almost been seen as worse; giving Black a power-killing lobotomy without his knowledge or consent isn't exactly gentle justice.

If that ultimately still makes Superman look like a "punching guy" and not a guy who actually helps well... there's his entire career before and after this incident.

In the grand scheme of things yeah I'm with you there. Hel, 775 gave us Manchester Black which is enough to forgive 775's flaws, and then some. Black might be the best Super villain created during my lifetime and I'm thankful 775 gave him to us. But that's as far as my gratitude goes. But again, I'm in the minority here. It's a popular story, even today, and most of y'all don't agree with me. Which is cool, I'm comfortable with that and I'm glad folks liked the issue. I always want Clark to be successful and popular, even if I don't like the particular version or story in question.

[Kuwagaton]

I don't remember if the movie fleshed those parts out. Clark says he'll get with the League on that matter since he wasn't familiar with it and also had to contend with the Elite murdering those agents before he could really get to anything else. I don't think it's not so much about the DEO status quo as the idea of not shooting first as a response. The question he framed to Jonathan was related to that idea and well, in real life we did have the antihero years (the Authority count, but you can also point to the Punisher and his like). We also had people later who really, really had a bad reaction to Superman killing in the MoS movie. He was right about how people see him and what they expect in that sense, and punching harder was sort of a misdirection since people were more shocked about how it happened than the fact that he won.

But y'know , I wish I could be happier about people enjoying takes I don't, on the other hand. I kinda wish I could wipe Superman 2 and 4 away sometimes even if 2 had plenty of decent bits.

[manwhohaseverything]

I don't remember if the movie fleshed those parts out. Clark says he'll get with the League on that matter since he wasn't familiar with it and also had to contend with the Elite murdering those agents before he could really get to anything else. I don't think it's not so much about the DEO status quo as the idea of not shooting first as a response.

That's exactly why he falls flat on his face.There is a story written by bendis with jon.Jon writes a beautiful message in the sky about hope or something.Meanwhile people people are stuck in traffic because of some beuracrat or big shot was moving around.

These guys are first responders or supposed to be.Parallel justice and all that.Yet,superman writers is like "the hero call the police or some big shot and find out".There was nothing for me to root for.

I like my characters goofy and energetic.And getting into superman after initial phase with morrison was hard.Samething with jon and tomasi.It's like the protagonist sucks the life out of everything and leaves a boring shell that doesn't have any fun or intrigue.So edgy or not it doesn't help any cause.

[Ascended]

I don't remember if the movie fleshed those parts out.

Never watched it. But if it had Clark actually making his argument successfully and not ignoring everything? That'd solve most everything wrong with the story. And I don't get why 775 fails to make its point either, it's not a tough argument to make. I don't want an anti-hero Superman either, but it's a big failing in my mind that Clark couldn't properly justify or defend his actions.

But y'know , I wish I could be happier about people enjoying takes I don't, on the other hand. I kinda wish I could wipe Superman 2 and 4 away sometimes even if 2 had plenty of decent bits

Eh, what's it to me if Superman III exists? I don't have to watch it, or engage in conversations about it if I don't want to. Besides, success breeds success. The more content we get, the higher the odds that I'll enjoy some of it. Look at what we got now, and all the variety at our fingertips; from Smash the Space Age to Lost and everything in-between, I don't believe there can be a Super fan left on earth who didn't enjoy 'something' from the last few years. Maybe you're not a fan of DC Super Hero Girls or that CW show, but they helped make new Supergirl fans, and they gave their money to DC too, and now there's new comics for Kara, and a movie in a few years, etc.