Controversial Superman Opinions

[13th Superman]

Controversial opinion: "Grounded" was a good--even great--idea, AND a better executed version of it should've been done instead of a completely rebooted Superman in the New 52. The arc should've still been written by Morrison (with maybe a more consistent artist) and the tee shirt and jeans aesthetic should've still been kept.

The idea for "Grounded" was that Superman felt that he was loosing touch with the average person on the street. He rectifies this by literally walking across America, and writing wrongs as he sees them. This isn't actually a dumb idea, believe it or not. This is actually a pretty cool idea for a classic Americana-style folk tale like Paul Bunyan. Guy in a cape rolls into town like a classic cowboy, helps people with whatever problems they have, gives a wink and a smile, and then goes on to the next town. I suggest they put they guy in work boots, jeans, a t-shirt, and keep the cape. I would've liked to see them mix "Grounded," Morrison's run, and Truth into one.

Basically the New 52 could've been a continuation/soft reboot as opposed to a full reboot. We could've entered the new number one with burning questions: why's Superman dressed like that? Why isn't he in Metropolis? Who's protecting the city and the world if he's on this walk? What does Lois think of this? Who does Lois keep secretly meeting at night (spoilers: it's Superman. Clark marks the spot where stops his walk, and he goes to spend a bit of time with Lois and their son a few nights out of the week)

Have Jimmy follow Superman a few miles behind on his little motorbike. Jimmy catches the back draft of all of Superman's strange folk tale adventures (and even creates some of his own). This would reestablish Jimmy in way that no one ever bothered to do in a while. Maybe even make his little adventures backups for the main book (there's a issue where Jimmy is dealing with the effects of sleep deprivation, and he's hallucinating because of it.) . While Clark is off on his walk, Lois is holdin' it down in Metropolis (as one of Action Comics' main stars). Supergirl, Kon-El, and Steel guest star as they both take shifts protecting the city. Each has a specific viewpoint on what Clark is doing with his time. Each of their view points says something specific about their personality, ideals, and part in the Superman family. The introduction of Lee Lambert is also in this book.

Superman's folk tale adventures are somewhere between tall tales and social justice stories. It's also a sort of tor through a chunk of the DCU (at points even ending up in space and the future). It would be THE book to get for the purposed relaunch. One of the adventures is Clark having to find someone to fix the worn down bottoms of his work boots, and then seeing the craziness the spawns from the seemingly simple task. New 52 story of the boy who stole Superman's cape is re imagined in here. Eventually everything culminates with the 5D imp Vyn attacking Superman and trying to breakdown his concpet and shake his faith.

I think that's what "Grounded" could've been. Add to this the idea of a better told New Krypton story, the current Rebirth stories, and you've got a pretty good Superman who didn't even need to reboot.


Notes: Clark becomes a reserve member of the JLA for the duration of "Grounded." If the situation is bleak enough, he'll mark the spot he stops his walk at, and then fly to fight with the League. Clark changes his suit for the duration of the arc to be symbolic. Jon is about 8 years old during the arc, and makes time to see his son even through the duration of the arc. In comic his time walking is about two months give or take. He puts on a new (Man of Steel ish) costume at the end of the conclusion of the arc to symbolize his new strengthened resolve (the Jim Lee suit is never a thing). Action Comics, for the duration of the "Grounded" arc, becomes something of an anthology book like it used to be way back when. It's all in the interest of REALLY fleshing out the city, supporting cast, foes, and concepts. It basically gives Superman something concrete to come back to once the arc is over.

Holy **** man! This would have been amazing. If you could somehow throw in Kentville and the "Supermen" who reside in it, I'm sold.

[misslane]

But did they know Clark Kent and Diana Prince weren't "real"? What if they were "real", they still were shown ignoring those personas. Isn't that where the whole weird "triangle of two" comes from? JLA has callbacks so the writer/producer(s) didn't just pull it out of no where. It had to be refferring back from somewhere in the comics, right? But anyway this is all irrelevant and digging too much in a cartoon. That wasn't even the main point of the cartoon anyway.

The JLA callbacks were based on popular misconceptions about Silver Age dual identity dynamics. I guess I prefer my callbacks to be accurate and fair instead of lazy. There's no need to perpetuate outdated misinterpretations to prop up a contrived romance subplot for a kids' cartoon. It doesn't matter if Lois and Steve didn't know Clark and Diana weren't real because the reason Superman and Wonder Woman decided to give up on Lois and Steve was because they wanted them to see and love the REAL them. If Superman and Wonder Woman knew that Clark and Diana weren't real, then their reasons for choosing each other over Lois and Steve is pure BS.

JLA Diana is smart, confident, strong, lighthearted, and fun which is how she should be. She is equal to Superman which now in comics she isn't anymore. The title is Justice League ACTION...so she will be doing alot of action-y things. Rebirth Diana is dull being a major downgrade from the fire new52 version had. She offers nothing in justice league nor trinity book or any other team up for that matter like in the Holiday special.

Smart, confident, strong, lighthearted, and fun is a generic description for a hero let alone a female hero. It is not a set of adjectives unique to the very unique Wonder Woman.

[misslane]

themselves are accurate from a pre-Crisis point of view

It is not accurate because neither Clark Kent nor Diana Prince were the real selves of Superman and Wonder Woman.

[Francisco]

It is not accurate because neither Clark Kent nor Diana Prince were the real selves of Superman and Wonder Woman.

Lois and Steve didn't know that and they both rejected them and prefered the spandex/caped versions.

[Vanguard-01]

It is not accurate because neither Clark Kent nor Diana Prince were the real selves of Superman and Wonder Woman.

It is, however, accurate that Silver Age Steve didn't even behave lovingly toward Wonder Woman. He was an emotionally abusive a-hole who constantly tried to make her feel guilty for not being a Stepford Wife, basically.

And even if Superman and Wonder Woman know that Clark and Diana aren't real, it speaks to Lois and Steve's maturity that they are only interested in the persona who has powers and does feats of superhuman might on a routine basis. For whatever reason, both Wonder Woman and Superman deem their secret identities to be necessary. They feel they CAN'T reveal their true identities to Lois and Steve, and thus cannot be with them with any degree of honesty. Hence? They turn to each other, where they CAN just be themselves. It's not necessarily an indictment of Steve and Lois at all. It's just emphasizing the point that they don't feel like they can actually be with them at this time.

And JLA Diana is far from generic. I'm a veteran Wonder Woman fan, and I think this is one of the best incarnations of Diana ever. And yes, I'd feel the same way if she was dating Steve Trevor. I loved JLA Diana from the first episode, long before the relationship was known.

She's strong, brave, compassionate, and intelligent. The rest of the League clearly respects her, as they completely went along with her call to establish the League's new headquarters and to name it the Watchtower. There are no "unique" qualities of Wonder Woman's that are missing here. Trust me, I'd know.

[Sacred Knight]

All I pointed out was that the dynamics between Lois and Clark and Diana and Steve here in this episode, as insinuated by the two title characters, were accurate representations of said status quo in the pre-Crisis days. When Lois was romantically interested in Superman, not Clark, and Steve was romantically interested in Wonder Woman but not Diana Prince. Of course they were being duped and didn't know it, but I'm not claiming they weren't. And as I already pointed out, its not lost on me the irony of Clark and Diana commenting on their ignorance when its they themselves who craft and perpetuate these identities to make others ignorant. I just don't care, as this is a lighthearted comedy.

[dangleo61288]

It is, however, accurate that Silver Age Steve didn't even behave lovingly toward Wonder Woman. He was an emotionally abusive a-hole who constantly tried to make her feel guilty for not being a Stepford Wife, basically.

And even if Superman and Wonder Woman know that Clark and Diana aren't real, it speaks to Lois and Steve's maturity that they are only interested in the persona who has powers and does feats of superhuman might on a routine basis. For whatever reason, both Wonder Woman and Superman deem their secret identities to be necessary. They feel they CAN'T reveal their true identities to Lois and Steve, and thus cannot be with them with any degree of honesty. Hence? They turn to each other, where they CAN just be themselves. It's not necessarily an indictment of Steve and Lois at all. It's just emphasizing the point that they don't feel like they can actually be with them at this time.

And JLA Diana is far from generic. I'm a veteran Wonder Woman fan, and I think this is one of the best incarnations of Diana ever. And yes, I'd feel the same way if she was dating Steve Trevor. I loved JLA Diana from the first episode, long before the relationship was known.

She's strong, brave, compassionate, and intelligent. The rest of the League clearly respects her, as they completely went along with her call to establish the League's new headquarters and to name it the Watchtower. There are no "unique" qualities of Wonder Woman's that are missing here. Trust me, I'd know.

We actually really don't know how Lois or Steve view Clark or Diana. We only have what Clark and Diana said which could be all wrong. Lois and Steve both could have gave hints to them that they where interested in dating but Clark and Diana didn't pick them up, which to Lois and to Steve appeared as them being unintersted in a relationship. So Lois and Steve gave up. We actually have to see the interactions between them happen to judge it.
And if what they said is true it is poor writing. In the comics the reasoning was that Lois's and Steve lives could be endangered, this was I thought much better in that it showed much Clark and Diana cared for Lois and Steve. But what JLA did is damaging to Lois and Steve. Just read the comments that people left on Youtube.

[Vanguard-01]

It was a two-minute conversation in an 11-minute episode in a show marketed to kids. The relationship has yet to appear in any subsequent episode. For all we know the entire thing will never appear again.

This entire conversation is a classic case of making a mountain out of a mole hill.

[Jim Kelly]

Originally, Diana Prince had an independent existence. Wonder Woman assumed the identity, but the real Diana Prince continued to exist. So, at least in the 1940s, the Amazing Amazon was doing an impersonation of the original Diana Prince.

Maybe by the 1950s that fact was forgotten.

But in the 1960s, Diana Prince came into her own and the super-hero Wonder Woman was gone. To me this mod Diana felt more like a real person. Given the Comics Code, sex outside of marriage could not be suggested; however, reading Mike Sekowsky's Diana, it's kind of clear that, as a sexually liberated woman, she was intimate with her partners--certainly with Timothy Trench and probably with Jonny Double (and it looks like Bruce Wayne was trying to knock her back on her heels, too). It's like once Diana didn't have to carry the burden of being this high ideal, Wonder Woman, she could act like a real flesh and blood person.

As for Clark, those times when he for whatever reason stops being Superman and has to live life as a regular person, he emerges as a passionate personality. That was true when he lost his memory and as Jim White romanced Sally Selwyn. And likewise when they took the Super out of Superman, Clark started living a more honest existence--and Lois Lane fell in love with him.

[Sacred Knight]

Not to mention that if and when Lois and Steve do show up in the show, Clark and Diana will be shown to care about them. Why the hell wouldn't they, all the characters are friendly in this show, its not overly-serious nor dramatic. All those comments on YouTube? Its just your average shipping war. And no I'm not using that comment in a derogatory fashion, its just a fact of the matter the only people who care one way or another are those who have high stakes in a particular relationship. Which is so not indicative of what your average viewer is thinking watching these shows. In other words I think its highly unlikely that your average viewer comes out of this with some damaging new interpretation of Lois Lane and Steve Trevor. No more than they come away thinking Batman's a big ole' meany because of the constant jokes about him not having a sense of humor. In fact considering they haven't shown up yet, likely they have no opinion of them at all yet.

[DochaDocha]

I enjoy Justice League Action, but it's a slightly less stupid take on the Justice League than Teen Titans Go is on Teen Titans. I wouldn't go too crazy with heavy analysis. There was one episode that was basically spoilers:

one huge parody of Street Fighter, and to a lesser extent, Injustice. They even aped the attract mode of Street Fighter Alpha 2. Considering my affinity to Street Fighter, I loved this episode, but my sister and brother-in-law were far less amused. They're not wrong.

end of spoilers

[misslane]

All I pointed out was that the dynamics between Lois and Clark and Diana and Steve here in this episode, as insinuated by the two title characters, were accurate representations of said status quo in the pre-Crisis days. When Lois was romantically interested in Superman, not Clark, and Steve was romantically interested in Wonder Woman but not Diana Prince. Of course they were being duped and didn't know it, but I'm not claiming they weren't. And as I already pointed out, its not lost on me the irony of Clark and Diana commenting on their ignorance when its they themselves who craft and perpetuate these identities to make others ignorant. I just don't care, as this is a lighthearted comedy.

What was being described was not accurate in any way. Lois, for example, clearly does love the real person. She loves Superman! She also sees beneath the surface to the truth because she spends most of the Silver Age trying to prove that Clark Kent is Superman. The Pre-Crisis dynamic between Lois and Superman/Clark, therefore, is completely misrepresented on the show. What is represented, however, is the popular misconception of the Pre-Crisis dynamic, which means JLA is perpetuating an inaccurate stereotype. I care about how a lighthearted comedy for kids continues to push misrepresentations of Lois Lane from an era of comic books that were mired in a backward misogynist mindset.

It's been decades and generations since even the unrealistic stereotype of Lois as a gold digger who loves the power fantasy more than the real man behind the \S/ has been a thing. The only characterization that most young people know is one in which Lois does love Clark. So why does JLA return to the more backward stereotype from a bygone era? Is this really the ONLY way to set up Superman and Wonder Woman? Surely, a writer who wants to create a fun romantic date between Superman and Wonder Woman can come up with more progressive, relevant, and interesting fodder than outdated Silver Age bull****.

[Sacred Knight]

They did both. They had Lois trying to deduce that Clark was Superman, but sometimes they didn't and had her none the wiser. Its wishy washy because there was not much continuity back then. And when she wasn't trying to prove Clark was Superman, they played on the "she likes Superman but thinks Clark is a dork" thing. Its not a misinterpretation, its just one interpretation of one aspect of those days. If you don't like it, that's fine. If you think its bullcrap, that's fine too. Not telling anyone they have to think otherwise there.

[misslane]

It is, however, accurate that Silver Age Steve didn't even behave lovingly toward Wonder Woman. He was an emotionally abusive a-hole who constantly tried to make her feel guilty for not being a Stepford Wife, basically.

So, you're telling me is that JLA's presentation of Wonder Woman's perspective on Steve is okay because it's just a nod to the Silver Age in order to explain why Diana would feel like Steve doesn't love her for her, yet you're also saying that Silver Age Steve on whom you say this characterization is based doesn't even behave well towards Wonder Woman. Think about that for a second. Think about it in the context of the scene from the episode. Diana isn't sharing information about Steve in an exasperated way. She and Clark are talking about two people in their lives that they obviously wish would care for them as much as they care. In other words, Clark wants Lois to love him because he loves her. Diana wants Steve to love her because she loves him. What you're telling me, then, is that this Diana in JLA has unrequited love for a Steve Trevor who treats her heroic persona like garbage and her civilian persona like she's invisible. That Clark would think Steve and Diana could have been a thing and that Diana would still want Steve's love after he treats her as you describe makes her look like she has issues.

And even if Superman and Wonder Woman know that Clark and Diana aren't real, it speaks to Lois and Steve's maturity that they are only interested in the persona who has powers and does feats of superhuman might on a routine basis. For whatever reason, both Wonder Woman and Superman deem their secret identities to be necessary. They feel they CAN'T reveal their true identities to Lois and Steve, and thus cannot be with them with any degree of honesty. Hence? They turn to each other, where they CAN just be themselves. It's not necessarily an indictment of Steve and Lois at all. It's just emphasizing the point that they don't feel like they can actually be with them at this time.

First of all, Lois and Steve don't have to be an obstacle because of the secret identity. They can be in on the secret. Second of all, if it really just comes down to the outdated idea that they can't be with Lois and Steve because knowing their secret identities would put them in harm's way and that, just in general, their powers make it difficult for them to connect without worrying about these vulnerable humans getting hurt, then the characters should have been written to at least give that reason instead of the idiotic one that they did. They can say that worrying about their safety and hating having to lie makes any relationship with Lois and Steve too risky, complicated, and painful. They should have put the burden on themselves instead of disparaging Lois and Steve for failing somehow to do something that they aren't even doing (they do like the true selves of Superman and Wonder Woman). It's just bad writing and characterization.

And JLA Diana is far from generic. I'm a veteran Wonder Woman fan, and I think this is one of the best incarnations of Diana ever. And yes, I'd feel the same way if she was dating Steve Trevor. I loved JLA Diana from the first episode, long before the relationship was known.

She's strong, brave, compassionate, and intelligent. The rest of the League clearly respects her, as they completely went along with her call to establish the League's new headquarters and to name it the Watchtower. There are no "unique" qualities of Wonder Woman's that are missing here. Trust me, I'd know.

Her compassion, her grace, and her wisdom are seldom on display. I haven't seen much yet in terms of sisterhood either, and that's mainly because the show refuses to have more than one female on the team or helping the team at a given time.

It was a two-minute conversation in an 11-minute episode in a show marketed to kids. The relationship has yet to appear in any subsequent episode. For all we know the entire thing will never appear again.

This entire conversation is a classic case of making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Yet even in that short amount of time they were able to do a terrible job with it. It doesn't exactly instill confidence.

[misslane]

They did both. They had Lois trying to deduce that Clark was Superman, but sometimes they didn't and had her none the wiser. Its wishy washy because there was not much continuity back then. And when she wasn't trying to prove Clark was Superman, they played on the "she likes Superman but thinks Clark is a dork" thing. Its not a misinterpretation, its just one interpretation of one aspect of those days. If you don't like it, that's fine. If you think its bullcrap, that's fine too. Not telling anyone they have to think otherwise there.

So out of the entire canon, you're saying that these JLA writers chose the worst of the worst characterizations of Steve and Lois to justify pairing Diana and Clark? I don't know why anyone would like or defend that, and it still doesn't address the fact that the "real" Superman isn't a dork, but okay. Like what you like, I guess.