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  1. #766
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Controversial opinion: I absolutely detest it when Superman is instantly dismissive, overly mean spirited, and just overall an unnecessary d!ck to Lex Luthor. I know, I know "but Lex is a bad guy, and has done super bad things in the past, so Superman is right to be mean to him." I'd agree with you if Superman were predisposed to that sort of grudge holding, but he's just not. And it's not because "dude he's Superman" (well it sort of is), but it's actually more because Superman--Clark sees the bigger picture regarding Lex. The Lex and Superman stand off is made possible and interesting by the idea that our hero actually wants to ultimately see our villain become a better person, and our hero totally believes it's possible. Clark doesn't just hate Lex like an action movie star hates the bad guy. When Clark looks at Lex he sees proof positive of inherent human potential. Every time Lex makes a device that can crack open dimensions out of an old watch and some cooking foil, I gotta believe that Clark's has a feeling of genuine wonder and "wow he really freakin did this" to him. So whenever I read Lobdell, Jurgens or whatever 90's writer have Superman yoke Lex up even before he has the facts, I gotta roll my eyes. That's missing the point, imo. And whenever I see them describe Lex as irredeemable I think to myself "so then did Superman just straight give up? I thought he wasn't in the habit of doing that."

    That said, Superman/Clark can and will get extremely frustrated and mad with Lex, because the longer Lex is the Lex we know then it's spitting on the idea that humanities potential can be used for good. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy those scenes where Clark burst into Lex's office or hideout with righteous fury, but it CAN'T come from that whole cop shaking down a prep angle. I like Superman who can sometimes trick Lex into doing good or the one who can deflate Lex's ranting with a smile and a clever string of words. Sometimes Clark gets to the point where he's boiling mad, but that shouldn't be his default when he sees Lex.

    So you can imagine that what's going on in Action Comics right now just isn't my bag at all. It actually makes me cringe a bit.

    Opinion 2: Lex is basically a semi regular supporting cast member who doesn't have to serve as the villain every time he's in a comic.

  2. #767
    Death becomes you Osiris-Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666MasterOfPuppets View Post
    You and me both. That's why I think that the sunlight thing has to be retooled. the red sun thing must go.

    As for his size, I'd go a bit further and put him at 7 feet tall at least, bodybuilder physique and at least 600 pounds. I've toyed with him weighing a ton, haven't decided yet.

    Y'know, "super-dense molecular structure" and all that jazz.
    Also going to be someone that asks, don't you think a 7' tall 4' wide Clark Kent would stand out in a crowd? I'm not sure even wearing glasses would maintain his anonymity.

  3. #768
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Controversial opinion: I absolutely detest it when Superman is instantly dismissive, overly mean spirited, and just overall an unnecessary d!ck to Lex Luthor. I know, I know "but Lex is a bad guy, and has done super bad things in the past, so Superman is right to be mean to him." I'd agree with you if Superman were predisposed to that sort of grudge holding, but he's just not. And it's not because "dude he's Superman" (well it sort of is), but it's actually more because Superman--Clark sees the bigger picture regarding Lex. The Lex and Superman stand off is made possible and interesting by the idea that our hero actually wants to ultimately see our villain become a better person, and our hero totally believes it's possible. Clark doesn't just hate Lex like an action movie star hates the bad guy. When Clark looks at Lex he sees proof positive of inherent human potential. Every time Lex makes a device that can crack open dimensions out of an old watch and some cooking foil, I gotta believe that Clark's has a feeling of genuine wonder and "wow he really freakin did this" to him. So whenever I read Lobdell, Jurgens or whatever 90's writer have Superman yoke Lex up even before he has the facts, I gotta roll my eyes. That's missing the point, imo. And whenever I see them describe Lex as irredeemable I think to myself "so then did Superman just straight give up? I thought he wasn't in the habit of doing that."

    That said, Superman/Clark can and will get extremely frustrated and mad with Lex, because the longer Lex is the Lex we know then it's spitting on the idea that humanities potential can be used for good. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy those scenes where Clark burst into Lex's office or hideout with righteous fury, but it CAN'T come from that whole cop shaking down a prep angle. I like Superman who can sometimes trick Lex into doing good or the one who can deflate Lex's ranting with a smile and a clever string of words. Sometimes Clark gets to the point where he's boiling mad, but that shouldn't be his default when he sees Lex.

    So you can imagine that what's going on in Action Comics right now just isn't my bag at all. It actually makes me cringe a bit.

    Opinion 2: Lex is basically a semi regular supporting cast member who doesn't have to serve as the villain every time he's in a comic.
    I'm more annoyed in stories where he's instantly hostile to Lex before any proof of wrongdoing on Lex's part. American Alien being an example.

  4. #769
    AT EASE, LOO-SUH! Superlad93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    I'm more annoyed in stories where he's instantly hostile to Lex before any proof of wrongdoing on Lex's part. American Alien being an example.
    Interestingly enough, I was fine with AA's depiction simply because it was the very first time Clark had faced anything like that. I also give a pass for it being a younger Superman. The ending also gets points from me. I'm not totally against Superman entering Lex's office unannounced. I just can't stand it when Clark comes off as overly dismissive. I know not everyone is into the idea that Superman sees something in Lex that he doesn't see in himself, but I think it's pretty key.

    I think their relationship eventually evolves to the point where Clark sees that possibility for good, but is frustrated by how Lex rails against it so strongly. I think Clark starts off pretty standard hero vs villain (sort of Tom and Jerry-like in it's tit for tat nature) with Lex, but then as time goes on Clark realizes the true tragedy of Lex.

    Age comes wisdom, so that's why I can't get behind the current older Superman being so dismissive, but I can be okay with a younger Clark being more too the point and forceful. The diffrrence is that one knows and "gets it" while the other is still getting a handle on things.

  5. #770
    Omnes Viae Ad Infernum 666MasterOfPuppets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DochaDocha View Post
    Quick question, you want Clark Kent to be that big, too?
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    7 feet tall? In this take, do you still envision him as maintaining the Clark Kent identity?
    Quote Originally Posted by Osiris-Rex View Post
    Also going to be someone that asks, don't you think a 7' tall 4' wide Clark Kent would stand out in a crowd? I'm not sure even wearing glasses would maintain his anonymity.
    In short: yes, guys. How? Clothing and posture. I loved how the former was portrayed during Morrison's run on Action, and the latter was wonderfully explained by Quitely in his sketches for All-Star Superman.
    Last edited by 666MasterOfPuppets; 01-10-2017 at 06:16 AM.

  6. #771
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superlad93 View Post
    Interestingly enough, I was fine with AA's depiction simply because it was the very first time Clark had faced anything like that. I also give a pass for it being a younger Superman. The ending also gets points from me. I'm not totally against Superman entering Lex's office unannounced. I just can't stand it when Clark comes off as overly dismissive. I know not everyone is into the idea that Superman sees something in Lex that he doesn't see in himself, but I think it's pretty key.

    I think their relationship eventually evolves to the point where Clark sees that possibility for good, but is frustrated by how Lex rails against it so strongly. I think Clark starts off pretty standard hero vs villain (sort of Tom and Jerry-like in it's tit for tat nature) with Lex, but then as time goes on Clark realizes the true tragedy of Lex.

    Age comes wisdom, so that's why I can't get behind the current older Superman being so dismissive, but I can be okay with a younger Clark being more too the point and forceful. The diffrrence is that one knows and "gets it" while the other is still getting a handle on things.
    It's hard to buy into that idea when we have Lex doing stuff like strangling a woman because she beat him in a sparring match. Superman seeing any good in him just makes him look naive.

  7. #772
    Astonishing Member Francisco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It's hard to buy into that idea when we have Lex doing stuff like strangling a woman because she beat him in a sparring match. Superman seeing any good in him just makes him look naive.
    Elliot S! Maggin's Luthor is stated to have never killed a person (too smart for that) and He helped Clark to defeat Tobey (sp?) at the end of Last Son Of Krypton. That's the only portrayal I think would make that dynamic work.
    "By force of will he turns his gaze upon the seething horror bellow us on the hillside.
    Yes, he feels the icy touch of fear, but he is not cowed. He is Superman!"

  8. #773
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    Lex Luthor shouldn't be such a big part of the Superman story. I like the Michael Rosenbaum/Elliot Maggin interpretation of his character. So he's a guy that was Clark's friend and it breaks Clark's heart to see his friend go bad. But I don't want to see Lex playing super-hero all the time.

    It looks like someone at DC has decided that Luthor should carry his own series. But he's not that interesting. He's not Sinestro, Black Adam, Catwoman, Harley Quinn. And that's okay. However, I've dropped a lot of Superman comics in the last ten years just because I don't want to read Lex Luthor comics.

    The best Luthor was the Lexor version and it's too bad that version was abandoned soon after Edmond Hamilton left on his travels. Even with Lexor there's one aspect I didnt like--Superman's efforts to extraordinary rendition Luthor from Lexor to some space gulag or Earth penitentiary. The Champion of the Oppressed should be sastisfied that Luthor is doing good on Lexor and leave it there. Let his old friend be happy, so long as Lex stays there and leaves his criminal past behind.

    Instead of putting so much creative capital into Lex Luthor, I wish DC would develop other worthy enemies for the Man of Steel.

  9. #774
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 666MasterOfPuppets View Post
    In short: yes, guys. How? Clothing and posture. I loved how the former was portrayed during Morrison's run on Action, and the latter was wonderfully explained by Quitely in his sketches for All-Star Superman.
    Okay, I'll bite: how is clothing going to hide being 7'?

  10. #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Lex Luthor shouldn't be such a big part of the Superman story. I like the Michael Rosenbaum/Elliot Maggin interpretation of his character. So he's a guy that was Clark's friend and it breaks Clark's heart to see his friend go bad. But I don't want to see Lex playing super-hero all the time.

    It looks like someone at DC has decided that Luthor should carry his own series. But he's not that interesting. He's not Sinestro, Black Adam, Catwoman, Harley Quinn. And that's okay. However, I've dropped a lot of Superman comics in the last ten years just because I don't want to read Lex Luthor comics.

    The best Luthor was the Lexor version and it's too bad that version was abandoned soon after Edmond Hamilton left on his travels. Even with Lexor there's one aspect I didnt like--Superman's efforts to extraordinary rendition Luthor from Lexor to some space gulag or Earth penitentiary. The Champion of the Oppressed should be sastisfied that Luthor is doing good on Lexor and leave it there. Let his old friend be happy, so long as Lex stays there and leaves his criminal past behind.

    Instead of putting so much creative capital into Lex Luthor, I wish DC would develop other worthy enemies for the Man of Steel.
    How is Lex being friends with Clark when they were teens not being a big part of the Superman story?

    Also, he hasn't had that much of an appearance in the recent Superman books.

  11. #776
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    How is Lex being friends with Clark when they were teens not being a big part of the Superman story?
    I guess that depends in what part of Superman's history we're talking about, no?

    Probably the single best thing Byrne did for me was take away their shared history in Smallville. I really hate that idea. Might as well rename Smallville to Rural Metropolis if you're going to make it a crossroads of the most exceptional human and metahuman.

  12. #777
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    From an artistic perspective, it's nice to have everything connect. It's like in UNBREAKABLE--I don't know the exact quote and spoilers, but Samuel Jackson's character talks about how the villain and the hero share a common past and are kind of locked together in their destiny. So this is quite sastisfying with Lex Luthor and Clark Kent. I find I don't need that with the Joker and Batman, however. Harvey Dent and Bruce Wayne, maybe.

    But Batman has lots of villains and links with many of them in his past. That doesn't make one villain the king of all villains. And it's better that way--because when one villain is given too much story--like Joker--then it gets to be too much.

    Clark has a shared past with lots of other characters--Lana Lang, Pete Ross, Kenny Braverman, Carl Draper, Lori Lemaris, the Legion of Super-Heroes. Let's have more stories about them.

    It gets to be too much if Lex Luthor is the most important character next to Clark and Lois in the Superman comics--as if it's not possible to think of any other villain who could legitmately challenge Superman. The desire to save Lex serves as a nice element in illustrating Clark's character--his need to save everyone. But there's no point in telling that same story with Lex over and over again. Message received, now move on to other things.

  13. #778
    Legendary Member daBronzeBomma's Avatar
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    Since we were talking about him anyway ..

    Controversial opinion about Lex Luthor:

    Lex Luthor, not Bruce Wayne, is the most cunning and dangerous man on Earth. And needs to be treated as such.

    Lex should be a whole lot smarter and a whole lot richer than Bruce Wayne. Lexcorp should be able to buy out Wayne Enterprises 10 times over.

    Lex, always aggressively and often unethically, pursues power through influence, and influence through wealth, and wealth through innovation, and innovation through inspiration.

    And Lex is never not inspired.

    All the current qualities of the Batgod that make Superman fans annoyed as hell? Take them from Bruce and give them to Lex. Lex is the one who figures the Leaguers could turn against humanity and arranges contingency plans for all of them. Lex figures out Batman is Bruce Wayne on his lunch hour after thinking about it for 20 minutes.

    Lex has only one weakness: he is always at high risk to lose his composure only around Superman. Supes is the only one who can make the otherwise unflappable Lex lose his shit.

    Luthor should dress in all-white, like he did in those SMALLVILLE flash-forwards or in the 2007 DOOMSDAY animated movie.

  14. #779
    Extraordinary Member Vanguard-01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by daBronzeBomma View Post
    Since we were talking about him anyway ..

    Controversial opinion about Lex Luthor:

    Lex Luthor, not Bruce Wayne, is the most cunning and dangerous man on Earth. And needs to be treated as such.

    Lex should be a whole lot smarter and a whole lot richer than Bruce Wayne. Lexcorp should be able to buy out Wayne Enterprises 10 times over.

    Lex, always aggressively and often unethically, pursues power through influence, and influence through wealth, and wealth through innovation, and innovation through inspiration.

    And Lex is never not inspired.

    All the current qualities of the Batgod that make Superman fans annoyed as hell? Take them from Bruce and give them to Lex. Lex is the one who figures the Leaguers could turn against humanity and arranges contingency plans for all of them. Lex figures out Batman is Bruce Wayne on his lunch hour after thinking about it for 20 minutes.

    Lex has only one weakness: he is always at high risk to lose his composure only around Superman. Supes is the only one who can make the otherwise unflappable Lex lose his shit.

    Luthor should dress in all-white, like he did in those SMALLVILLE flash-forwards or in the 2007 DOOMSDAY animated movie.
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  15. #780
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    Ah...let me add another Lex opinion...

    The back story of Lex from SMALLVILLE is vastly superior to nearly every other version of his history,and should be official canon.Not every single nuance,mind you,but the general idea of Lex,son of Lionel Luthor ( who is basically Byrne's Lex Luthor albeit with hair) and heir to the Luthor dynasty, being rescued from certain death by a young Clark Kent,becoming friends before the darkness in his soul slowly drives a wedge between them. The Lex on that show and his arc is so layered and is the perfect marriage of Elliot Maggin's tragic figure of the Bronze Age and the evil robber baron of the Post Crisis era. To me it's the only Lex that works as the main nemesis of Superman as well as a supporting cast member.

    Thusly,id retcon all the Post Crisis Byrne Lex stories as being Lionel,complete with the origin,his connection to Perry, the Jerry White stuff etc.
    When it comes to comics,one person's "fan-service" is another persons personal cannon. So by definition it's ALL fan service. Aren't we ALL fans?
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