Controversial Superman Opinions

[Superlad93]

Let's let one villain be a villain.

I think he's a villain, bad guy, and overall d!ck, but I just don't think he's this pure evil kick a puppy guy. That sounds really boring to me no matter how cool and calculated you make him.

I like him better when he's just bad aspects of being human taken form.

I also don't think Superman wrings his hands over Lex, but I fully believe he feels sorry for him regardless of if they were friends before or not. Lex is the smartest man on the planet and he regularly creates miracles; I think Clark is gonna feel a bit frustrated that this guy isn't doing better with what he's been given. I don't think Clark lectures Lex or anything like that (they're beyond that point), but I do think that inside Clark quietly hopes that Lex will turns things around one day, but he's not holding his breath. This is why All Star still very much works for me. That final punch to Lex is Clark shaking his head at the wasted potential.

But before that endpoint, I think don't think Clark should yoke Lex up at the drop of a hat. That just seems unstable. What's that show of force get him anyway, huh? If Clark wanted Lex dead or hurt, he, Lex, and the world world know that it would've been done by now. I'm totally fine with Superman being disgusted, mad, or depressed by what Lex has done, but the idea that nearly every time they meet Superman puts his hands on Lex seems dumb. It just feels like a set up for Clark to get a pie in the face, because we all know he ain't bout sh!t when he does that.

[Flash Gordon]

Eh. For all the "Superman needs a backbone" complaints, being delicate or compassionate with Lex tops my list. Sure it fits the context of them being friends previously, but if they weren't I don't like it. I'm not often crazy about Lex as a character and usually find him boring compared to Brainiac. "He looks right when things aren't in context" isn't a personality, it's a story beat to justify his space on the page. But I dig straight evil renditions: Alexei and Post Crisis... who died to me when he gave away Lena. Unlike Alexei that betrayed his character (and then Superman gave her back? lame).

I like, sometimes love, Lex in general as a ruthless genius who utterly despises compromise and who is a cool manipulator until he's faced with any disrespect, where he loses his mind. All-Star, Superman #15, Coming of the Supermen, and Villains Month showed this best as far as recent comics go. This guy could do great things but won't, and Superman is better than wringing his hands "if only." The rehabilitation thing was always for the other Clark (Doc Savage) and although plenty of good stories deal with a possible turn around, I'd hate to see it go any further since anti heroes and tragic villains are dreadfully played out. Let's let one villain be a villain.

I think Lex is a tragic villian, a super tragic villian. Being tragic and eliciting sympathy from the reader doesn't mean he isn't a downright megalomaniac and a warped man. Lex doesn't want to just blow up the world, and that makes him interesting as an arch enemy. He does some good, if somewhat inadvertently (though I don't think he does nearly as much as he believes he does). He's an elitist, he doesn't really care about people.

I dig that once Clark and Lex found themselves at similar places in life, and befriended each other. Maybe even saw similarities in one another. It also shows that Clark chose the path of the hero. Clark could have been anyone, and he chose to champion those who are oppressed.

[Superlad93]

He just need 3 little orphan girls knocking at his door..

Ha!

But seriously, despite my final comment in that post, I mean what I say. I think he works best as that guy, and Superman works best as his opposite. Clark's not especially "more good" than anyone else on the street. It's just that he decides that it makes more sense--and it's more productive-- to not be an a$$. He's a good guy that's literally doing everything he's able to do to make life better for the people around him, and because he's Superman that scope is pretty dang wide.

I always like to remember the fact that Superman doesn't actually have powers not native to his species. He just has a really favorable circumstance. Like it or not, he's just a guy doing his part.....on a very big scale. This is why I think him inspiring the Legion is LITERALLY the best. Most of the members are just aliens using their natural abilities to form what is basically a galaxy wide neighborhood watch. I think that's such a special idea, and I love remembering that Superman is sort of just a (really awesome) guy in a suit looking out for his universe wide neighbors.

That's why I think it always comes down to the two sides of being a person. Lex is you when you suck, and Clark is you when you're awesome. Lets all try an be awesome as often as we can

[Kuwagaton]

that sounds really boring to me no matter how cool and calculated you make him.

Straight evil sounds boring, but to me it's a reversal that holds up well. Superman is good and not "kinda" good, and that doesn't bore me or many other people. Even when he's outside the window being a deadbeat dad, he still isn't "kinda" in regards to good or evil. I'm not a star wars fan at all, but I like that Vader can stand as a "bad guy" that fans enjoy and though it's more about execution than concept, exploring his "goodness" was a disaster.

I like him better when he's just bad aspects of being human taken form.

That sentence is the best probably ever applied to the character, that "we're all Lex for five minutes. " though maybe it's the strongest indicator of the gap in modern stories: we don't have ANY stories about humans/ unpowered people groups. It's weird to me that aside from Adventures, we have all these stories that ignore the idea of a complex regular society. Why not have one title for that stuff and wacky space battles in the other?

That final punch to Lex is Clark shaking his head at the wasted potential.

But before that endpoint, I think don't think Clark should yoke Lex up at the drop of a hat. That just seems unstable. What's that show of force get him anyway, huh? If Clark wanted Lex dead or hurt, he, Lex, and the world world know that it would've been done by now. I'm totally fine with Superman being disgusted, mad, or depressed by what Lex has done, but the idea that nearly every time they meet Superman puts his hands on Lex seems dumb. It just feels like a set up for Clark to get a pie in the face, because we all know he ain't bout sh!t when he does that.

I read that frustration as being in every "punch" ever thrown. Like Clark's wife beating neighbor, Lex is potentially more than a scumbag... but he's definitely a scumbag, too.

As for yoking up, that never goes well whether it's Lex or someone else. I'd rather it was just Lex, because showing that side of Superman, in his humanity, is a far greater victory than any inevitability foiled plot.

[Superlad93]

Straight evil sounds boring, but to me it's a reversal that holds up well. Superman is good and not "kinda" good, and that doesn't bore me or many other people. Even when he's outside the window being a deadbeat dad, he still isn't "kinda" in regards to good or evil. I'm not a star wars fan at all, but I like that Vader can stand as a "bad guy" that fans enjoy and though it's more about execution than concept, exploring his "goodness" was a disaster.

Well I think it depends on what awful things you feel a normal person is capable of, and capable of justifying. I personally think the scope is wide and that makes Lex scary because you can relate in some way.

That sentence is the best probably ever applied to the character, that "we're all Lex for five minutes. " though maybe it's the strongest indicator of the gap in modern stories: we don't have ANY stories about humans/ unpowered people groups. It's weird to me that aside from Adventures, we have all these stories that ignore the idea of a complex regular society. Why not have one title for that stuff and wacky space battles in the other?

I wouldn't mind this at all. I'd love it even more if Superman where a big part of it. I think you need that normal side context to make the crazy fun feel more crazy and fun. I'd love a Clark Kent book or mini where it's all the in between stuff, and Superman is almost treated as a whole other entity. I think the Superman world is in great need of this normalcy starting point. It would also help flesh out the not so Super aspects of the city.

As for yoking up, that never goes well whether it's Lex or someone else. I'd rather it was just Lex, because showing that side of Superman, in his humanity, is a far greater victory than any inevitability foiled plot.

I get what you're trying to say but getting Superman to be a little mad is never actually Lex goal. It reads almost like slap stick sometimes as you wait for Lex to tell Superman to sit his bluffin a$$ down and talk to him like an adult. I'm cool with it sometimes, but the idea that Clark becomes this irrational "you know he's dirty" cop soundin guy every time Lex is in the room just makes me mad.

[Sacred Knight]

In recent times DC has branced out on diversity with the creation of two black Supermen, Val-Zod and President Supermen. One is boring as hell and one is just okay. Maybe focus more on the best black Superman you've already created: John Henry Irons.

[Kuwagaton]

Lex doesn't want to just blow up the world, and that makes him interesting as an arch enemy. He does some good, if somewhat inadvertently (though I don't think he does nearly as much as he believes he does).

I think the misconception is "evil = simple." Lex as a really bad person doesn't mean that he can't exist in society as really evil people might use society rather than isolate themselves. It also means that he can care for things beyond himself, in the way that a really good person is not immune to being selfish. In Soul Search to Krisis, my favorite Luthor moments, he was legit sad about Jerry White. It's just that instead of being really bad because he was born poor or something else, he understands and embraces what it means to put himself above others at a great cost. There's no real "because" but he wouldn't have to be the Joker.

Well I think it depends on what awful things you feel a normal person is capable of, and capable of justifying. I personally think the scope is wide and that makes Lex scary because you can relate in some way.

It all starts somewhere normal but I'd say that Lex has his own track because at some point he just isn't normal. Like Superman isn't normal. To me Lex is a better Bizarro than Bizarro simply by way of, "what if alien was human and good was bad?" Superman could come face to face with Toyman gloating about slicing Adam every day like Groundhog's Day and we can see him never killing out of anger. Better yet we have a real example: In Action 761 where he goes side by side with Wonder Woman into an eternal viking battle and never breaks his vow to Lois. Even without the context of his huge crush on WW during the Byrne run, the point is clear about his character.

Lex, let's say he starts with lust, which is normal. While Clark was innocently unaware of Lana's deeper feelings, Lex was shut off in his tower watching playback of Lois getting frisked. While Clark came to terms with his attraction to Diana, the same comic had Lex command an assistant to wiggle her butt in Maggie's face. Lex decides not to fight lust and instead put it on the payroll, and at some point he's abnormal.

I wouldn't mind this at all. I'd love it even more if Superman where a big part of it. I think you need that normal side context to make the crazy fun feel more crazy and fun. I'd love a Clark Kent book or mini where it's all the in between stuff, and Superman is almost treated as a whole other entity. I think the Superman world is in great need of this normalcy starting point. It would also help flesh out the not so Super aspects of the city.

Oh yeah, I definitely think Superman has to exist in a book about Clark. Not just exist, but show up. I'm surprised this wasn't given a real go when Gotham Central was hot, though there was probably some mini that came and went.

I get what you're trying to say but getting Superman to be a little mad is never actually Lex goal. It reads almost like slap stick sometimes as you wait for Lex to tell Superman to sit his bluffin a$$ down and talk to him like an adult. I'm cool with it sometimes, but the idea that Clark becomes this irrational "you know he's dirty" cop soundin guy every time Lex is in the room just makes me mad.

I can live without it but hope no one ever writes Superman as going, "nah I'll get slapped away."

[Agent Z]

I've never been sure about Lex killing people. Even if Lex does, I'd imagine Clark wants him to pay his debt to society in the only meaningful way he can: with his mind.

Yeah that's not how that works

[Adekis]

The real problem with Luthor is that in the last almost-eighty years there has been, for the most part, one version of Superman who changes a bit here and there but mostly keeps the same basic motivation and aesthetic. By contrast, every individual version of Luthor might as well be a whole different person, with the unifying traits being that they're mostly evil, mostly brilliant scientists and mostly bald, and not even all of him fits those categories. On top of that, though Luthor's got tons of fans, lots of them disagree on what the best stuff about him is. Frankly, that's a problem with our boy Superman himself too, but whether you think the farm-boy angle is overdone or you never want him to call himself "Kal-El" again, at least we can all agree that he's a good-hearted man who uses his powers to save people and wears glasses to work as a reporter in his time off. Luthor doesn't have that degree of consistency.

I'd say to make Lex's different aspects into different characters for real, but the problem with that is that then we start getting into arguments over which personality gets to keep the name "Lex Luthor" and who's got to be "Big Bill Bowers" or "Glen Glenmorgan" or "Ultra-Humanite" or "the Yellow Mask". So obviously, instead we all keep fighting over what Luthor's like or how Luthor should be when we might as well be talking about eight different characters with next to nothing in common besides being bald villains.

[Jon Clark]

Superman really needs to show off more. For a guy who is supposedly one of the most powerful heroes on Earth, he sure seems to hide that light under a bushel.

Imagine Superman taking a leisurely afternoon and cleaning up the lower rungs of villains. Ten seconds to defeat the Ten-Eyed Man. A panel de-shelling the Turtle. Easily pulling the wings off Killer Moth. Beating the Royal Flush Gang. Putting out Dr Light's lights.

[JamesC]

Superman really needs to show off more. For a guy who is supposedly one of the most powerful heroes on Earth, he sure seems to hide that light under a bushel.

Imagine Superman taking a leisurely afternoon and cleaning up the lower rungs of villains. Ten seconds to defeat the Ten-Eyed Man. A panel de-shelling the Turtle. Easily pulling the wings off Killer Moth. Beating the Royal Flush Gang. Putting out Dr Light's lights.

While it would be fun to see I'm not sue I agree. It feels a bit like using a sledgehammer to crack a walnut.
Superman showing off and defeating normal humans easily sounds a bit like an intimidation tactic.

[Agniwolf]

The real problem with Luthor is that in the last almost-eighty years there has been, for the most part, one version of Superman who changes a bit here and there but mostly keeps the same basic motivation and aesthetic. By contrast, every individual version of Luthor might as well be a whole different person, with the unifying traits being that they're mostly evil, mostly brilliant scientists and mostly bald, and not even all of him fits those categories. On top of that, though Luthor's got tons of fans, lots of them disagree on what the best stuff about him is. Frankly, that's a problem with our boy Superman himself too, but whether you think the farm-boy angle is overdone or you never want him to call himself "Kal-El" again, at least we can all agree that he's a good-hearted man who uses his powers to save people and wears glasses to work as a reporter in his time off. Luthor doesn't have that degree of consistency.

I'd say to make Lex's different aspects into different characters for real, but the problem with that is that then we start getting into arguments over which personality gets to keep the name "Lex Luthor" and who's got to be "Big Bill Bowers" or "Glen Glenmorgan" or "Ultra-Humanite" or "the Yellow Mask". So obviously, instead we all keep fighting over what Luthor's like or how Luthor should be when we might as well be talking about eight different characters with next to nothing in common besides being bald villains.

truth is, for me, those changes made Luthor much more of a man of tomorrow than than superman that gets stagnated just to keep him "iconic"

i really like superman, but unfortunately he became the man of yesterday were as Luthor was reinvented at many opportunities to become the man of tomorrow

[Jim Kelly]

Superman, Batman and Robin used to put on spectacular performances for the crowds in Metropolis and Gotham City. I think they helped to raise money for charitable causes. But I'd guess they were being crafty, too.

One might think it corny, but what better way for Superman to calm fears and gain acceptance from the people of Earth. As an exercise in diplomacy, such spectacles would have brought the people onto Superman's side against his critics. And also, by showing the astounding things they could do, Superman, Batman and Robin demonstrated to the criminal element that their efforts woud be wasted, they could never win. The World's Finest Trio were just too good to ever be defeated. Thus a lot of crimes were averted and many innocent lives saved, simply by putting on a good show.

[Agent Z]

Eh. For all the "Superman needs a backbone" complaints, being delicate or compassionate with Lex tops my list. Sure it fits the context of them being friends previously, but if they weren't I don't like it. I'm not often crazy about Lex as a character and usually find him boring compared to Brainiac. "He looks right when things aren't in context" isn't a personality, it's a story beat to justify his space on the page. But I dig straight evil renditions: Alexei and Post Crisis... who died to me when he gave away Lena. Unlike Alexei that betrayed his character (and then Superman gave her back? lame).

I like, sometimes love, Lex in general as a ruthless genius who utterly despises compromise and who is a cool manipulator until he's faced with any disrespect, where he loses his mind. All-Star, Superman #15, Coming of the Supermen, and Villains Month showed this best as far as recent comics go. This guy could do great things but won't, and Superman is better than wringing his hands "if only." The rehabilitation thing was always for the other Clark (Doc Savage) and although plenty of good stories deal with a possible turn around, I'd hate to see it go any further since anti heroes and tragic villains are dreadfully played out. Let's let one villain be a villain.

There are plenty of outright evil villains in fiction. The tragic ones just stand out more so that's why they're remembered.

[Ascended]

In recent times DC has branced out on diversity with the creation of two black Supermen, Val-Zod and President Supermen. One is boring as hell and one is just okay. Maybe focus more on the best black Superman you've already created: John Henry Irons.

Hell yeah! John Henry is one of the best additions to the mythos we've ever had and he needs more love.

As for Lex, this is an interesting discussion. For myself, I dont mind the idea of Lex and Clark knowing each other as kids; it adds a lot to their dynamic and Smallville really made that work, but if that's the case then Lex has to know who Superman is as an adult. I can mostly believe that Lois doesnt figure it out immediately; like the rest of the world she's blinded by Clark Kent's unassuming, frumpy manner and Superman's bigger than life demigod-like profile (she'd get over it fairly quick and work it all out if Clark doesn't tell her first though). But Lex is the world's smartest man and if he knew Clark as kids he'd take one look at Superman and recognize him.

I also think you have to write Lex as the dark mirror of humanity. Superman is us when we're at our best. He's got a surprising level of complexity and nuance and depth to him that belie the idea of a grown man in a cape flying around town saving cats from trees. How then can we handle Lex as a two-dimensional, mustache twirling villain who ties women to train tracks for no apparent purpose? Lex deserves as much depth and nuance as Clark, and I think if you fail to deliver that and turn him into a "evil for evil's sake!" villain then you do Superman himself a disservice by underplaying his archnemesis.

One of the things I find interesting about Lex is that he's really far less human than Clark. He's a sociopath who lacks a lot of human emotion. He's driven by ego and ambition alone. He'll push you out of a helicopter, or frame you as a terrorist, or sleep with your wife, foreclose your home, and arrange a car accident for your parents and/or kids just as if he's ordering lunch. There's no human emotion there, no sense of achievement, glee, or even remorse that you forced him to it. He won't even enjoy sleeping with your wife. He's just using the resources at his disposal, and he won't cry over a lost/ruined life any more than you or I would cry over throwing away a hammer that finally broke or a cast that had to be busted to make a mold.

And I think its important that you highlight the damage he's done. One of the dangers with Lex is making him too successful (as well as too sympathetic). For example, when Lex was President the American economy did well, the American people did well, and Lex brokered deals with other nations that lead to some profitable trade agreements. Lex wanted to be, and largely was, a good POTUS because his ego wouldn't allow him to sit in office over an America that wasn't successful. I'll be honest, I would've voted for the guy even knowing that he's a piece of sh*t. Aren't most politicians, after all? So if you want Lex to stay a straight-up villain you have to play up that 1% elitist angle and really drive home how badly he screws over the average person. Show the endless line of unemployed people because Lex decided to automate all of LexCorps' holdings. Show the increased gang violence in the slums around the city because Lex is allowing experimental weaponry and new tailor-made drugs onto the streets. Show all the small businesses that got bought out and shut down, leaving their owners destitute. Show the families that are broken because of Lex.

As for killing....I dont think Lex murders needlessly because that would be a waste of resources. But if he thinks it will further his goals he'll kill you without a second thought. He likely wont do it himself. He's a busy guy and killing a person? He's got people for that the same way I have people who do my taxes for me. But he'll get hands-on now and then, sometimes just to remind his employees that he can (in the same manner a restaurant owner will occasionally cook a plate to remind his cooks that he knows how the job gets done) I dont think he worries about getting caught. He's the world's smartest man and he should be beyond such "normal" concerns. Even if the police weren't in his pocket, Lex is too smart to leave any evidence behind. He's legally invulnerable, he knows it, and he uses it. He's not a "crimes of passion" guy. That would require Lex have passion. Leave that noise to the Kingpin; Lex is meticulous and goal-oriented when he kills someone. The only exception to that is Superman, who Lex envies and hates. Lex would kill Superman in a second if he could, but he's learned that killing Superman is not only (essentially) impossible, but it would also turn him into a martyr. Lex is fighting Superman for the future of humanity's soul, and a world mourning Superman, with people wearing t-shirts saying "Superman was Right" will defeat Lex's humans-first agenda. So Superman has to be a irritant Lex lives with until a day comes along where Lex can make the alien of steel quietly disappear.