Controversial Superman Opinions

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

If critics were praising shit, should I do too ? All-Star isn't for me, I can't read beyond the first issue, because I like neither the design of Superman, nor his character (and those of the other characters around him). And the same goes for his supporting cast, that I find incredibly bland and boring in what i read of All-Star. And the atrocious costume doesn't help. At all.

Except I've read it myself. Its really not "sh*t." And the art's one of the best parts of that book. Either way, its better than this look, which looks like the 90s threw up on him:

So far, he wasn't treated as the exact Pre-Flashpoint, mainly because he wasn't, yet, the centre of everything. New 52 Superman influence is (was ?) major in the first issues of Rebirth and even right now.

Superman wasn't the center of everything before the New 52. He was like Captain America, a symbol of hope and heroism that people looked up to. That's something that was sorely missing with the New 52.

The "iconic", insufferable, boring and without savour immortal Sun God, overpowered who'se apparently human because he bang a journalist who, for years wasn't even able to see that Clark Kent was Superman while interacting with him for this long.

Not immortal, hence the whole "death" thing. Not overpowered (read any story where he gets beat to crap by villains more powerful than him). His humanity comes from him being raised by humans, on Earth. And, this is comics. Peter Parker had exclusive access to pictures of Spider-Man for decades and people didn't put it together that he himself was Spider-Man.

Oh well. I'll return to Batline only soon enough, I just hope that the Rebirth storyline won't impact too much on those books.

Check out the preview for this week's issue of Batman?

[Korath]

I did check out the preview, it bothered e, but not as much as Superman's and Wonder Woman's Rebirth storylines. The again, if they replace Zero Year for Year One, I'll drop it too.

Also, concerning All-Star... I hate the art. That's personal, but I find it even worse than this atrocious picture you posted of New 52 Superman. And I liked neither the premise nor the characterization of what I saw in the first issue. Again, it's purely personal, but I don't like the Pre-Flashpoint Superman, he doesn't talk to me and I fail to see what is interesting with him or his cast of enemies.

[Jim Kelly]

Not arguing that either. I mean, whatever form the Superman suit takes, in a potential Kamandi future it would be in that exact same place and have that same importance.

Yes. Taking a cue from The World's comment, the way the costume gains acceptance and iconic status is through these associations both in fiction and in real world circumstancs. I'd bet that if the Jim Lee design had enough built up associations, it would gain a greater respect because people would then invest it with all these other meanings. But it needed a much longer time-frame to gain those stories and those popular resonances. So we'll never know.

There's lots about Superman's traditional costume that has built up associations for a lot of people. Jim Croce was singing "You Don't Mess Around With Jim" before Christopher Reeve wore the super-suit. People seemed to spontaneously find new meaning in Five For Fighting's "Superman (It's Not Easy)" immediately after 9/11, lending importance to a "funny red sheet" and the red S on their T-shirts.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

I did check out the preview, it bothered e, but not as much as Superman's and Wonder Woman's Rebirth storylines. The again, if they replace Zero Year for Year One, I'll drop it too.

Well, different strokes for different folks, I guess. For me, reinstating Year One as the origin (which I'm hoping Batman #15 signifies) would actually make me feel comfortable reading Batman comics again.

Also, concerning All-Star... I hate the art. That's personal, but I find it even worse than this atrocious picture you posted of New 52 Superman. And I liked neither the premise nor the characterization of what I saw in the first issue. Again, it's purely personal, but I don't like the Pre-Flashpoint Superman, he doesn't talk to me and I fail to see what is interesting with him or his cast of enemies.

You don't have to like him. His fans like him. But don't be too derisive at the direction that Rebirth Superman is taking. If DC felt that it was profitable or a good choice to stick with Nuperman, then they would have. If people were reading Nuperman or even just attached to him, then DC wouldn't have needed to do Rebirth in the first place.

Also, on the unbelievability of Lois never having known Clark was Superman before he told her. Uh....isn't that also the case for Nuperman and NuLois?

[DochaDocha]

You don't have to like him. His fans like him. But don't be too derisive at the direction that Rebirth Superman is taking. If DC felt that it was profitable or a good choice to stick with Nuperman, then they would have. If people were reading Nuperman or even just attached to him, then DC wouldn't have needed to do Rebirth in the first place.

One caveat I'd add is that if the internet and all its charming glory were around in the mid-1980's, Post-Crisis Superman might not've made it past year five, either.

FWIW, I never really thought there was a huge difference between Pre-FP Superman and Nu52 dude minus the costume and girlfriend.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

One caveat I'd add is that if the internet and all its charming glory were around in the mid-1980's, Post-Crisis Superman might not've made it past year five, either.

Except later on in the Post-Crisis Universe, DC recanonized a lot of continuity from Pre-Crisis anyway. For example, Superman was remade into a founding member of the JLA, alongside Batman and Wonder Woman. I mean, Superman currently even has Silver Age memories alongside his Post-Crisis memories. So, I think its safe to say that there is no longer any difference between Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis Superman. In fact, I don't think there has been since 2006 or so.

FWIW, I never really thought there was a huge difference between Pre-FP Superman and Nu52 dude minus the costume and girlfriend.

The decades worth of stories?

[DochaDocha]

Except later on in the Post-Crisis Universe, DC recanonized a lot of continuity from Pre-Crisis anyway. For example, Superman was remade into a founding member of the JLA, alongside Batman and Wonder Woman. I mean, Superman currently even has Silver Age memories alongside his Post-Crisis memories. So, I think its safe to say that there is no difference between Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis Superman. In fact, I don't think there has been since 2006 or so.

It eventually became that way, but Byrne's Superman wasn't universally embraced. You might not have gotten to the recanonization in the first place if DC could get such direct feedback back then that it can nowadays.

The decades worth of stories?

Obviously their histories are different, but normalize their dating lives and costumes, and it's not like it was clearly two different characters, at least IMO. When I was reading George Perez's run in early New 52, I didn't feel any sort of cataclysmic changes to the character. I'd say Perez's New 52 Superman felt more Pre-FP than, say, Azzarello's "For Tomorrow." A character's personality is more closely tied to the writer than anything else, and I don't think most Superman writers did anything monumentally drastic to change the character's general personality.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

It eventually became that way, but Byrne's Superman wasn't universally embraced. You might not have gotten to the recanonization in the first place if DC could get such direct feedback back then that it can nowadays.

I guess, but on that note, maybe its a good thing we have it now. Maybe if they had had it back then, we could have avoided the continuity complications caused by Crisis that were only mitigated by the recanonizations.

Obviously their histories are different

That was the whole point, though. Its not so much about his personality. Its about the way he related to the universe around him because everything historic and important he'd ever done (defining who he was in the DCU) was taken out of continuity.

[The World]

Except later on in the Post-Crisis Universe, DC recanonized a lot of continuity from Pre-Crisis anyway. For example, Superman was remade into a founding member of the JLA, alongside Batman and Wonder Woman. I mean, Superman currently even has Silver Age memories alongside his Post-Crisis memories. So, I think its safe to say that there is no longer any difference between Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis Superman. In fact, I don't think there has been since 2006 or so.

lmao @ thinking Pre-Crisis Superman would have let Bruce talk to him the way Clark did in Infinite Crisis. Would have put Bruce in his place and booted his ass out the door.

[Sacred Knight]

Any version of Superman other than the aughts version of Superman probably would have hit Bruce hard enough to at least jar a few teeth loose. The Superman of that era though you could more see flying home to mom and dad to cry about it.

[DochaDocha]

That was the whole point, though. Its not so much about his personality. Its about the way he related to the universe around him because everything historic and important he'd ever done (defining who he was in the DCU) was taken out of continuity.

To which I would respond how often do stories really analyze how he relates to the universe around him? Because in my estimation, most of the time is hero meets villain.

Now, you could argue that even if said analysis is a small amount, even a small change in that department matters a lot.

Anyway, I support occasional, once-a-generation reboots. Fiction gets archived, and while it kind of sucks that old, favorite canon stories are relegated to the past, I noticed my enjoyment of Elseworld type tales, or concurrently running stories in other media, indicated to me that I don't need every single story to be canonically connected with one another. Sometimes I like various interpretations of the same events.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

To which I would respond how often do stories really analyze how he relates to the universe around him? Because in my estimation, most of the time is hero meets villain.

I'd say that stories like the Death and Return Saga, Our Worlds at War, Public Enemies, Infinite Crisis, Brainiac, New Krypton, Last Son, etc. all did their part to define Superman in the context of the DC Universe to the point where I think without those stories or stories like them, its not the real Superman.

Anyway, I support occasional, once-a-generation reboots. Fiction gets archived, and while it kind of sucks that old, favorite canon stories are relegated to the past, I noticed my enjoyment of Elseworld type tales, or concurrently running stories in other media, indicated to me that I don't need every single story to be canonically connected with one another. Sometimes I like various interpretations of the same events.

Yeah...can't say I support that. One of the things that makes superhero comics so grandiose and awe-worthy is that its one long continuous story spanning decades. Part of the reason Marvel traditionally does better than DC is actually because they have one continuous and stable timeline.

Movies and TV shows are clear about being an entirely separate take on the characters. They don't purport to be the main DC Universe version of the characters.

[DochaDocha]

I'd say that stories like the Death and Return Saga, Our Worlds at War, Public Enemies, Infinite Crisis, Brainiac, New Krypton, Last Son, etc. all did their part to define Superman in the context of the DC Universe to the point where I think without those stories or stories like them, its not the real Superman.

Fair enough.

Yeah...can't say I support that. One of the things that makes superhero comics so grandiose and awe-worthy is that its one long continuous story spanning decades. Part of the reason Marvel traditionally does better than DC is actually because they have one continuous and stable timeline.

Movies and TV shows are clear about being an entirely separate take on the characters. They don't purport to be the main DC Universe version of the characters.

It's one timeline, sure. Stable? I guess if Bart Simpson can be in the fifth grade for the better part of three decades, sure. It helps when you don't have to let your characters age, and death is more of a temporary inconvenience.

I think history is a double-edged sword, and becomes pretty burdensome in certain cases.

Just out of curiosity, you don't agree with the decision to reboot with Crisis on Infinite Earths? What about Golden Age/Silver Age Superman? No judgment on my part...

[Kuwagaton]

One caveat I'd add is that if the internet and all its charming glory were around in the mid-1980's, Post-Crisis Superman might not've made it past year five, either.

No era would be immune to bad mouthing on the internet. Not a single one, if teens or adults are involved. The difference with Byrne would be that by all accounts his run had fantastic sales.

lmao @ thinking Pre-Crisis Superman would have let Bruce talk to him the way Clark did in Infinite Crisis. Would have put Bruce in his place and booted his ass out the door.

Any version of Superman other than the aughts version of Superman probably would have hit Bruce hard enough to at least jar a few teeth loose. The Superman of that era though you could more see flying home to mom and dad to cry about it.

I'm gonna go ahead and guess you're both talking about that clumsy burn in Infinite crisis. And I'll then have to disagree that any main Superman would bust a normal guy for talking mean at him. Maybe a Marvel pastiche.

As for comparison,



About as good.

[Sacred Knight]

You're right. I am engaging in hyperbole here, admittedly. But he certainly wouldn't have just looked forlorn about the insult and just left it at that. He would have had some words, he would have challenged it. Its that that's so pathetic about the scene. All that stuff above is good stuff. Maybe it was just the writer. I forgot who wrote that scene though.