Controversial Superman Opinions

[Adekis]

I haven't watched many of the Fleischer cartoons, I have to rectify that. None of the Legion of Super-Heroes. Is he Superman or Superman-X(?) in that show?

Yes, the Superman in the JL 'War', 'Throne of Atlantis' and 'JLvsTT' trilogy is also very good.

After I wrote this post, I thought to myself that maybe I should take my own advice and try to watch a few more of the STAS episodes. I only know that at the time of their airing it was complete rejection by me. As time has passed maybe I'll be able to watch them now.

The Fleischer cartoons are great little action set-pieces. Don't expect great characterization or anything out of them, it's all about the spectacle of a modern Hercules fighting various things. Mad scientists, robot thieves, bullet-car-driving thieves, Godzilla, uncomfortable racial caricatures (yeaaaah, not great), giant mummies, bird-men-- it's all about the action and the occasional joy of seeing Bud Collyer's Superman voice come out of Superman's mouth instead of just hearing it on the radio.

In Legion Superman and Superman X are two separate characters who co-exist. In season one a young Clark Kent on the verge of moving to Metropolis comes to the 31st century, and in season two an older, more experienced Kal-El joins the older, more experienced Legion in fighting Imperiex, a 41st century threat. Superman X is a 41st century clone of Superman who's DNA has been infused with Kryptonite to make him immune to it, and he also joins the Legion, taking the Kryptonian name Kell-El. Kell is an ice-cold anti-hero who thaws out over the course of the season, but even though the emphasis is on him more than any other season 2 character (except maybe Brainiac Five), Clark still gets a decent amount of attention.

Man, the JL War Superman is so underrated though. He's just good at being Superman! He defeats a brainwashed Flash and Wonder Woman with minimal injuries! He applauds Robin for stabbing him with Kryptonite! He takes less than a second to get Luthor's power armor off him! By contrast, the Warverse Luthor is dreadful... I wish I could see the Young Justice Luthor face off against the War Superman in a season arc, that'd be sublime.

The STAS Superman is problematic in the sense that he's clearly got the proportionate strength of a spider in most episodes and has an obnoxious tendency to get hit by a laser and keel over, but his characterization is really quite good. His powers are just off, that's all.

[dumbduck]

@Superlad93 & DochaDocha

Basically, this:

I nominate Bruce Timm's God's and Monsters. Ironically, this was supposed to be a Superman who's not really Superman, but in certain ways it's the Superman Bruce Timm should've been doing starting in 1996. Obviously, I don't mean the #ManOfMurder stuff, but there's a certain confident defiance and sharp wit to the guy that seemed lacking for much of the DCAU. If those aspects (and not the murder-y stuff) were encapsulated in STAS, there would be fewer complaints about how "boring" animated Supes was. I just really enjoyed that one part in the movie when Non-Batman Batman starts reading off all the forensic findings, and then Superman scoffs once he realizes that the Justice League was being framed. Why do I like it?

1) He's sharp. He figures out what's going on instantly once presented with evidence.

EDIT: If this were standard DCAU, Superman would've needed Batman to spell it out for him. This Superman just needed to hear a few facts and put the pieces together himself.

2) The indignation toward whoever was trying to frame the Justice League.
3) His confidence that the frame job would ultimately fail.

The Fleischer cartoons are great little action set-pieces. Don't expect great characterization or anything out of them, it's all about the spectacle of a modern Hercules fighting various things. Mad scientists, robot thieves, bullet-car-driving thieves, Godzilla, uncomfortable racial caricatures (yeaaaah, not great), giant mummies, bird-men-- it's all about the action and the occasional joy of seeing Bud Collyer's Superman voice come out of Superman's mouth instead of just hearing it on the radio.

In Legion Superman and Superman X are two separate characters who co-exist. In season one a young Clark Kent on the verge of moving to Metropolis comes to the 31st century, and in season two an older, more experienced Kal-El joins the older, more experienced Legion in fighting Imperiex, a 41st century threat. Superman X is a 41st century clone of Superman who's DNA has been infused with Kryptonite to make him immune to it, and he also joins the Legion, taking the Kryptonian name Kell-El. Kell is an ice-cold anti-hero who thaws out over the course of the season, but even though the emphasis is on him more than any other season 2 character (except maybe Brainiac Five), Clark still gets a decent amount of attention.

Man, the JL War Superman is so underrated though. He's just good at being Superman! He defeats a brainwashed Flash and Wonder Woman with minimal injuries! He applauds Robin for stabbing him with Kryptonite! He takes less than a second to get Luthor's power armor off him! By contrast, the Warverse Luthor is dreadful... I wish I could see the Young Justice Luthor face off against the War Superman in a season arc, that'd be sublime.

The STAS Superman is problematic in the sense that he's clearly got the proportionate strength of a spider in most episodes and has an obnoxious tendency to get hit by a laser and keel over, but his characterization is really quite good. His powers are just off, that's all.

The racist stuff was present in every hero, even cartoon characters of the time. Those were the times, not making excuses, just observing. At any rate, I liked a lot the few avaiable in youtube, I'll hunt for the others.

Thanks for the crash course in Legion. I'll look for it also. I was so completely out of the comic book world until 2013 that this show barely even registered as existing for me. I was so pessimistic about any Superman media product that I didn't even want to watch anything new.

Both JL War and Throne extended Superman's actions from the 52's originals. He actually fought against Darkseid after Batman's rescue in War and fought a giant sea monster in Throne. High, high kudos to the folks responsible.

The STAS SUperman was hard to watch due to my rejection of the post-crisis model, what you talked about, and many other things for me, for example, the DochaDocha quote above. Unfortunately, JL/U's Superman really soured my appreciation for that interpretation of the character. I think I'll try again, anyway.

[Superlad93]

EDIT: God's and Monsters is an excellent take on Superman and Luthor. I know people on certain websites hated that this is another Superman who's willing to do cold things like kill bad guys, but when he's not killing bad guys, he's take-charge and no-nonsense. Mentally, he's probably sharper than Superman from the DCAU, on average. Luthor is kind of like a Howard Hughes eccentric guy. If you ever seen the movie Contact, he reminds me of the Hadden character.

I was getting a display error, but I watched the movie back then. I liked it a lot, but my memory is a bit sketchy already. Luthor was more a Stephen Hawking guy, didn't let any prejudice against Hernan get in the way of his genius. Ah, he wasn't alredy evil to begin with. He was in a satelite, wasn't he? The 'Super' in this story lost a great enemy, but honestly the he didn't need him, the story didn't need evil Lex.

If there'd been an evil xenophobic Lex in this universe Hernan would have killed him, and Stephen Lex was a great character the few minutes he appeared. Lex, *was* wary of him, and they had a tense relationship. The few minutes they interacted were very good. Heck, this movie was really good.

Sorry, I'm trying more to remember than analyse the movie. But damn, it was really good.

I remember, unfortunately, due to my 'anti-DCAU crusade' that I didn't like that Bruce Timm only thought to give Hernan qualities that should have been given to STAS/JL/U Supes as well. DochaDocha recently put it in a much better way than I could, I'll look for it.

Sorry about the clip!

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who found the Gods and Monsters world fascinating! The clip was the part where Superman visits Lex in the space station. One of my favorite lines was "I'm as much your creation as I am his." This comes from Superman to Lex in regards to their relationship with mention of Superman's real father being a tyrant that blew up Krypton. In this universe Lex is at least 20 years older than Superman, and he finds his ship when it crashes. Lex spends years decoding the ship's data, and with it he maps the galaxy and permissibly makes great advances in tech. Superman eventually gets back his ship from the government but they tell him the data was wiped. Lex felt that Superman had enough power, so he didn't want to add this on top of it.

What I find so fascinating is the very direct father/son relationship undertones shown here. That is such a compelling and novel twist to add to the Lex/Superman dynamic. It works on a number of levels that I'd love to see realized one day. One of my favorite aspects is that the man of tomorrow is the son figure of the man of yesterday. Lex's body failing him and having to look at Superman squander (in his view) his potential. The inherent undertone of jealousy present in the Lex/Superman dynamic fits so well with this.

I honestly think they should've gone with this for MOS.

[Adekis]

The racist stuff was present in every hero, even cartoon characters of the time. Those were the times, not making excuses, just observing. At any rate, I liked a lot the few avaiable in youtube, I'll hunt for the others.

Yeah for sure. The cartoons with racist caricatures are still great action setpieces honestly. I'd recommend them anyway, it's just something to be aware of so it doesn't catch you off guard.

Thanks for the crash course in Legion. I'll look for it also. I was so completely out of the comic book world until 2013 that this show barely even registered as existing for me. I was so pessimistic about any Superman media product that I didn't even want to watch anything new.

That's interesting. Why were you so pessimistic? Anyway, you can get season 1 on DVD or Amazon video, itunes etc but you can only get digital copies of season 2, not DVDs. no idea why they never released it.

Both JL War and Throne extended Superman's actions from the 52's originals. He actually fought against Darkseid after Batman's rescue in War and fought a giant sea monster in Throne. High, high kudos to the folks responsible.

Oh yeah, I've got a great appreciation for the War Superman, and I really hope that we get more of him, including maybe a standalone? -crosses fingers wishfully-

The STAS SUperman was hard to watch due to my rejection of the post-crisis model, what you talked about, and many other things for me, for example, the DochaDocha quote above. Unfortunately, JL/U's Superman really soured my appreciation for that interpretation of the character. I think I'll try again, anyway.

DochaDocha's complaints ring true- STAS's Superman really is less immediately and obviously brilliant than Hernan Guerra both in terms of a sharp wit and intuitive deduction. I kind of wish we had a Gods and Monsters version of Kal-El, as much as that's a contradiction in terms. That said, the STAS Superman really is a whole lot better than you might assume based on the self-righteous JLU version, if you can ignore the fact that the showmakers clearly fudge his powers way down the scale to artificially give him harder fights. My personal favorite episode is The Late Mr. Kent, about- well, you can probably guess.

And you know, if you still don't like it after giving it another try- that's fine too.

[dumbduck]

Sorry about the clip!

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who found the Gods and Monsters world fascinating! The clip was the part where Superman visits Lex in the space station. One of my favorite lines was "I'm as much your creation as I am his." This comes from Superman to Lex in regards to their relationship with mention of Superman's real father being a tyrant that blew up Krypton. In this universe Lex is at least 20 years older than Superman, and he finds his ship when it crashes. Lex spends years decoding the ship's data, and with it he maps the galaxy and permissibly makes great advances in tech. Superman eventually gets back his ship from the government but they tell him the data was wiped. Lex felt that Superman had enough power, so he didn't want to add this on top of it.

What I find so fascinating is the very direct father/son relationship undertones shown here. That is such a compelling a novel twist to add to the Lex/Superman dynamic. It works on a number of levels that I'd love to see realized one day. One of my favorite aspects is that the man of tomorrow is the son figure of the man of yesterday. Lex's body failing him and having to look at Superman squander (in his view) his potential. The inherent undertone of jealousy present in the Lex/Superman dynamic fits so well with this.

I honestly think they should've gone with this for MOS.

Great take, I didn't see this. He was wary of him but I didn't get the father/son paralels.

Holy, heck. What a concept. MOS with a Lex like that.

I could have more to say about this, but right now I got to sleep. Good night.

[dumbduck]

That's interesting. Why were you so pessimistic? Anyway, you can get season 1 on DVD or Amazon video, itunes etc but you can only get digital copies of season 2, not DVDs. no idea why they never released it.

It's basically what we talked about. Maybe you saw a few of my rants about the DCAU a year and a half, 2 years ago. Not very proud of them. It's a mix of a lack of interest, as I was out of comics for a long time, during certain periods they were the farthest thing in my mind even amongst entertainment options; a lack of confidence in WB's animation department, and lack of access, as I never had any cable/sat TV and the only shows we got on open TV were Smallville and JLU.

Oh yeah, I've got a great appreciation for the War Superman, and I really hope that we get more of him, including maybe a standalone? -crosses fingers wishfully-

As a fan of those versions of Clark and Diana and their romance, my great hope is that they allow them to survive as their own versions if the Rebirth comes to that universe.

DochaDocha's complaints ring true- STAS's Superman really is less immediately and obviously
brilliant than Hernan Guerra both in terms of a sharp wit and intuitive deduction. I kind of wish we had a Gods and Monsters version of Kal-El, as much as that's a contradiction in terms. That said, the STAS Superman really is a whole lot better than you might assume based on the self-righteous JLU version, if you can ignore the fact that the showmakers clearly fudge his powers way down the scale to artificially give him harder fights. My personal favorite episode is The Late Mr. Kent, about- well, you can probably guess.

And you know, if you still don't like it after giving it another try- that's fine too.

It's cool. I figure it's useless to get angry at the things I thought were done wrong to that Supes. It's in the past, the (IMHO) damage has been done, maybe I can appreciate it knowing what I'm going to get.



@Superlad93 & DochaDocha

Not much else I can say about Gods and Monsters. Superlad had a great take on Lex in that show. And yes, a Luthor like that would have been awesome in MOS.

One of the things I remember when the movie came out, was a thread talking about how Hernan was a much better character to show Superman as an 'immigrant story'. Unfortunately my post history only goes to page 20 and it usually bugs out at around page 15. Can't find it.

As a fan of traditional Supes, I was bit against it. Tweak the Kents a bit, and you can make a similar story for Clark. Of course, if we forget the heavy flanderization the character has suffered and continue in a proccess of suffering and the heavy forces behind said flanderization.

I'll admit however that Hernan as presented and compared to the 'mean' Superman story is a much better migrant story.

But this was no excuse to only give him the 'smarts' that should have been with DCAU Supes from the begining. Hernan's wit, brains, coupled with B.Timm' older saying that Clark was a 'only a corny WASP' or something like that, was heavily irritating.

Especially when we look at Docha's scene - it was also exactly the scene I thought about when comparing to DCAU Supes - and we think:

Clark is an investigative journalist. He's a freaking investigative journalist. He has to have this sharp wit, he has to have this brain, he has to have these smarts.

[dumbduck]

IMO, Frank Miller should be considered one of the fathers of the modern Superman.

It seems we usually go with Donner (Farmboy, giving many of Clark's hard worked, hands on, earned mythos to Krypton and Jor-El) and Byrne (Heavy cleaning of the mythos, Norman Rockwell Kents, heavy jingoism given to the character). Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think between them comes Miller. The power down of Superman, decosmicing him, dumbing him down, the government agent, which lead to IMHO the poisoning of the supposed relatability of the farmboy before it even started.

Just to situate my opinion of, well, my own opinion, I hate it. I probably hate that this could be truth more than anyone else in this whole forum. It's the reason why I probably will never again fully enjoy Superman. But for better or much worse, I think it's the truth.

[Jim Kelly]

I think that Frank Miller first started reading comics as a kid in the '60s. For him, on TV, Batman was Adam West and, in syndication, Superman was George Reeves. While in the comics, Batman was campy and Superman was the boy scout. I think that's the Batman and Superman that Miller is reacting against in THE DARK KNIGHT prestige format series. While Miller would have known about Batman and Superman comics that developed the characters since those times (and he even contributed art for them)--those wouldn't be as relevant in his imagination.

[Kuwagaton]

DKR baffles me. I was born when it came out and always heard about it as a legendary story. I gave my trade away because when I read it ten years ago, it was hideously dated. Every bit as goofy as the Adam West show but utterly serious about itself. I didn't even read up to the famous fight, actually.

That whole thing comes up as a criticism of Superman even from people who seem to know the character better. They say Clark is a government stooge (far right, not that it matters) who acts as "the Man" holding Bruce Wayne down.

Bruce, the old money billionaire who uses his wealth to literally terrorize the ghetto. Even with his good intentions, he makes Trump look like Springsteen with the lack of actual work for his money.

Anyway, post crisis gets blamed for this approach even though DKR had no association. Miller would have had to go off pre crisis if anything. You could call it an inspiration for what followed, except it's not like that at all post crisis. They go from a rocky first impression to grudging respect, to working together, and then to the actual World's Finest story where they exchange Christmas gifts. And a good bit of that was facilitated by Byrne.

[Ascended]

DKR baffles me. I was born when it came out and always heard about it as a legendary story. I gave my trade away because when I read it ten years ago, it was hideously dated. Every bit as goofy as the Adam West show but utterly serious about itself. I didn't even read up to the famous fight, actually.

That whole thing comes up as a criticism of Superman even from people who seem to know the character better. They say Clark is a government stooge (far right, not that it matters) who acts as "the Man" holding Bruce Wayne down.

Bruce, the old money billionaire who uses his wealth to literally terrorize the ghetto. Even with his good intentions, he makes Trump look like Springsteen with the lack of actual work for his money.

Anyway, post crisis gets blamed for this approach even though DKR had no association. Miller would have had to go off pre crisis if anything. You could call it an inspiration for what followed, except it's not like that at all post crisis. They go from a rocky first impression to grudging respect, to working together, and then to the actual World's Finest story where they exchange Christmas gifts. And a good bit of that was facilitated by Byrne.

Im not going to go out of my way to defend Clark's treatment in DKR, because it was pretty bad, but it was established (if I recall correctly) that Clark went "Establishment Man" to combat the corruption in government from within, while Bruce fought the same fight from the outside. Clark wasn't *really* a tool of the administration, he was undercover (perhaps so deep he lost himself a bit, but undercover nonetheless, which still doesnt excuse his utter failure to enact change) Even their fight at the end has a certain amount of "theater" to it; they were both playing their roles and knew they'd have to hurt each other, but Clark still lets Bruce escape and keeps the secret of his still being alive.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Im more interested in a Gods and Monster version of Clark Kent than a Gods and Monster's Kal-el. Seeing a non powered Clark Kent act as a foil for a young Hernan would be an interesting flashback.

[daBronzeBomma]

Neither Kal nor Kara nor Krypto (nor Zod) have ever pooped nor even farted in their lives ... because they are not physically able to do so. Kryptonians evolved past producing biological waste eons ago.

I'm on board with Grant Morrison on this: no Kryptonian even has an anus or rectum (like certain species of owls IRL).

[stephens2177]

Neither Kal nor Kara nor Krypto (nor Zod) have ever pooped nor even farted in their lives ... because they are not physically able to do so. Kryptonians evolved past producing biological waste eons ago.

I'm on board with Grant Morrison on this: no Kryptonian even has an anus or rectum (like certain species of owls IRL).

So does a natural or manufactured hybrid have 2? Do they have those body parts?

[dumbduck]

My post about this might have come as much more serious than I wished it to be.

I have to repeat the obligatory lauding of Superman the Movie. It was magic. It was Avengers 30 years before it. It's not Donner's fault that none was able reproduce that kind of magic for so long.

But what worked so well in the movie, and I know I'm not alone in this, might have damaged the character in the comics in the long run. It was not only Donner. With Byrne and Miller (even if he's not a 'father' but an obnoxious uncle), the end result is IMO, damaging to Supes.

All the tweaks that Donner and Byrne gave Supes are well meaning, of course. But when taken into a group, plus Miller's influence, the effect is damaging. Kind of like too much medicine, or like an aviation accident, never only one factor, usually it's a series of factors that lead to the disaster.

If it had been only Donner's tweaks, or Byrne's tweaks, I think the end result wouldn't have been so bad. If it had been both their modifications, but if DKR had never existed, who knows, Supes would also be in a better spot nowadays. But the combination of all influences is disastrous.

This all, of course, for a Supes fan with my preferences.

That whole thing comes up as a criticism of Superman even from people who seem to know the character better. They say Clark is a government stooge (far right, not that it matters) who acts as "the Man" holding Bruce Wayne down.

Bruce, the old money billionaire who uses his wealth to literally terrorize the ghetto. Even with his good intentions, he makes Trump look like Springsteen with the lack of actual work for his money.

I agree, it's ridiculous, but it's what has stuck. As recently as 2 years ago, in an issue of Sensation Comics, Diana explains to Clark about gay marriage and LGBT rights. It was a great story for Wondy but made Clark look like a fool. Explaining that Clark is much more enlightened than that and that he's one of Diana's oldest and closest friends was all for nothing, he was 'the guy from Kansas'.

Anyway, post crisis gets blamed for this approach even though DKR had no association. Miller would have had to go off pre crisis if anything. You could call it an inspiration for what followed, except it's not like that at all post crisis. They go from a rocky first impression to grudging respect, to working together, and then to the actual World's Finest story where they exchange Christmas gifts. And a good bit of that was facilitated by Byrne.

This one? I still have it:


https://68.media.tumblr.com/13fa6253...53xo1_1280.jpg



https://68.media.tumblr.com/aa754099...53xo2_1280.jpg


Sorry to the fans of Zack Snyder, God bless him and his family, Bruce Timm and Paul Dini. But this is Batman and Superman. This is respect. This is friendship. This is World's Finest.

https://68.media.tumblr.com/857b50fb...53xo3_1280.jpg

Im not going to go out of my way to defend Clark's treatment in DKR, because it was pretty bad, but it was established (if I recall correctly) that Clark went "Establishment Man" to combat the corruption in government from within, while Bruce fought the same fight from the outside. Clark wasn't *really* a tool of the administration, he was undercover (perhaps so deep he lost himself a bit, but undercover nonetheless, which still doesnt excuse his utter failure to enact change) Even their fight at the end has a certain amount of "theater" to it; they were both playing their roles and knew they'd have to hurt each other, but Clark still lets Bruce escape and keeps the secret of his still being alive.

Was this in DKSA? I never read it unlike DKR, only saw a few scans. If that's where it was, the problem is that it came way too late, never mind that Clark took another, 'real' beat down this time. 14 years after DKR? But it's cool that Miller retconned it to this.

[dumbduck]

As I unpacked the comics to take those pics, I decided to make a few 'swag' photos.

I can't decide which is the best Batman story, Year One or Shaman. I lost #4 of Shaman I don't know when, I don't know where, probably in a move. I had Year One in the mini format then common over here, but sold all of that collection much earlier. Read DKR borrowed from a friend and only much later bought this edition.

https://68.media.tumblr.com/c8241892...53xo4_1280.jpg

Both brasilian and american issues of Lex's unauthorized biography. End of the 80s/ begining of the 90s, imported magazines started being sold here. As I was learning english, I bought quite a few. With both versions I could compare the texts to see the shortcuts and colloquial adaptations the translator needed to do. Lex's use of the Daily Planet for personal gain hits close to home for who knows about brazilian press'... intricacies. Both then and today...

https://68.media.tumblr.com/e077b64a...53xo5_1280.jpg


In english, I had a few Supes issues, Bats', I think most of Wondy's War of the Gods, but not the tie-ins, a few JLIs. Eventually I needed money and sold them all in a box. That issue of Wondy is the reverse of the Shaman that I lost. I didn't know it had been left behind until years later when I found in a box of brazilian comics.


Swag shot. (Larfleeze voice): Mine, all miiiiiiine*. I still have another smaller box with more. They're not in great condition as I never took much care until it was too late.

https://68.media.tumblr.com/a941fc4d...53xo6_1280.jpg


*Não, não estou vendendo.