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  1. #121
    Extraordinary Member TheCape's Avatar
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    Here we go:
    -Beyond visual iconography (a pretty cool one by the way), i never understood why Braniac is in the A-List treats of Superman rogues
    -Erradicator is one my favorite villains
    -I think than the charather identified himself as Clark Joseph Kent, doesn't mean that his kryptonian side should be neglected or ignored
    -Even with his problems, i still consider the Post-Crisis Superman my favorite version
    -Doomsday has more potential that people realized.

  2. #122
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    I think of the Legion as Superman characters. They may have developed to the point where they could be free of Superman, but they started out as essentially copies of Superboy--only existing to provide characters for Superbory to react against. Much like the Club of Heroes for Batman. Everything about the Legion was informed by their association with Superboy.

    The New Gods? That's a different kettle of fish--because Kirby had the idea for them before he came over to DC. But once he was there, he very much used Superman as a vehicle to promote the Fourth World.

    I think both groups benefit by the association with the Superman family--there's a built-in audience they can exploit when they need the boost.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCape View Post
    -Beyond visual iconography (a pretty cool one by the way), i never understood why Braniac is in the A-List treats of Superman rogues

    I also always thought he was highly overrated. But I've come to realize he has potential. I think he needs a writer that can do something really interesting with him. I think Mark Millar said he would use a lot of Brainiac in his upcoming Superman project.

  4. #124
    Incredible Member the nomad's Avatar
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    Controversial Superman opinions. I have too many to count but just a few.

    1. Clark Kent is Superman, NOT Superman is Clark Kent.
    2. Christopher Reeves' Clark Kent is terrible. I"m not a fan of the bumbling baffoon. Dean Cain and Tom Welling and now Tyler Hoechlin all nailed Clark Kent. He can be a bit nerdy or kinda awkward but not overtly comical. He's still a confident, Worldly-wise man, who wants to use his awesome powers to help the world and use his keen reporter senses to bring truth to the public.
    3. Clark/Superman should be one of the smartest characters in the DC universe. He's Kryptonian and Kryptonians (Especially the House of EL) are known for their scientific minds and intellect. Often times in the comics and even more so in the movies (Snyderverse) Superman is just the guy that punches stuff. That's not true. If Clark can go toe to toe with Lex Luthor mentally then that's saying something.
    4. Darkseid and the New Gods should strictly be Superman and Supergirl villains. I mean really only a handful (Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter) of DC characters can stand up to them besides the two of them.
    5. Lois and CLark should just be friends with some hints of a romantic tension. Lois should still be a huge part of his life but sry, SUperman and WOnder WOman all the way.
    6. Superman vs Batman should be no question, but to be sporting. Superman wins but only after a long and hard fought battle with Batman and all of his allies and gadgets and Mecha Suits. But honestly ppl come on Supes wins. I see a fight btwn Batman and Superman being like the first Rocky movie. Batman goes the distance but still looses.
    7. Superman vs Flash is a tie however it's a tie only without the speed force. With the speed force then I guess Flash wins or whatever.

    THose are just a few to start off with.

  5. #125
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    Necessity is the mother of invention. Brainiac himself when he was first introduced in ACTION COMICS No. 242 was no great shakes. He was your standard alien villain--his space monkey Koko was much more interesting and Brainiac's stunt of abducting the city of Kandor added a lot to the Superman mythology and this was at the very beginning of the Weisinger revitalization of Superman in 1958. If Brainiac had stayed that guy, he would hardly be worth mentioning in the same breath as Grax.

    What elevated Brainiac to the height of Superman rogues is SUPERMAN No. 267 (February '64)--which featured a staggering epic: "The Team of Luthor and Brainiac," at 27 pages one of the longest stories to appear in a standard 32 page comic, by Edmond Hamilton, Curt Swan, George Klein. As explained in the letter column for that issue, Brainiac is provided with a new origin that establishes him as a computer-android, because there was a pre-existing computer toy also called Brainiac--and to settle the trademark dispute, Weisinger revamped Brainiac so as to promote the toy and make its trademark owners happy. So Mort made lemonade out of lemons.

    The computer nature of Brainiac gave DC something that they could exploit in so many different ways. Unlike a human, Brainiac can't really be killed. Superman is free to unleash all his powers on the villain, because his rule against killing doesn't apply to androids. And Brainiac will always come back--he's essentially a string of computer code, 1s and 0s.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Necessity is the mother of invention. Brainiac himself when he was first introduced in ACTION COMICS No. 242 was no great shakes. He was your standard alien villain--his space monkey Koko was much more interesting and Brainiac's stunt of abducting the city of Kandor added a lot to the Superman mythology and this was at the very beginning of the Weisinger revitalization of Superman in 1958. If Brainiac had stayed that guy, he would hardly be worth mentioning in the same breath as Grax.

    What elevated Brainiac to the height of Superman rogues is SUPERMAN No. 267 (February '64)--which featured a staggering epic: "The Team of Luthor and Brainiac," at 27 pages one of the longest stories to appear in a standard 32 page comic, by Edmond Hamilton, Curt Swan, George Klein. As explained in the letter column for that issue, Brainiac is provided with a new origin that establishes him as a computer-android, because there was a pre-existing computer toy also called Brainiac--and to settle the trademark dispute, Weisinger revamped Brainiac so as to promote the toy and make its trademark owners happy. So Mort made lemonade out of lemons.

    The computer nature of Brainiac gave DC something that they could exploit in so many different ways. Unlike a human, Brainiac can't really be killed. Superman is free to unleash all his powers on the villain, because his rule against killing doesn't apply to androids. And Brainiac will always come back--he's essentially a string of computer code, 1s and 0s.
    I'm conflicted about Brainiac being a computer program. That interpretation is cool but at the same time conflicts with Hank Henshaw.

  7. #127
    Astonishing Member FishyZombie's Avatar
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    there hasn't been a Superman movie worth watching in decades besides maybe MOS. And really BvS screwed up a lot of the few things MOS got right. I think they should let big blue sit for a couple years. Maybe make a Red son movie in the meanwhile.

  8. #128
    Ultimate Member Sacred Knight's Avatar
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    At the very base level of the concept of character, Superman is real guy and Clark Kent is the mask. In practice it can and very much should be deeper, more complex, and more nuanced than that, but again I'm just talking the surface level. Byrne's switcheroo of that base surface was a huge mistake and continues to be today.
    Last edited by Sacred Knight; 12-05-2016 at 09:45 PM.
    "They can be a great people Kal-El, they wish to be. They only lack the light to show the way. For this reason above all, their capacity for good, I have sent them you. My only son." - Jor-El

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  9. #129
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    It's kind of a linguistic argument about Clark and Superman. I think everybody is on the same page in seeing that there's an authentic person. We just get trapped in different ways of expressing this in words.

    Christopher Reeve played that authentic person. We see him mostly in the Superman character but also in the Clark character. The authentic person is more obvious in the Jeff East Clark Kent (voice dubbed by Reeve) than later on when Reeve Clark Kent is trying to mislead people and present himself as distinctly different from Superman. And also Reeve is introducing some necessary comic relief by playing Clark as Cary Grant's Dr. David Huxley from BRINGING UP BABY.

    In the case of Byrne Clark Kent, he didn't go to such efforts to establish a distinction between the two versions of the authentic self. But Byrne did manufacture some attributes of Clark Kent that were fake (glasses, slicked back hair, working out with weights).

    I don't recall any time when it's been shown that "Superman" is a misrepresentation of the authentic self. But Superman could be that--it could be that he overplays things about himself to establish a greater difference between the public perception of Superman and Clark.

    But we know that there's an authentic person in there. We know this because we apply to Superman/Clark what we apply to ourselves. We believe that everyone has an authentic self. Some people are more open and honest about showing their true self all the time. Although, I wouldn't fault most of us for being a bit more guarded and transforming ourselves based on the circumstances.

    For some of us hiding our authentic self might be a necessity. But for a lot of us, we enjoy putting on these personas and taking them off. Sometimes, acting like a different person frees us to do new things.

  10. #130
    Spectacular Member BeefBourguignon's Avatar
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    Yes, to me is different facets of the same person. I do not come across exactly the same with my parents as I do my friends or my boss. I would not say I am inauthentic in any of these circumstances. They are all me with different emphasis. Same with Clark/Superman/Kal-El.
    Great repositories for everything regarding Post-Crisis Superman
    http://www.fortressofbaileytude.com/
    http://superman86to99.tumblr.com/

  11. #131
    Phantom Zone Escapee manofsteel1979's Avatar
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    More thoughts...
    1) Lyle Talbot,Jessie Eisenberg and Michael Rosenbaum are the best live action Lex Luthors' yet. Gene Hackman's Lex was entertaining to watch but he really wasn't Lex at all. Same with John Shea,who I kinda liked as a near perfect version of Byrne Lex,but I've grown less and less Keen of Post Crisis Byrne Luthor over the years. Kevin Spacey was the biggest missed opportunity of all.

    2) if George Perez ' original ideas for Lois was utilized in the New 52 ( I.e. being a keeper of the secret from the start and a close confidant of Clark Kent) , Lois' role in the revised myth going forward would have been defined and secured and it would have created a new angle from which to explore that dynamic without having her be his primary love interest , likely tempering down the animosity towards the Superman/ WW ship from some segments of fandom. Instead,they opted to go back to the outdated" triangle for two"... except without the benefit of the romance angle,dumped Perez's work and essentially as a result dumped Lois for much of the next several years because the powers that be didn't know what to do with her or just didn't want to use her,and thus was barely used outside of Superman Unchained and as a meal for Parasite and victim of Brainiac in Lobdell's Superman run. Truth did finally start to make Lois matter , but it was too little too late.completely shamefull.

    3) If it's true that Andy Diggle was pushed out of ACTION primarily because he wanted to develop a dynamic with Lois and Clark ...then it was a huge mistake. His one issue that he fully scripted was one of the best of the entire run. Yes we got Pak as a result,but I really wish he would have gotten a chance to finish his plans. He deserves another shot in Superman. Get him on ACTION!

    4) Sadly,so far we've seen very little of Lois in the new run so far. She's being treated better,but not by that much.

    5) Superman's power level should be baseline 1938 or Morrison early Nuperman levels. He should never be merely human when depowered or harmed by Green K. The only exception perhaps is Very rare Gold K.
    Last edited by manofsteel1979; 12-06-2016 at 03:01 AM.
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  12. #132
    Mighty Member Mr. Mastermind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the nomad View Post
    Darkseid and the New Gods should strictly be Superman and Supergirl villains. I mean really only a handful (Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter) of DC characters can stand up to them besides the two of them.
    How about the New Gods be New Gods characters rather than forcing them into character's worlds that they don't belong in?

    My controversial opinion is that Darkseid and Superman's relationship is incredibly uninteresting. I'm open to the New Gods interacting with other characters like GL and WW but I never want them to interact with Superman now because some writers have this idea that they should only be Superman supporting characters. It's like making Brainiac a permanent Cyborg villain.

  13. #133
    Rookie Member JamesC's Avatar
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    Superman should be a true 'Citizen of Earth' and as such should spend a great deal of his time in different countries, interacting with different cultures etc.
    Smallville, Metropolis and his life and relationships in those places should be a touchstone and something that helps him to understand a human perspective.
    Superman should have an excellent knowledge of geography, world history, science, politics, religion and culture.
    Superman should balance his 'human' morality with an almost ambassadorial role as a paragon of Kryptonian values.

  14. #134
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post

    In the case of Byrne Clark Kent, he didn't go to such efforts to establish a distinction between the two versions of the authentic self. But Byrne did manufacture some attributes of Clark Kent that were fake (glasses, slicked back hair, working out with weights).

    I don't recall any time when it's been shown that "Superman" is a misrepresentation of the authentic self. But Superman could be that--it could be that he overplays things about himself to establish a greater difference between the public perception of Superman and Clark.
    I agree. I never thought the Clark thing impaired the Superman identity and "they act alike" wasn't that big of a problem because it tended to be the situation that changed who people saw. Meanwhile that Lobdell thing where he postured up on Morgan Edge was strangely an enforcement of this criticism.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Mastermind View Post
    How about the New Gods be New Gods characters rather than forcing them into character's worlds that they don't belong in?

    My controversial opinion is that Darkseid and Superman's relationship is incredibly uninteresting. I'm open to the New Gods interacting with other characters like GL and WW but I never want them to interact with Superman now because some writers have this idea that they should only be Superman supporting characters. It's like making Brainiac a permanent Cyborg villain.
    I don't care for the New Gods to be involved in Superman, but that analogy doesn't fit. Brainiac didn't begin in a Cyborg comic.

  15. #135
    Fantastic Member Tra-EL's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeefBourguignon View Post
    Yes, to me is different facets of the same person. I do not come across exactly the same with my parents as I do my friends or my boss. I would not say I am inauthentic in any of these circumstances. They are all me with different emphasis. Same with Clark/Superman/Kal-El.
    Good post. I can agree with this and the same should be technically applied to Clark's personality in how he juggles multiple demeanor's in high pressure settings.

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