Controversial Superman Opinions

[Adekis]

I guess these are pretty common opinions, althought many real Supes fans are against them:

Kryptonite and Red Sun radiation weaknesses have to go. I've seen the arguments why since the 1st time I lurked in any kind of comic book forum and I'm pretty sure most fans know them.

Superman has to be the 'master of the suns', any sun, red, yellow, blue. This establishes his 'alphaness' amongst kryptonians the same way Batman fans want his overall alphaness in his franchise and Wondy fans want hers.

I'm on board.

Superman, even if he's the 1st hero, needs a well established, solid, canon training period. That such a thing was never detailed post 86s origins is just one more element of the damage of the 'farmboy' concept.

And I'm double on board.

You know, I'm a big DCEU apologist but I really do wish that Snyder's chosen source material for Man of Steel and Dawn of Justice hadn't been the post-Crisis Superman books. Sure, the fact that I think Dawn of Justice is actually pretty good already qualifies as a controversial opinion, but the pre-Crisis Superman did the kind of mythic grandeur and melancholy that Snyder seems to like with about a hundred times more grace and dignity than the post-Crisis Superman. Of course, they never tried to milk pre-Crisis Superman for a long-term "I'm quitting" plot either, and a pre-Crisis themed Superman movie lacking in whimsy wouldn't be any more commercially viable than a post-Crisis one I suppose... I digress.

I don't know what's so great about the farmboy approach compared to the universal renaissance man of the galaxy, past and future.

[FishyZombie]

My controversial opinion is that I don't like the SM,BM, WW trinity. Maybe there was a time where I did, but the last couple of years, made me hate it.

The Superman/Wonder Woman relationship is extremely important - For Superman - the character, the brand.

Imo, I don't think either is as important as people think. Superman as a brand and character in no way needs wonder woman, nor batman. Just like they don't need him. That BvS film soured my opinion on Bats and Supes's friendship. Though I do like when Batman seems to highlight Kal's sense of humor. Come to think about it, Hishe pretty much delivers all I want from their interactions. And that's because it parodizes it. And that insufferably gimmicky crossover romance between Supes and Wondie put bad enough taste in my mouth that I'd be fine if they just become friendly acquaintances going forward. Both character's main books are so much better off, now that they've finally been split up. The "trinity" as a "trinity" is unappealing to me. Yeah they're the 3 most iconic dc characters, but does that really need to mean anything in universe? Also the current trinity ongoing is one of the worst rebirth comics.

[Dolores - The Worst Poster Ever]

I've said this is a few other places, but I don't think I've posted it here, which is where it would most belong.

I think Superman should gradually move away from using violence and force to resolve the problems he's faced with, eventually moving away from violence altogether.

I also think part of this comes from Superman forming connections with other people, working in tandem with them to solve problems without resorting to violence. Besides other Superverse heroes, I'm talking about people like Hiro, Lee, Shay, etc.

I get the frustration some people have with Superman written as needing help, but I think the issue is with how it's been handled, rather than the core idea of Superman solving problems with others.

[DochaDocha]

Kryptonite and Red Sun radiation weaknesses have to go. I've seen the arguments why since the 1st time I lurked in any kind of comic book forum and I'm pretty sure most fans know them.

I get the frustration some people have with Superman written as needing help, but I think the issue is with how it's been handled, rather than the core idea of Superman solving problems with others.

I think in some unimaginative JL stories, you typically see something like magic, Kryptonite, or red sunlight, and that takes Superman out of the equation right away for someone else to save the day while Superman sits on the sidelines and licks his wounds.

I'm perfectly fine with Kryptonite so long as 1) it's not as plentiful as aluminum foil; the idea that there are maybe a couple kilograms of the stuff available on Earth is fine by me and 2) it's not an instant win for the bad guys. I had to chuckle in that one episode of Justice League Action when spoilers:

the young heroes waved a tiny sliver of Kryptonite in front of the Phantom Zone criminals and they just laughed it off because that pitiful amount wouldn't affect them. On the other hand, when that pittance of the green stuff is in front of Superman in animation, it typical puts him on his death bed.

end of spoilers

I should also add a third caveat: it is next to impossible to create synthetic Kryptonite, otherwise any a-hole science guy has an upper hand over Superman that he won't have over pretty much the entire catalogue of DC heroes.

Superman will long be DC's de facto victim of the Worf Effect, so I think we're going to continue seeing this boring and unflattering writing of Superman.

[_Feely_]

Superman 2 is a terrible film.

[Kuwagaton]

When Superman raced the Flash around the Earth, there were all sorts of conditions placed on the two contestants. Yes, the Scarlet Speedster could control all his molecules--which I don't think even the Metropolis Marvel could do so well--yet, had Superman been able to use all his other powers, there's no way Barry could have won in an all out race to the outer limits.

If he can't beat Barry on his own terms, then he's not faster. If anything, using other things like flight makes him looks like he's compensating. It's basically like calling Superman a better scientist than Reed Richards as he uses his natural eyes to see subatomic particles.

Controversial opinion: Superman is a very underrated character that only a few people really get.

This seems like a common opinion, it's just hard to construct. The only two people who truly knew Superman both passed many years ago. Everyone else, well you get into "I get Superman because I say so" or "they don't get Superman because they don't agree with me."

I was surprised that after really reading a lot of internet posts, a lot more people care about their idea of Superman or adaptations in mediums than they care about the decades of published comics. Of course, I don't think there's a logical way to assess their fandom based on that. But along those lines :

pre-Crisis Superman did the kind of mythic grandeur and melancholy that Snyder seems to like with about a hundred times more grace and dignity than the post-Crisis Superman. Of course, they never tried to milk pre-Crisis Superman for a long-term "I'm quitting" plot either, and a pre-Crisis themed Superman movie lacking in whimsy wouldn't be any more commercially viable than a post-Crisis one I suppose... I digress.

I don't know what's so great about the farmboy approach compared to the universal renaissance man of the galaxy, past and future.

It's what people know. For all the comments on what CoIE ruined, people infrequently discuss pre crisis stuff here. Or really anything before 2003 if we exclude the Death and Return saga and tidbits like the mullet or electric powers.

I'd like to think bronze age reprints books would land well, but there's no reason to expect that anything would change. The numerous Bronze age reprints we already have go unmentioned.

I think Superman should gradually move away from using violence and force to resolve the problems he's faced with, eventually moving away from violence altogether.

It seems just about impossible in this medium to make something like that stick. A superhero who never punches people again? I just applaud them for trying.

[Jim Kelly]

If he can't beat Barry on his own terms, then he's not faster. If anything, using other things like flight makes him looks like he's compensating. It's basically like calling Superman a better scientist than Reed Richards as he uses his natural eyes to see subatomic particles.

I don't understand how that works. Superman's powers are all part of him, they're interdependent, just as Flash's powers are interdependent. I think it would be very hard for either of them to turn off one power and just use one exclusively. The Flash had speed, some kind of force-field that protects him from burning up, massive resources of energy and an ability to defy the laws of physics. Superman had all of these except the force-field, but what he had in place of the force-field was super-invulnerabilty that protected him from forces that even the Flash couldn't withstand.

The reason Superman uses his speed in flight much of the time, I'd argue, is to protect other people from the force of his speed. Especially when he breaks the time barrier. At that point he's going well beyond the speed of light and mastering forces unknown to man in order to twist his body out of normal space-time. So it's safer for us mere mortals if he pulls that stunt well away from our planet.

Thus, if they both run as fast as possible--which is beyond the speed of light for both of them--Barry's body would break down from these incredible forces before Superman's would. In a foot race, Barry could maybe beat Superman in a sprint, but in a long distance race that would maybe last a hundred years, Superman would still be standing after Flash's body had completely exhausted itself leaving him a skeleton.

If they could turn off all those other powers they had, then it would be a foot race between two ordinary people, which the Flash would win because he had a runner's body back then while Superman was a bit on the tubby side--but they would both get beat by Bob Hayes who was considered the world's fastest man at the time.

[Johnny Thunders!]

For me the Flash still gets to be the Fastest Man Alive, even if there was just one time, just one time where Superman was faster. I think if you take away the possibility that Superman could conceivably, at least once, out run the Flash, you are denying an essential part of Superman getting to be SUPERman.

In my book he's an impossibility machine. If common sense says it's impossible to outrun the Flash, thats when Superman raises his hand and says, "Let me see what I can do." For me the rule is this, you have all the speed, strength, and wits to do anything you want BUT you have to make the most moral decision. Thats the only limitation I see with Superman. All the power is a given, and really its just strength, speed, vision, and wits. His big limitation is, given all that, how do you make the most moral decision? What's the right move since anything is possible?

And I see this with Siegel and Shuster from day one. People always say, faster than a speeding bullet, that's it! But Siegel has him break orbit, outrun lightning, and in at least one story, time travel through super speed. Honestly, Golden Age Superman is so powerful, in some stories he is basically a trickster god to the poor mortals around him. He imitates human beings, he take their identity, he confounds them with impossible feats. He kind of makes fun of them as he takes them on tours through their corrupt lives

And practically speaking, where's the challenge to Flash and the fun as a reader if a Superman Flash race is basically lighting vs. tree sap? Don't Flash friends want that to be a real race? I do and I'm a Flash fan too!

[Adekis]

Superman 2 is a terrible film.

FINALLY! Someone else agrees!

Okay, here's one: even after all this time, I still think that killing off Superman to replace him with another version of Superman is a bad idea, and the most fun I've had in Rebirth Superman stories have been New Super-Man and Lex "Superman" Luthor doing his "Superior Spider-Man". I wish that Lex had been the focus of Rebirth. Kal's been doing okay, but alone out of all the changes they made in Rebirth and Reborn, I still like only his costume better than the New 52 version.

[Agent Z]

For me the Flash still gets to be the Fastest Man Alive, even if there was just one time, just one time where Superman was faster. I think if you take away the possibility that Superman could conceivably, at least once, out run the Flash, you are denying an essential part of Superman getting to be SUPERman.

In my book he's an impossibility machine. If common sense says it's impossible to outrun the Flash, thats when Superman raises his hand and says, "Let me see what I can do." For me the rule is this, you have all the speed, strength, and wits to do anything you want BUT you have to make the most moral decision. Thats the only limitation I see with Superman. All the power is a given, and really its just strength, speed, vision, and wits. His big limitation is, given all that, how do you make the most moral decision? What's the right move since anything is possible?

And I see this with Siegel and Shuster from day one. People always say, faster than a speeding bullet, that's it! But Siegel has him break orbit, outrun lightning, and in at least one story, time travel through super speed. Honestly, Golden Age Superman is so powerful, in some stories he is basically a trickster god to the poor mortals around him. He imitates human beings, he take their identity, he confounds them with impossible feats. He kind of makes fun of them as he takes them on tours through their corrupt lives

And practically speaking, where's the challenge to Flash and the fun as a reader if a Superman Flash race is basically lighting vs. tree sap? Don't Flash friends want that to be a real race? I do and I'm a Flash fan too!

Turning this around, what exactly is the fun in no challenge for Superman either? Super does not mean unbeatable

[dumbduck]

I'm on board.

And I'm double on board.

You know, I'm a big DCEU apologist but I really do wish that Snyder's chosen source material for Man of Steel and Dawn of Justice hadn't been the post-Crisis Superman books. Sure, the fact that I think Dawn of Justice is actually pretty good already qualifies as a controversial opinion, but the pre-Crisis Superman did the kind of mythic grandeur and melancholy that Snyder seems to like with about a hundred times more grace and dignity than the post-Crisis Superman. Of course, they never tried to milk pre-Crisis Superman for a long-term "I'm quitting" plot either, and a pre-Crisis themed Superman movie lacking in whimsy wouldn't be any more commercially viable than a post-Crisis one I suppose... I digress.

I don't know what's so great about the farmboy approach compared to the universal renaissance man of the galaxy, past and future.

Thanks. The funny thing is that the training period could work even with the farmboy model, even with the most 'Norman Rockwell' of Kents. Think about it: The Legion. Clark learning martial arts(Karate Kid), mind resistance(Saturn Girl), energy control(Sun Boy), etc, from them. The paradox loop of the 'idol' learning from his 'fans'. What could be more at the same time as sci-fi, fantastic and whimsical than this? What could be more SUPERMAN than this?

They don't need to break the 'farmboy' for that. Clark does this in his hollidays and vacations. Spends 3,4 months in the future but comes back the next day in the present.

The farmboy can still be this renaissance man, DC/WB just have to want it to be so.

My controversial opinion is that I don't like the SM,BM, WW trinity. Maybe there was a time where I did, but the last couple of years, made me hate it.

I agree completely. The 'trinity' is most of the time a completely artificial, forced and malleable (in the worst of ways) concept usually used to justify bias and worst of all, 'shiping' preferences. There was no 'trinity' in Bruce Timm's cartoon universe, no 'trinity' in BvS. Yet DC wants us to accept it exists when it suits certain writers and fandoms.

Imo, I don't think either is as important as people think. Superman as a brand and character in no way needs wonder woman, nor batman. Just like they don't need him. That BvS film soured my opinion on Bats and Supes's friendship. Though I do like when Batman seems to highlight Kal's sense of humor. Come to think about it, Hishe pretty much delivers all I want from their interactions. And that's because it parodizes it. And that insufferably gimmicky crossover romance between Supes and Wondie put bad enough taste in my mouth that I'd be fine if they just become friendly acquaintances going forward. Both character's main books are so much better off, now that they've finally been split up. The "trinity" as a "trinity" is unappealing to me. Yeah they're the 3 most iconic dc characters, but does that really need to mean anything in universe? Also the current trinity ongoing is one of the worst rebirth comics.

Funny enough, I only disagree with you in the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship bit. If you look back the last 30 years, you'll see that this relationship has been much more respectful to Superman than the Batman/Superman one.

The 'shared universe' excuse is also very malleable:

'It's a shared universe!', when it suits writers (Example: Batman appearing in many Superman origin stories. Or the latest Superman 'visit' to be defeated in another hero's book.)

'They are different franchises!', when it suits writers (Example: Superman not appearing in Wonder Woman or Batman books and origins.)

[dumbduck]

I've said this is a few other places, but I don't think I've posted it here, which is where it would most belong.

I think Superman should gradually move away from using violence and force to resolve the problems he's faced with, eventually moving away from violence altogether.

I also think part of this comes from Superman forming connections with other people, working in tandem with them to solve problems without resorting to violence. Besides other Superverse heroes, I'm talking about people like Hiro, Lee, Shay, etc.

I get the frustration some people have with Superman written as needing help, but I think the issue is with how it's been handled, rather than the core idea of Superman solving problems with others.

If you are talking about that run from Joe Casey (I also like it for all the wrong reasons: Golden Age Superman): Wasn't that a point out of the curve? I also liked what I saw of that story, but it takes a writer wanting to give his/her best stories to Superman. I don't think many like that exist nowadays.

Stories like that also require Superman to be at a level of competence and paradoxically (I hate this word) 'alphaness' that few writers have given Superman since 1986.

Think about what he's facing right now: Zod, Mongul, Eradicator, CyborgSupes. Can a pacifist Superman defeat them without resorting to punching? In theory.

But such a Superman would have to have evolved at the same rate as characters like Luthor and Batman have been since 1986. Instead, he... stagnated.

The other problem is that if he had been evolved, updated and wanked at the same rate as those pet characters... He'd be today the equivalent of one of those Marvel all powerful cosmic beings. More abstract concepts than characters, thus unusable.

It's a no win situation, IMO.

[dumbduck]

I think in some unimaginative JL stories, you typically see something like magic, Kryptonite, or red sunlight, and that takes Superman out of the equation right away for someone else to save the day while Superman sits on the sidelines and licks his wounds.

I'm perfectly fine with Kryptonite so long as 1) it's not as plentiful as aluminum foil; the idea that there are maybe a couple kilograms of the stuff available on Earth is fine by me and 2) it's not an instant win for the bad guys. I had to chuckle in that one episode of Justice League Action when spoilers:

the young heroes waved a tiny sliver of Kryptonite in front of the Phantom Zone criminals and they just laughed it off because that pitiful amount wouldn't affect them. On the other hand, when that pittance of the green stuff is in front of Superman in animation, it typical puts him on his death bed.

end of spoilers

I should also add a third caveat: it is next to impossible to create synthetic Kryptonite, otherwise any a-hole science guy has an upper hand over Superman that he won't have over pretty much the entire catalogue of DC heroes.

Superman will long be DC's de facto victim of the Worf Effect, so I think we're going to continue seeing this boring and unflattering writing of Superman.

I agree with almost everything, including the spoilers. Would really like to see a scene like that for Supes.

And I know that even without K or RS, Supes would still get taken out of a story by writers that don't like him. And that's exactly one of the arguments against the weaknesses: They already do it anyway even with K and RS still existing. With Supes getting defeated through concussive force or energy blasts or anything else without K, RS or even magic.

So, IMHO, get rid of it, all of it, or at least Superman's weakness for it, for crying out loud.

[Jim Kelly]

I've probably already posted on here a few times that fights are the least interesting things in comic books for me. Granted some artists get creative with fight scenes, but for the most part, as a reader, I see them as a big waste of pages. It's even worse when you have silent characters--at least when you have characters that talk-fight, other things can happen in the scene.

And the whole debate about Superman's power levels and his weaknesses is germane to fights. Which again are the least interesting thing for me. So I really don't give a flying Fig Newton--and you'd have to pay me a thousand dollars to eat a Fig Newton.

The powers and the weaknesses are two sides of the same coin and both come in handy for stories that aren't about fighting. I like a story that tells about the Man of Steel living without his super-powers, there's some non-fight character development that can happen in that scenario--and a red sun is good for that, as are various other power-robbing weaknesses. At the same time I like it when Superman's powers give him a perception of the universe that is beyond what mere mortals will ever know.

The Man of Tomorrow is a vehicle for exploring all different kinds of situations--some human, some superhuman--and it makes sense to have a way to put him in these different situations without throwing out continuity and rebooting the character or doing imaginary stories. As a reader I want to see how Superman learns from these experiences, so it's better to have that in continuity, whenever possible.

Of course, if they're going to tell a story about how baby Kal-El in his rocket stopped over on another planet in another universe, grew up to be a hero there and then an old man, before getting back in his rocket as a baby and continuing on toward Earth--that story should not be in continuity!

[dumbduck]

I've probably already posted on here a few times that fights are the least interesting things in comic books for me. Granted some artists get creative with fight scenes, but for the most part, as a reader, I see them as a big waste of pages. It's even worse when you have silent characters--at least when you have characters that talk-fight, other things can happen in the scene.

And the whole debate about Superman's power levels and his weaknesses is germane to fights. Which again are the least interesting thing for me. So I really don't give a flying Fig Newton--and you'd have to pay me a thousand dollars to eat a Fig Newton.

The powers and the weaknesses are two sides of the same coin and both come in handy for stories that aren't about fighting. I like a story that tells about the Man of Steel living without his super-powers, there's some non-fight character development that can happen in that scenario--and a red sun is good for that, as are various other power-robbing weaknesses. At the same time I like it when Superman's powers give him a perception of the universe that is beyond what mere mortals will ever know.

The Man of Tomorrow is a vehicle for exploring all different kinds of situations--some human, some superhuman--and it makes sense to have a way to put him in these different situations without throwing out continuity and rebooting the character or doing imaginary stories. As a reader I want to see how Superman learns from these experiences, so it's better to have that in continuity, whenever possible.

Of course, if they're going to tell a story about how baby Kal-El in his rocket stopped over on another planet in another universe, grew up to be a hero there and then an old man, before getting back in his rocket as a baby and continuing on toward Earth--that story should not be in continuity!

I've seen that story! Was it in your blog? Where's the link to your blog?




I think that... Superman fans, real Superman fans who want him to be more grounded, limited, have good intentions, but they speak of things as if happening in a perfect world for our fave character.

For example:


'Kryptonite's validity is as an immigrant metaphorical piece of his homeworld that came back to hurt him.'

'Superman should be only an average kryptonian, showing the 'democratic' side of the hero, anyone could rise to become Superman.'

'Fighting doesn't really make Superman interesting, he doesn't need to know how to fight.'


And other suggestions such as these. I know that they are well meaning.

But people who say this act as if they don't know that in the real published world things like these will just be used by the Nth Batdudebro writer to destroy Superman.

It doesn't work, people. It hasn't been working since 1986.