Five years wasted

[Clark_Kent]

Why wouldn't he? It was implied a lot of times that he has all the memories of the past continuity.

ManofSteel1979 summed it up pretty well, but I should have clarified in my post: since I am a trade-wait guy these days, I have not yet read the Rebirth Superman or Action Comics outside of the Rebirth specials and the first issue to follow in each title. So I don't know if Superman remembers that event or not. However, as MoS1979 stated, up to the moment of Flashpoint it had been retconned. If I recall, Superman even dreamed about it once after Infinite Crisis. He woke up from a nightmare and said "Lois? Have....have I killed?" Her answer: "Of course not!" (paraphrasing)

So, the Superman who appeared in Reign of Doomsday and The Black Ring (the final 2 PF stories) did not have killing Zod as part of his history. The Superman who appeared in Convergence, who I have every faith is the same guy as before Flashpoint, also did not have that history. Ergo, until they state otherwise, I will assume Rebirth Superman doesn't have the history of killing Zod & co.

Again, that event still happened, and the fallout stories as well. We remember them. Superman does not. Zero Hour, Birthright time tunnels & Alex Luthor / Superboy Prime changed history, and Superman's memories changed with them. That's how I interpret it, anyway.

[Clark_Kent]

Um, for you maybe.
To me New52 Superman is a very diferent character from emo fascist Supes.

Did you get to the end of Grounded, where his attitude was explained and how it wasn't his fault?

[t hedge coke]

I'm not so sure about the bolded. There is a definite division within the Batfandom only the focus of that division is different. Instead of fan division caused by the various "different" versions of Batman we've got a division that stems from his extended family that, in my mind anyway, almost identical to the one caused in Superman by all the reboots etc. We snipe at each other over Robins and Batgirls rather than Batman.

I think this tends to be how people view other fandoms. They're less involved in the dissension, arguments or conversations, so it seems simpler or more easily unified. But, once you're inside...

[JasonTodd428]

I think this tends to be how people view other fandoms. They're less involved in the dissension, arguments or conversations, so it seems simpler or more easily unified. But, once you're inside...

To true and I've made that mistake myself a dozen times over. The grass is always greener and all that. Frankly, no fandom is free of division.

[godisawesome]

I'm not so sure about the bolded. There is a definite division within the Batfandom only the focus of that division is different. Instead of fan division caused by the various "different" versions of Batman we've got a division that stems from his extended family that, in my mind anyway, almost identical to the one caused in Superman by all the reboots etc. We snipe at each other over Robins and Batgirls rather than Batman.

True, yet I feel you can still argue it's far less schismatic since DC has most of the characters are active in Gotham or have been recently been reworked a bit; Harper going civilian tones down her haters, Cass, Steph, Babs, and Kate are all active, and Jason, Dick, and Damian all have their own books while Tim goes through rehab with Oz. DC overall still has faith in their various properties.

In contrast, Superman has been marked by a far stronger exclusivity over the differences in interpretation. People either want a monogamous and married Superman with Lois Lane or they want a single bachelor who dates people and has relationship drama. They want a Superman who physically struggles or they want a Superman who doesn't. And since his share of DC's market has shrunk, there's less space for it, so the problem is exacerbated.

Now,I personally don't care for New 52 Superman, and in fact despise his more Silver Age traits and regard them as regressive. But, I also know that the perpetual reboots and rebranding kill the momentum of stories and portrayals that readers love. I mean, I got irritated and discouraged when they unceremoniously dumped the marriage, and others have no doubt had the same reaction to dropping it back in.

[MajorHoy]

Did you get to the end of Grounded, where his attitude was explained and how it wasn't his fault?

About the end of Grounded . . . I didn't read it in its entirety, but wasn't that story started by JMS and then he walked away from that and from Wonder Woman to do the Superman: Earth One project instead?
Do we know how much of those issues done after JMS walked were actually done based on what JMS planned to do?

[Clark_Kent]

About the end of Grounded . . . I didn't read it in its entirety, but wasn't that story started by JMS and then he walked away from that and from Wonder Woman to do the Superman: Earth One project instead?
Do we know how much of those issues done after JMS walked were actually done based on what JMS planned to do?

I'm not sure I follow...either way, the story on the page is what we go by regardless of who's idea it was or who wrote it, right?

[NexusTenebrare]

Did you get to the end of Grounded, where his attitude was explained and how it wasn't his fault?

At the time I did, but I've long forgotten how that terrible story ended.
Nor do I particularly care whatever handwavy BS they came up with to try and salvage the mess they made of him.
I didn't particularly like Superman to begin with and the way the New Krypton story ended and then the whole Grounded story made me really dislike him.
I only actually started liking Superman as a character with the New52 version. And we all know how that ended.

[t hedge coke]

I'm not sure I follow...either way, the story on the page is what we go by regardless of who's idea it was or who wrote it, right?

We can still judge each issue, individually, or one writers entire section and another writer's entire section. The fact that it was such a lengthly project, in monthly installments, alone, encourages us to judge issues by themselves as well as within the context of the larger story.

But, I'll bite. By the end, how was his repeatedly condescending and bullyish behavior explained away? Why wasn't it "his fault"?

And, having read the whole story, do you think it was worth doing a year of him being a jerk to get there?

[Clark_Kent]

We can still judge each issue, individually, or one writers entire section and another writer's entire section. The fact that it was such a lengthly project, in monthly installments, alone, encourages us to judge issues by themselves as well as within the context of the larger story.

But, I'll bite. By the end, how was his repeatedly condescending and bullyish behavior explained away? Why wasn't it "his fault"?

And, having read the whole story, do you think it was worth doing a year of him being a jerk to get there?

I don't believe I inferred that it was a good story, so I'm not sure why you asked if I think it was worth it to get there. I simply asked someone if they had read the whole thing, because the poster referred to Superman as an emo fascist twice in this thread. I thought that if the poster had perhaps not read the whole thing, he/she may be interested in knowing that there was an in-story reason for his behavior. I will agree that the basic plot - walk across America to reconnect - was flawed from the start. But his attitude during said walk had a reason. If you've read the story then you already know. It was a comination of PTSD & survivors guilt, multiplied to extremes by the sunstone crystal. That teacher was able to manipulate what Superman saw & heard.

Robinson (I think? Wasn't it Robinson who wrapped it up?) finished Grounded based off of JMS' notes. Whether the reason for the attitude was JMS' idea or Robinson's, we may never know. But in the end, it doesn't matter. Fee free to judge each issue individually, but I prefer to judge stories as a whole.

[colonyofcells]

New 52 failed to catch up to marvel so dc had to do something else. Even Rebirth is now failing to catch up to marvel so maybe DC will need more reboots.

[Carabas]

New 52 failed to catch up to marvel so dc had to do something else. Even Rebirth is now failing to catch up to marvel so maybe DC will need more reboots.

Sorry, but that's extremely revisionistic of you.

The New 52 pretty much kicked Marvel out of the top 20 for a while.

[Dataweaver]

I think it's ironic that you're condemning pre-Flashpoint Superman because of a bad story arc at the end of his run, but you're giving the N52 Superman the benefit of the doubt despite a bad story arc at the end of his run.

[RobinFan4880]

New 52 failed to catch up to marvel so dc had to do something else. Even Rebirth is now failing to catch up to marvel so maybe DC will need more reboots.

DC will never beat Marvel for long periods of time because they do not play the same games as Marvel does to artificially boost their numbers.

[MajorHoy]

I'm not sure I follow...either way, the story on the page is what we go by regardless of who's idea it was or who wrote it, right?

Well, it all depends on how you look at it.
Did the original writer plan to have the story end the way it did?
Or was it started in one way by one writer, but then somewhere before the end others realized the basic story was crap and they had to change from how it was originally suppose to wrap up to how it finally was resolved?
Was the ending we got a last minute Hail Mary tack on?