Clone Comspiracy #3 spoilers and discussion

[stillanerd]

was the word "impressions"? i thought it was "residue".

also, the peter/ock/spOck mind transfer was a completely different process, no? the rules for that wouldn't necessarily apply to new u.

"Jackal" used both terms. He called it a "psychic imprint" in ASM #20 and "psychic residue" in Clone Conspiracy #2. Basically, all he's saying is that he uploaded whatever trace elements of a person's memory were left behind after their death. Which, if you think about it, doesn't make those the actual memories/soul/consciousness of the deceased.

As for Doc Ock, that's different because he downloaded his own mind from one of his octobots directly into his own clone. If he hadn't, his clone would've had the memories and personality of Peter Parker. Basically, it's to show that, unlike the other New U clones, Doc Ock isn't considered by the others as a clone despite his body having been cloned (and, if you really want to get technical, his own mind is a digital copy of a digital copy of digital copy of his original mind).

[Webhead]

Oh come on, that stuff about Ben being the Jackal since Spider-Island is downright ridiculous.
As far as his sounding OOC goes, he's shown a sadistic streak in this event, like when he cheered for Otto killing Peter's copy in his brain -but him working with the Queen?

[boots]

Oh come on, that stuff about Ben being the Jackal since Spider-Island is downright ridiculous.
As far as his sounding OOC goes, he's shown a sadistic streak in this event, like when he cheered for Otto killing Peter's copy in his brain -but him working with the Queen?

my reading of that was that he couldn't see the actual battle? he just knew that ock was fighting to regain control of "his body".

[boots]

"Jackal" used both terms. He called it a "psychic imprint" in ASM #20 and "psychic residue" in Clone Conspiracy #2.

right, i don't have ASM 20, so all i have to go off is the main CC so far.

Basically, all he's saying is that he uploaded whatever trace elements of a person's memory were left behind after their death. Which, if you think about it, doesn't make those the actual memories/soul/consciousness of the deceased.

i'm in the camp that the character believes what s/he is saying until proven otherwise (or if the character is obviously lying to another character). i'll be interested to see if marvel does go to the lengths to explore the concept and make it a little more concrete or just leaves it as a vague hand-wave.

[Webhead]

my reading of that was that he couldn't see the actual battle? he just knew that ock was fighting to regain control of "his body".

No, he couldn't, but he congratulated Ock on "killing the heck out of it". A bit trigger-happy for this fuzzy, affectionate Jackal they're selling Ben as.
I'm jumping on the "It's totally Ben" bandwagon too early though. It's still debatable.

[boots]

No, he couldn't, but he congratulated Ock on "killing the heck out of it". A bit trigger-happy for this fuzzy, affectionate Jackal they're selling Ben as.
I'm jumping on the "It's totally Ben" bandwagon too early though. It's still debatable.

i think it's debatable as to his state of mind, if it is actually him.

when i was a kid, i wrote and posted a "return of ben reilly" story on the interwebs, where an amnesiac spidercide came back believing he was ben. everything was hunky dory with "ben's" return until spidercide's dormant psychotic urges started to resurface.

there's all sorts of ways this could go.

[nitake92]

You know, back in 1995 in Spectacular #226 where Peter was revealed to be the clone and Ben the real Peter, I got SO mad that I promised myself I would NEVER buy Spiderman again....

I broke that promise 3-4 weeks later and picked up the Maximum clonage thing.

Then comes OMD which DID turn me off for roughly 3-4 years on Spiderman. That got me EVEN madder.

I broke my promise when Slott started Spider-Island...

Then came Superior Spiderman... I was mad but ....starting to not really care anymore..and dropped the book out of plain apathy.


I picked it up during the final issues when Peter came back in what really felt like a very dissappointing way. (Ock just gave up and concede that Peter was better... Peter did nothing by himself to REALLY win back his body)And haven't REALLY kept up with the book.. (read scans + Synopsis from other people)... and decide to come back with the Clone Conspriacy

And now... the return of Ben Reilley. as a villain...
by all right I should be MAD and swear off Spiderman again.... I get the feeling.... Ehhh....Total apathy...

I think I'm completely immunized to all the "shocks" that Slott/ Marvel would throw at Spiderman to make me MAD...

I just DON'T care about what happen to Spiderman /Peter Parker anymore.... and that's a REAL tragedy...

[MarioHerald]

He doesn't "sound" anything like Ben when he speaks, and cloning seems a bit out of his field of expertise. (Didn't Marvel give us a "High Evolutionary" retcon back in the 90's to explain why a college professor like Miles Warren was able to create something so advanced? No way Ben learned THAT much from Seward Trainer.) Maybe the Jackal's brain is inside "Ben's" body because he knows it's someone Peter will trust? (Not like he hasn't duped Peter in joining him before, ala "Maximum Clonage.")

The more I think about it, the more I've convinced that this isn't actually Ben. The Jackal has not sounded anything like Ben throughout this entire story, including this issue. Plus, how would Peter teaming up with Ben bring about armageddon? And wasn't the Jackal Miles Warren on the alternate Earth Kaine was on? Something just doesn't feel right to me.

I'm going to guess it's Miles. I know I just brought up the same thing in another thread, but we have this cover.



So our two Jackals could be the Ben and Miles. So much for "updating" the Jackal, then, since this is really just an update for Ben Reilly.

According to this the Jackal in Spider-Island was also Ben Reilly. Somehow. http://comicvine.gamespot.com/spider...acter-1846276/

While it's a good theory, Ben basically debunked it when he was talking to Peter about how he remembers the feeling of melting away in Peter's arms. So unless he's lying, he was the one who died that day.

Worth noting that, given the reveal of this being Ben Reilly, we now have a bigger issue. Ben says that he did die at the end of the Clone Saga but was brought back with the method of New U. Well that being the case, who was the one who brought Ben back? Ben may be posing as the Jackal as far as the figure head position goes, but someone else has to be behind Ben.

What if all these scenes of mind-battles between Dr. Ock and Peter during Superior Spider-man and Clone Conspiracy are sort of a set up for something similar to what Vegeta here suggests:


The man in the red suit with the Anubis Mask is a clone of Ben Reilly... with the minds of the original Ben Reilly* and Miles Warren.


Scarlet Jackal.



* I'm with boots on this one, stillanerd. Until we know more about these "clones" and the process, I'm open to the idea of they being revived people.

It's too early to decry this move. Maybe Slott has something planned that will make this work. That will keep Ben from being a villain, an easily manipulated fool, or both. That won't waste the work that has gone into Kaine in the last half decade. That could finally end with all three Spider Bros fighting side by side, and not getting killed off to prop up Peter Parker, a hero who needs no propping up. But my level of concern has amped up substantially here. I sense an impending middle finger to fans of Ben, and possibly Kaine. It was always going to be dangerous to tread back into the heart of the Clone Saga in any meaningful way. I just don't see this ending well. On the other hand, great stories should make you feel a sense of tension, of stakes. Perhaps this is just the beginning of an amazing ride.

[...]


Though it's the first time I've been hyped for a Spider-Man story since Spider Island. So go Slott. I want you to stick the landing, I want you to make this work. I want to believe. Fingers crossed, hoping for the best. Because for good or ill, Ben Reilly is finally back.

If Ben does indeed survive I can see a new Scarlet Spider book launching soon afterwards. Assuming Kaine survives as well then MAYBE there'll be a Spider-Men book.

My issue now is what happens to Ben once this is over, we have 3 books with Spiderman in the title so no way he gets his own book and Kaine has no book right now.

[...]

Maybe a new Scarlet spider book? Spider men book?

I feel the appetite for a new Scarlet Spider series has grown stronger.

[asidx]

i called Ben as the Jackal way back. i mean the clues where everywhere. my guess is that the biggest twist coming up isn;t uncle ben, but instead, the death of peter. of course by the time this happens, otto has it figured out how to get around the pill thing. anna saves peter, peter has a new body, and viola we have a brand new bodies but same old spiderman.

[Orbus]

Slott ruins another character I see.

Reading the spoilers reminds me why I stopped reading the book after OMD.

God Maximum Clonage look like Shakespeare compared to this crap.

I'm not sure you can adequately make that call if you're not actually reading it.

Man I'm glad that we have Renew Your Vows since that's the only good Spider-Man book right now.

After only one issue that's a pretty bold statement and not one I'd personally agree with. It was okay but I'm not sure I'm here for the Spider-Incredibles. I'll have to give it a chance but considering the big appeal of the original Renew Your Vows series and the selling point of the ongoing was a more traditional Spider-Man book it seems somewhat antithetical to have all the Parkers as super heroes.

[DieHard200904]

Ben being brainwashed or somehow fooled would be the only way I'd find this turn of events to be even halfway acceptable.

Ben is already talking about bringing back Uncle Ben (Don't do that!) Plus the dialogue with Kaine and Anna Maria shows that the Carrion Virus is highly infectious from the New U subjects. Ben is effing nuts. If someone doesn't cure all these revived individuals, they will create a super-plague on Earth. I am pretty sure that Professor Warren is involved in this too, I would even think he is manipulating this Ben as well.

[Phantom Roxas]

Oh come on, that stuff about Ben being the Jackal since Spider-Island is downright ridiculous.
As far as his sounding OOC goes, he's shown a sadistic streak in this event, like when he cheered for Otto killing Peter's copy in his brain -but him working with the Queen?

I could see it being planned since Spider-Island, but by not wanting to show his hand so soon, the Jackal had to act closer to… well, the Jackal, not Ben Reilly pretending to the Jackal. It might have been a bit more complicated, but I thought Spider-Island's priority was, essentially, to be filler so Ends of the Earth wouldn't be rushed. I think it was something like Stephen Wacker learned about Ends of the Earth, so he wanted it sooner and make that the event that would be concurrent with Schism and Fear Itself, so Slott came up with Spider-Island so Ends of the Earth wouldn't be that. He had convinced Wacker by telling him about Superior, so Spider-Island happened when it did because Superior was planned to happen.

I do believe that Clone Conspiracy was planned during that Stunner story in Superior, since that's when Doc Ock's body went missing, but… yeah, I don't buy that the Jackal was always Ben. That just seems like something that's just said to make it sound like more details and twists of the story were "planned" for longer than it really had been.

[FF-Fighter]

Personal thoughts-

I'm still sticking with the theory that the real Ben would not have turned to dust/goop when he died as he was the perfect clone. This isn't real Ben, real Ben is either still alive or well, I dunno died for real or something. He'll come back to confront this fake guy.
Also, this explains Peter working with Miles in AMS #21. It's actually fake Ben.

[Michael Watkins]

knew it wasn't Warren.

[Prof. Warren]

I've waited 20 years for Ben to return and we finally have him back as some creepy sexual perv acting completely out of character.

This comment makes zero sense. If you read this and your take away was that Ben was a "creepy sexual perv", I think you read an issue that only exists in your imagination.

Has anyone else realized that Ben/Jackal hasn't been written as a villain in this story? So far it seems his goal has been to bring back good people and ones who died on Peter's watch. He's against killing and he has reformed the villains he brought back. Even the future outbreak is caused by a flaw in the clones rather than intent.

Exactly. It's completely valid to see his actions as heroic and well intended - or at least not villainous. It seems very plausible that Peter would collaborate with Ben at this point. At the very least, it's believable that he would entertain the possibility.

Really dug this issue. Can't wait to see what's next.