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  1. #226
    Mercenary Agent of Wolfram & Hart's Avatar
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    So is this really Ben, or just a new clone that thinks he's Ben? Just feels like a slap in the face, this new Jackal seems to be really out of character if we're supposed to believe it's Ben, to get him back but see him this way hurts, does anyone that followed him in the past really think he'd follow in Warren's footsteps after everything he put him through, the only way this'll all be worth it is if we can finally get a Ben ongoing as a hero somehow
    "The preceding announcement has been paid for by the new World order"

  2. #227
    Fantastic Member MarioHerald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent of Wolfram & Hart View Post
    So is this really Ben, or just a new clone that thinks he's Ben?
    Current possibilities are:

    1) Really Ben Reilly; he never died and has been in the shadows this whole time (he's lying about dying or someone/something is messing with his mind). (Same body, same soul).

    2) A clone that thinks he is Ben Reilly (different body, different soul).

    3) A clone that IS Ben Reilly (different body, same soul). Reanimation is a thing.

    2) Miles Warren pretending to be Ben Reilly in a clone body of Peter. (Different body, soul of Miles Warren).

    3) A copy of the mind of Miles Warren pretending to be Ben Reilly in a clone body of Peter. (Different body, different soul of a Miles Warren).

    4) A cloned body of Ben Reilly that has the minds of both Ben Reilly and Miles Warren.

    5) A cloned body that has copies of the minds of both Ben Reilly and Miles Warren.

    6) A robot or a disguise or a Peter/Ben Reilly from another universe or time.

  3. #228
    Incredible Member suemorphplus209's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent of Wolfram & Hart View Post
    So is this really Ben, or just a new clone that thinks he's Ben? Just feels like a slap in the face, this new Jackal seems to be really out of character if we're supposed to believe it's Ben, to get him back but see him this way hurts, does anyone that followed him in the past really think he'd follow in Warren's footsteps after everything he put him through, the only way this'll all be worth it is if we can finally get a Ben ongoing as a hero somehow
    I think what you are seeing is similar to what DC COmics did with the Red Hood or Jason Todd. Jason coming back as the Red Hood did not change the fact that the original red hood was The Joker. However, I fully believe that Professor Warren is still the Jackal Prime, they did the anubis in a scarlet suit to deliberately hint to you that this is Ben. However, the variant cover showing "Scarlet Jackal" fighting the classic jackal, lends credibility to my theory that Jackal Prime (Professor Warren) is truly the head of this conspiracy, and that he will show up sooner or later.
    Currently Following: Batman, Detective Comics, Dark Knight 3, Flash, Amazing Spider-Man, Multiversity, Spider-Man, X-Men

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  4. #229
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    Hey guys, I'm not gonna lie I'm three maybe even four sheets to the wind right now because the dog my wife adopted destroyed the trim and molding around an interior door in the house after destroying the back door which I replaced but she tried to destroy a second time recently. But while we wait for an animal shelter to take her before my first heart attac, I love that Ben is back.

    He is my Spider-Man like Bucky is my Cap and Red Hood is the man. Never got into Spider comics till Ben loved Kaine's Scarlet series and love Rich Rider Nova. Good on Marvel for pillaging my wallet. I think my wife hates them though. Anyway long live Ben Reilly and give me more.
    Have you pre-ordered Nova yet? I have.

  5. #230
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    I think Peter Parker that Slott is writing is a clone and the real Peter is either dead or living some other life elsewhere. I think the original Jackal will announce that in CC#5. Peter and Gwen seem to hint that in CC#3.
    Last edited by rward777; 12-11-2016 at 04:28 AM.

  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by suemorphplus209 View Post
    I think what you are seeing is similar to what DC COmics did with the Red Hood or Jason Todd. Jason coming back as the Red Hood did not change the fact that the original red hood was The Joker. However, I fully believe that Professor Warren is still the Jackal Prime, they did the anubis in a scarlet suit to deliberately hint to you that this is Ben. However, the variant cover showing "Scarlet Jackal" fighting the classic jackal, lends credibility to my theory that Jackal Prime (Professor Warren) is truly the head of this conspiracy, and that he will show up sooner or later.
    I don't see the comparison to Red Hood, when Jason returned and took the identity he didn't follow in the footsteps of the original and made the identity his own as an anti-hero, Ben's return has him as the obvious antagonist following in the original Jackal's footsteps even pretending to be the original
    "The preceding announcement has been paid for by the new World order"

  7. #232
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent of Wolfram & Hart View Post
    I don't see the comparison to Red Hood, when Jason returned and took the identity he didn't follow in the footsteps of the original and made the identity his own as an anti-hero, Ben's return has him as the obvious antagonist following in the original Jackal's footsteps even pretending to be the original
    jason's red hood was also an antagonist

    jason todd returns using a previous villain's persona and uses dodgy/illegal actions for what he believes is the greater good.

    just replace jason todd in that sentence with ben reilly.
    Last edited by boots; 12-11-2016 at 06:44 PM.
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  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    jason's red hood was also an antagonist

    jason todd returns using a previous villain's persona and uses dodgy/illegal actions for what he believes is the greater good.

    just replace jason todd in that sentence with ben reilly.
    Well, the biggest difference is that Jason Todd's return was well written. *rimshot* I kid, I kid!

    Seriously though, they aren't that similar. Jason was an obviously tragic antagonist. That story never wavered from the tragedy of Jason's fall from grace, and the pain that he was still in, even then. It was clear from the moment of the reveal right through the end of the tale. Because at a fundamental level, that story was Jason's story. It was as much about him, and his relationship to Bruce, as it was about Batman himself. We never thought Jason was mad, in the crazy sense, just angry and in pain. Even before we got to the heart of his motivations as Jason, we understood the Red Hood's motivation to clean up Gotham in a way Batman was unwilling. It all fell into place with the identity reveal, and it became increasingly clear how we got to this place. It fit with what we knew of Post-Crisis Jason Todd, and built upon some of the same ideas that had been in play before he was killed off. Yes, there was some uncertainty left at the end of that first story as to whether or not he would remain a villian, but the door was just as clearly left open for the anti-hero angle DC ended up going with (correctly, to my mind).

    This story hasn't actually laid any groundwork that makes this revelation worthwhile. We don't understand anything of the Jackal's motivations, so we can't see how a twisted version of Ben's psyche fits this character. There is no reason for Ben to have the apparent skill with cloning or reanimation or whatever that he now has that makes you go "ahh, I get what they're going for now." It's just a shocking cliffhanger for the sake of a shocking cliffhanger. Whether or not Slott can earn this reveal after the fact is now the question. Put another way, again, Under the Red Hood was a story ABOUT Jason from the very beginning, it built to the reveal and made it feel inevitable. What followed was an examination of why the reveal makes sense, and how and why it works moving forward. This story is not a story about Ben. Anybody could have been under that Jackal mask and it changes nothing thus far. Slott can still land the aftermath, and this can still go down as a classic Spidey story, I'm not prejudging. But this is absolutely not (so far) a story about Ben, or his relationship with Peter. It's an adventure set piece for Peter, and anybody could have kicked off the story in much the same way. So far, both the Jackal and "Ben" have been trappings of the story, not characters in the story. I'm hoping that changes, and that Slott has a direction for this character to go that isn't Evil or Dead, but we'll see.

  9. #234
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Well, the biggest difference is that Jason Todd's return was well written. *rimshot* I kid, I kid!

    Seriously though, they aren't that similar. Jason was an obviously tragic antagonist. That story never wavered from the tragedy of Jason's fall from grace, and the pain that he was still in, even then. It was clear from the moment of the reveal right through the end of the tale. Because at a fundamental level, that story was Jason's story. It was as much about him, and his relationship to Bruce, as it was about Batman himself. We never thought Jason was mad, in the crazy sense, just angry and in pain. Even before we got to the heart of his motivations as Jason, we understood the Red Hood's motivation to clean up Gotham in a way Batman was unwilling. It all fell into place with the identity reveal, and it became increasingly clear how we got to this place. It fit with what we knew of Post-Crisis Jason Todd, and built upon some of the same ideas that had been in play before he was killed off. Yes, there was some uncertainty left at the end of that first story as to whether or not he would remain a villian, but the door was just as clearly left open for the anti-hero angle DC ended up going with (correctly, to my mind).

    This story hasn't actually laid any groundwork that makes this revelation worthwhile. We don't understand anything of the Jackal's motivations, so we can't see how a twisted version of Ben's psyche fits this character. There is no reason for Ben to have the apparent skill with cloning or reanimation or whatever that he now has that makes you go "ahh, I get what they're going for now." It's just a shocking cliffhanger for the sake of a shocking cliffhanger. Whether or not Slott can earn this reveal after the fact is now the question. Put another way, again, Under the Red Hood was a story ABOUT Jason from the very beginning, it built to the reveal and made it feel inevitable. What followed was an examination of why the reveal makes sense, and how and why it works moving forward. This story is not a story about Ben. Anybody could have been under that Jackal mask and it changes nothing thus far. Slott can still land the aftermath, and this can still go down as a classic Spidey story, I'm not prejudging. But this is absolutely not (so far) a story about Ben, or his relationship with Peter. It's an adventure set piece for Peter, and anybody could have kicked off the story in much the same way. So far, both the Jackal and "Ben" have been trappings of the story, not characters in the story. I'm hoping that changes, and that Slott has a direction for this character to go that isn't Evil or Dead, but we'll see.
    i see where you're coming from, and i think you've expressed your points really well. makes me hope that cc will end up exploring some similar ground as far as character and motivation is concerned.

    a couple of minor points:

    1.that the jackal could be anyone. well, not really. the need to bring people back with benign intent doesn't fit any other potential jackal identity. the interesting thing here is that ben's desire to "correct mistakes" and for "no one to die" actually reflects peter's own fondest wish. but ben might be going too far to see that wish fulfilled.

    peter can reject anyone else doing this without a second thought. but ben? he would listen to ben.

    2. peter would certainly have the aptitude to work with clones if given the tech and some guidance, which "ben" presumably had from whoever brought him back. peter and ben performed their own blood tests to determine who was the clone back in the 90s saga.

    as to the depth of each story, you might have a point. we'll have to see where slott takes this and whether it is a story about ben or one that just has him in it.

    the original point however used the red hood as an example of how ben is not necessarily a villain. i think that point and the comparison (in that context) still stands.
    Last edited by boots; 12-12-2016 at 12:23 AM.
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  10. #235
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    I seem to remember Dan Slott mentioning quite a few times that fan's of Superior Spider-Man will want to check this arc out.

    We haven't seen much from Doctor Octopus yet, and practically nothing of "Superior Spider-Man". Anyone have any theories on how he will come in to play?

  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnatellodi View Post
    I seem to remember Dan Slott mentioning quite a few times that fan's of Superior Spider-Man will want to check this arc out.

    We haven't seen much from Doctor Octopus yet, and practically nothing of "Superior Spider-Man". Anyone have any theories on how he will come in to play?
    The next issue of ASM looks to be mainly about explaining how Ben became the new Jackal. For next month's issues, ASM #23 seems to be focused on Gwen, while Clone Conspiracy #4's solicit says "Doctor Octopus and the Lizard have both been on a tight leash, but decide it’s time to stop playing nice…" The event ends in February, so while neither issues for the month specifically refer to Doc Ock, I expect him to have some role in those issues.

  12. #237
    Astonishing Member DieHard200904's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suemorphplus209 View Post
    I think what you are seeing is similar to what DC COmics did with the Red Hood or Jason Todd. Jason coming back as the Red Hood did not change the fact that the original red hood was The Joker. However, I fully believe that Professor Warren is still the Jackal Prime, they did the anubis in a scarlet suit to deliberately hint to you that this is Ben. However, the variant cover showing "Scarlet Jackal" fighting the classic jackal, lends credibility to my theory that Jackal Prime (Professor Warren) is truly the head of this conspiracy, and that he will show up sooner or later.
    Well, the return of Jason as the Red Hood dug into his backstory, which, while Ben is back, they have not exactly done that yet. The story needs to go back, hopefully, to that part in Revelations and use the Spider-Man myth to explain how Ben is back, no retcon punch BS, please.

  13. #238
    Fantastic Member MarioHerald's Avatar
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    Preview of Amazing Spider-man Vol.4 #22 is out!

    http://www.newsarama.com/32411-previ...er-man-22.html

    "... twenty-seven times".


    What...?

  14. #239
    Mighty Member Webhead's Avatar
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    I'm glad Peter's rightfully beating let's-say-it's-Ben up. Is he later implying he'd do the same thing Reilly did if he had the opportunity/information, though? Or just that he recognizes his brother beneath his warped actions?

    Yeah the 27 thing was weird, I guess that's how much you have to suffer if you're a Spider-clone.

  15. #240
    Incredible Member stillanerd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarioHerald View Post
    Preview of Amazing Spider-man Vol.4 #22 is out!

    http://www.newsarama.com/32411-previ...er-man-22.html

    "... twenty-seven times".


    What...?
    Quote Originally Posted by Webhead View Post
    I'm glad Peter's rightfully beating let's-say-it's-Ben up. Is he later implying he'd do the same thing Reilly did if he had the opportunity/information, though? Or just that he recognizes his brother beneath his warped actions?

    Yeah the 27 thing was weird, I guess that's how much you have to suffer if you're a Spider-clone.
    Perhaps it's the number times the real Jackal cloned Ben Reilly until he could get him "right." In other words, after Miles Warren first clones "Ben Reilly" from his dusty remains, he then kills him twenty-seven more times, bringing him back as a clone each and every time. At least that's my guess.

    EDIT: Also, if "Ben Reilly"/AnubisJackal was repeatedly killed and cloned multiple times, it'd also explain why he's more than bit crazy with his whole New U scheme. Because I doubt him experiences that many deaths over and over helped his sanity all that much.

    Also, glad this fixes the whole "How did Peter not recognize his own clone's voice" plot hole.
    Last edited by stillanerd; 12-15-2016 at 06:11 PM.
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