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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    That's true, but again that wouldn't apply here. Peter Parker, even if he is Jewish, hasn't experienced anti-semitism growing up, nor was he persecuted or denied employment because of that fact. He was bullied as a kid for being a nerd and that's not something specific to any ethnicity. Some people do say that experiencing anti-semitism is one of the facts which define and determine a social identity of Jewishness but that wouldn't apply to Peter.

    That raises the interesting question of what would Peter's story be if he was actually a member of a minority? I mean how would that add to the story we already have? Does that mean that Peter was bullied as a kid because he was Jewish? Does that mean Flash Thompson was some kind of anti-semite who reformed? And again, it also makes Peter more like Miles Morales which is an issue because he's already stealing plenty from him in adaptations. Miles' story is all about being a minority and becoming a representative superhero for an entire society which also borrows from X-Men, "protecting a society that hates and fears them".

    In actual Marvel history, Jack Kirby was the self-identifying and religiously observant Jewish man and the one character he wrote as consistently and intentionally Jewish was Ben Grimm. And Marvel only explicitly identified Ben as Jewish around 2007. And even then the first openly Jewish superhero in American comics is Kitty Pryde created by another Jewish writer, Chris Claremont. So making Spider-Man Jewish retroactively would also be taking the thunder away from Kitty and Ben Grimm. And you know it adds to the message that we can't have a female superhero also be the first of her kind.



    Since Peter has Irish-American ancestry, wouldn't it be fitting for him to fall into Celtic pagan worship? And in any case, the discussion is mainly about Peter being ethnically Jewish, and not religiously Jewish.
    I am sure Peter had Irish History taught to him by Aunt May and Uncle Ben, so he was aware that Irish were discriminated against trust me on that. How so? At the turn of the 20th Century, there were signs on businesses that said Irish need not apply" and the British tried to take away our heritage by giving us names of colors like Black or Brown. Personally speaking, Peter Parker does not have to show his Irish Heritage and ( or) religion ( this is from someone who is Christian of Irish Hetitage). Why? He is a cultural icon and provided he is written correctly, works very well as is. I do not want to see Peter marching in the St Patrick's Day Parade, or seeing Spider-Manom tbe wall attending mass at St Patrick's Cathedral anymore then him as an atheist, or James Bond as an American.
    Last edited by NC_Yankee; 06-18-2019 at 02:48 AM.

  2. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    The Irish were discriminated against trust me on that.
    In America, that faded or diminished when Kennedy became Prez as the first Irish Catholic president. Kennedy is one of two Non-WASP Presidents (Obama being the other one). And in any case if Peter is Irish Protestant, or Scots-Irish then that's different. Protestant Irish are the majority Irish American population and they heavily assimilated into the WASP hegemony, so paradoxically most Irish-Americans don't identify socially as Irish American, they would identify as WASP. Most of Irish-American identity is Irish Catholic and Matt Murdock is Irish Catholic as is Steve Rogers. Also Bobby Drake who's both Irish-American and gay (fitting since Ireland these days have legalized same-sex marriage).

    I do not want to see Peter marching in the St Patrick's Day Parade, or attending mass at St Patrick's Cathedral anymore then him as an atheist, or James Bond as an American.
    That's fair. I tend to think that Peter's story is so personal and small-scale, dealing with moral issues on a basic level that it's not always simple to bring in say issues of ethnicity and other stuff there. Alternatively, you can argue that the reason Peter's so tunnel focused on his ethical issues and personal guilt is precisely because he's part of a WASP mainstream identity, that he takes for granted a lot of stuff and he has more space to look inward than he might have, had he come from a minority background.

    The larger issue of course is why Peter's supporting cast lacks diversity. Like how come none of his classmates and others in the university and in the Bugle are Jewish, or for that matter gay. ESU is located in Greenwich Village and Stonewall is there. But that didn't get acknowledgement in the pages. We didn't have a major gay character in Spider-Man until Max Modell.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    In America, that faded or diminished when Kennedy became Prez as the first Irish Catholic president. Kennedy is one of two Non-WASP Presidents (Obama being the other one). And in any case if Peter is Irish Protestant, or Scots-Irish then that's different. Protestant Irish are the majority Irish American population and they heavily assimilated into the WASP hegemony, so paradoxically most Irish-Americans don't identify socially as Irish American, they would identify as WASP. Most of Irish-American identity is Irish Catholic and Matt Murdock is Irish Catholic as is Steve Rogers. Also Bobby Drake who's both Irish-American and gay (fitting since Ireland these days have legalized same-sex marriage).



    That's fair. I tend to think that Peter's story is so personal and small-scale, dealing with moral issues on a basic level that it's not always simple to bring in say issues of ethnicity and other stuff there. Alternatively, you can argue that the reason Peter's so tunnel focused on his ethical issues and personal guilt is precisely because he's part of a WASP mainstream identity, that he takes for granted a lot of stuff and he has more space to look inward than he might have, had he come from a minority background.

    The larger issue of course is why Peter's supporting cast lacks diversity. Like how come none of his classmates and others in the university and in the Bugle are Jewish, or for that matter gay. ESU is located in Greenwich Village and Stonewall is there. But that didn't get acknowledgement in the pages. We didn't have a major gay character in Spider-Man until Max Modell.
    Rebuttal points: 1: Peter's guilt has nothing to do with skin take pigmentation, gender, ethnic heritage or sexuality and everything to do with Uncle Ben, Captain Stacy and Gwen and his role in their deaths. Especially when Captain Stacy's final words were "Peter take care of Gwen" and he failed. 2: You can be Christian and Irish. Ronald Reagan was Christian but still considered himself an Irishman and celebrated St Patrick's Day ( including a famous lunch in the Irish Embassy with Tip O'Neill). Personally speaking I make no appologies for being Christian, White, Straight, Conservative, male and yes, of Irish Heritage. There is nothing wrong with being those things, and those who condemn others based on those things( instead of actions) is guilty of discrimination themselves.

  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by NC_Yankee View Post
    You can be Christian and Irish.
    I was talking about Protestant and Irish. Protestants are Christian too you know. Being an Irish Protestant is distinct from being an Irish Catholic. Irish Americans from Protestant backgrounds have different experiences than those who came in from Irish Catholic backgrounds. And in Ireland, being Protestant and being Catholic evolved over time to ethnic identities rather than mainly religious ones. Even atheists would still distinguish between being raised catholic or protestant. Since Peter is Irish Protestants or as they are called in America Scots-Irish (so-called to signify their assimilation as WASPs), that means he's essentially a WASP and was raised as such. Whereas Matt Murdock has a distinct Irish Catholic identity.

    Ronald Reagan was Christian but still considered himself an Irishman and celebrated St Patrick's Day
    Which happened in the '80s. In the context of the '60s, early '60s, when JFK became President, it was seen as a huge win for the Irish Catholic community, and a major milestone in putting a Non-WASP in the white house. By the time Reagan became president it was post-Civil Rights and so on, and such issues weren't as big then.

    I mentioned Kennedy because him becoming President overlapped with the beginnings of the Marvel Revolution. At that time, all of DC's heroes were WASP -- Bruce Wayne, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Clark Kent (okay he's Kryptonian but he was raised and adopted by WASPs). Diana was maybe an exception, her being Greek and a practicing pagan. So within that context, it was pretty interesting for Stan Lee, Ditko, and Kirby to introduce characters who had some real world ethnic ties. Ben Grimm was recognizably Jewish even back then, decades before it became official. Matt Murdock was Irish American, as was Bobby Drake. Peter Parker being Irish was interesting. Of course a lot of Stan's characters were WASPs -- Reed, Sue, Johnny, Tony, Hank Pym, and of course Janet van Dyne with her last name was Old New York Dutch, most of the X-Men (it always amuses me that Marvel's most WASPy team, X-Men, became its least WASP-y team). The major ethnic identity Marvel focused on was Romani and they were mainly villainous -- Dr. Doom, Pietro, Wanda (the latter two got reformed by the end of the decade, and Doom's Romani heritage is now used to frame him sympathetically).

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    I was talking about Protestant and Irish. Protestants are Christian too you know. Being an Irish Protestant is distinct from being an Irish Catholic. Irish Americans from Protestant backgrounds have different experiences than those who came in from Irish Catholic backgrounds. And in Ireland, being Protestant and being Catholic evolved over time to ethnic identities rather than mainly religious ones. Even atheists would still distinguish between being raised catholic or protestant. Since Peter is Irish Protestants or as they are called in America Scots-Irish (so-called to signify their assimilation as WASPs), that means he's essentially a WASP and was raised as such. Whereas Matt Murdock has a distinct Irish Catholic identity.



    Which happened in the '80s. In the context of the '60s, early '60s, when JFK became President, it was seen as a huge win for the Irish Catholic community, and a major milestone in putting a Non-WASP in the white house. By the time Reagan became president it was post-Civil Rights and so on, and such issues weren't as big then.

    I mentioned Kennedy because him becoming President overlapped with the beginnings of the Marvel Revolution. At that time, all of DC's heroes were WASP -- Bruce Wayne, Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Clark Kent (okay he's Kryptonian but he was raised and adopted by WASPs). Diana was maybe an exception, her being Greek and a practicing pagan. So within that context, it was pretty interesting for Stan Lee, Ditko, and Kirby to introduce characters who had some real world ethnic ties. Ben Grimm was recognizably Jewish even back then, decades before it became official. Matt Murdock was Irish American, as was Bobby Drake. Peter Parker being Irish was interesting. Of course a lot of Stan's characters were WASPs -- Reed, Sue, Johnny, Tony, Hank Pym, and of course Janet van Dyne with her last name was Old New York Dutch, most of the X-Men (it always amuses me that Marvel's most WASPy team, X-Men, became its least WASP-y team). The major ethnic identity Marvel focused on was Romani and they were mainly villainous -- Dr. Doom, Pietro, Wanda (the latter two got reformed by the end of the decade, and Doom's Romani heritage is now used to frame him sympathetically).
    The best way to look at Peter Parker is not through the lens of his heritage or religion( or lack of), but the fact he has IT. What is IT? This cannot be defined, but you have IT or you do not have IT. This is what seperates MJ, from other Parker women. This lack of IT is why Hillary Clinton never became President. Not lust losing to Donald Trump, but Barak Obama as well, despite having the advamtage over both. Ocasio-Cortez has IT which is why I suspect one day she will be President ( and I disagree with her on every issue ( especially economics)). The IT issue( along with the supporting cast) is why Pete beats other characters who happen to be Irish like Matt Muedock or other Spider characters like Miles Morales.

  6. #81
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    There are no white Protestants in "Hollywood New York".

    I definitely feel like there are very few people in TV, movies, comics who attend religious services regularly. It's almost comical how tropish religion is in most entertainment.

  7. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    I definitely feel like there are very few people in TV, movies, comics who attend religious services regularly.
    Marvel was pretty daring when they had Matt Murdock be openly Catholic in Miller's run. Miller, like Ditko, is a Randian atheist but he felt it suited Murdock as a character to be religious. Chris Claremont likewise had Kitty Pryde and Magneto be practicing Jews.

    The thing is the fact that Marvel explored that stuff in other stories makes the fact that Spider-Man was never defined that way, all the more indicative of the fact that Peter's essentially a non-assuming Scots-Irish assimilated WASP.

  8. #83
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    I meant I don't think very many creators, writers, directors, etc. attend services regularly.

  9. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    I meant I don't think very many creators, writers, directors, etc. attend services regularly.
    Does that matter? I mean Frank Miller was an atheist and yet he went hard on Matt Murdock being a Catholic.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Does that matter? I mean Frank Miller was an atheist and yet he went hard on Matt Murdock being a Catholic.
    Something like 45% of Americans attend religious services regularly. Nowhere near that in fiction. So, yes, it matters. I think there's a disconnect between creative people and the general population on this.

    As much as I don't care for Tyler Perry, there's a reason he's so successful. There's a hunger out there in the audience for something more representative of their lived realities.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    Mate, just think of the rivalry between Sydney and Melbourne
    haha...wait that’s not real, is it?

    i’ve never heard people declare themselves for sydney pride or as a sydneyian or whatever. the mcu cap and spidey “i’m from queens -i’m from brooklyn” stuff would never happen here

    “i’m from fitzroy”

    “...so?”
    Last edited by boots; 06-18-2019 at 09:12 AM.
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  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    that’s not real, is it?

    and i’ve never heard people declare themselves for sydney pride or as a sydneyian or whatever. the mcu cap and spidey i’m from queens i’m from brooklyn stuff would never happen here

    “i’m from fitzroy”

    “...so?”
    How do your professional sports work then?

    You know, that "footy" thing I've heard about.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    How do your professional sports work then?

    You know, that "footy" thing I've heard about.
    that’s a good point

    yeah, we’re sports mad and yeah, we have clubs based in suburbs but i think that the people might associate themselves with the club before the suburb in any way that matters

    or even which footy code. whether you follow rugby league or union is probably more of interest than whether you’re from qld or vic

    not that areas aren’t distinct and that there aren’t prejudices associated with them...it’s just more generalised. i mean, our accent is almost the same all over the country

    even this irish heritage stuff isn’t really a big deal here, and i say that as an aussie of irish descent.
    troo fan or death

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    thatÂ’s a good point

    yeah, weÂ’re sports mad and yeah, we have clubs based in suburbs but i think that the people might associate themselves with the club before the suburb in any way that matters

    or even which footy code. whether you follow rugby league or union is probably more of interest than whether youÂ’re from qld or vic

    not that areas arenÂ’t distinct and that there arenÂ’t prejudices associated with them...itÂ’s just more generalised. i mean, our accent is almost the same all over the country

    even this irish heritage stuff isnÂ’t really a big deal here, and i say that as an aussie of irish descent.
    Let me say most people who are not from New York do not understand us. Even in Spider-Man where Pete's religion is no big deal, sports teams allegiance matters. How? Pete and MJ got married in Shea Stadium ( so obviously Pete or MJ (or both) are Met fans). Very few people are politically correct and say they root for both teams. In 1986, I actually rooted for the Boston Red Sox ( mortal enemy of the Yankees) over the Mets. Why? I am a Yankee fan who lived in Howard Beach Queens surrounded by Met fans, and I got teased but good. I have been gone from NY for 5 years and every year I get MLB Extra Innings for my Yankees, and for the first time failed to get NHL Center Ice for my NY Islanders and was miserable. Next season, I am spending the $180 to get the games. People here in Hendersonville, NC like (Mesa, Arizona where I also lived) do not understand the passion that New Yorkers have for our teams. Ps. I bet Pete and ( or) MJ like the Yankees ( and Philadelphia Phillies) like they are Norman Osborn : Not at all.
    Last edited by NC_Yankee; 06-18-2019 at 10:32 AM.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    yeah, we’re sports mad and yeah, we have clubs based in suburbs but i think that the people might associate themselves with the club before the suburb in any way that matters
    Brooklyn and Queens aren't suburbs.

    New York is an odd duck. New York City was just Manhattan until the late 19the century when the other boroughs were incorporated into it (or whatever the proper term is). Before that, Brooklyn was a separate city. This is why the Dodgers were the Brooklyn Dodgers, and not the New York Dodgers, since the formation of the team predates this.

    It gets weirder. Brooklyn and Queens are geographically part of Long Island, but "Long Island" almost always refers to the two suburban counties on the island east of Queens.

    I'm sure there's some rich story about how this history helped form the personalities of these areas, but I don't know it.

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