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  1. #106
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    i was only using suburbs in ref to oz, cos that’s our common geographical distinction here
    Ah, ok. Having spent time in other parts of the US, I've found that people are familiar with the terms and names of places in the New York Metro area due to media saturation, but all of that media saturation seems to assume people understand what everyone is talking about, and I've been informed on a number of occasions that they don't.

  2. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    I think it's a Silver Age comic and they only had a few pages to tell the story.
    Will Eisner had fewer and his stories have more meat than a lot of 100 page graphic novels.

    They were just trying to show that the average person would - and if we're honest, we know they're right - try to cash in on powers if they got them, not go fight crime.
    If we consider AF#15, Peter's shown as a science genius, praised by his professors for that, and we see him build the webshooters and outfit (which makes me irritated these days since we live in the age of "Poor people can't make stuff" as in the MCU where Tony gives Peter all this), he's gifted a microscope by Uncle Ben.

    That's not exactly average. Peter's decision to court fame on top of that, to essentially betray his intellectual curiosity in the pursuit of the good life, is a specific character trait unique to him, and not easily explained by him being a nerd or being an "average guy".

    And yeah, Ditko era Peter was kind of a dick, but that kind of character is more a reaction to how he would have been treated in that period. The resentment was less imagined than it would be today.
    Ditko Peter wasn't especially Jerkish compared to other characters in comics of that time (see Reed), and he's less Jerkish than other characters in those stories. I mean in the Lee-Ditko period, aside from Aunt May, everyone's a jerk.

  3. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Let me rephrase that. I meant that you could see Peter's actions in AF#15 before Ben's death as an example of a kid raised to expect a certain kind of white male entitlement. Which is something people have commented on about the geek crowd, the incel crowd, and others. But it's a kind of thing that crosses over multiple kinds of people. You know adolescent male fantasy and all.

    People have said that Peter's actions are proto-school shooter based on the inaccurate assumption that most school shooters tend to be bullied kids (empirically speaking that's not true and that's a major misconception people involved in working with kids and others are shutting down). But it would be accurate to say that Peter in that age has a certain white male entitlement. He expects the attentions and affections of the popular hot girl, he wants to 'show them' and for all of his love of science, Peter's first instinct on finding out about his powers isn't, "Gotta find me a lab to study by groundbreaking biophysical transformation", it's "hot damn!, fame and fortune for me". Peter's first instinct is to be famous and become a Proto-Justin Bieber. So there's a baggage in Peter of wanting fame, of success being something due to him, where success is also equal to getting even.

    That might be one example of how Peter's actions are framed by his identity of being a bland white dude. That he expects a certain kind of privilege or fame due to him. And white privilege does cross class and economic lines. Even poor whites feel a sense of white privilege and so on. Historically, that was targeted by the South, you know the "mudsill" and all that. And only later does Peter realize the responsibility thing, and with that he kind of lets go of that sense of privilege and entitlement. Remember that Stan Lee and Steve Ditko were both 40s people writing about post-war American teenagers. They grew up in the Depression so it might be a generational issue for them in showing Peter, this post-war teenage hero essentially have a pre-war depression era mindset about family responsibility and working. It might be also be their judgment about post-war kids being too spoiled and too consumerist, which many comics writers at that time felt, notably Harvey Kurtzman who had a big influence on Lee.

    So in a sense Peter's a Jewish portrayal of a WASP or a Scots-Irish WASP. It's basically a Jewish guy taking a WASP kid and bringing into his head the consequences of his actions and giving him the sense of guilt, angst, and filial obligation that WASPs are culturally enabled to take for granted. It's about an insider kid becoming the embodiment and champion of the outsider.
    A desire for fame and fortune is hardly limited to white males, though. Wanting the hot popular girl doesn't have anything to do with race or privilege.

  4. #109
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Will Eisner had fewer and his stories have more meat than a lot of 100 page graphic novels.



    If we consider AF#15, Peter's shown as a science genius, praised by his professors for that, and we see him build the webshooters and outfit (which makes me irritated these days since we live in the age of "Poor people can't make stuff" as in the MCU where Tony gives Peter all this), he's gifted a microscope by Uncle Ben.

    That's not exactly average. Peter's decision to court fame on top of that, to essentially betray his intellectual curiosity in the pursuit of the good life, is a specific character trait unique to him, and not easily explained by him being a nerd or being an "average guy". .
    That's an issue of the parameters of "average". We could reason away the very concept if we like.

    As far as betraying his intellectual curiosity. Marlon Wayans has a genius IQ. I mean, one thing has nothing to do with the other.

  5. #110
    Formerly Assassin Spider Huntsman Spider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Revolutionary_Jack View Post
    Will Eisner had fewer and his stories have more meat than a lot of 100 page graphic novels.



    If we consider AF#15, Peter's shown as a science genius, praised by his professors for that, and we see him build the webshooters and outfit (which makes me irritated these days since we live in the age of "Poor people can't make stuff" as in the MCU where Tony gives Peter all this), he's gifted a microscope by Uncle Ben.

    That's not exactly average. Peter's decision to court fame on top of that, to essentially betray his intellectual curiosity in the pursuit of the good life, is a specific character trait unique to him, and not easily explained by him being a nerd or being an "average guy".



    Ditko Peter wasn't especially Jerkish compared to other characters in comics of that time (see Reed), and he's less Jerkish than other characters in those stories. I mean in the Lee-Ditko period, aside from Aunt May, everyone's a jerk.
    To be slightly fair to MCU Peter, he still made his own web-shooters and web-fluid, using a high school chemistry lab's resources for the latter, no less. That said, I do agree with your overall points critiquing Peter's/Spider-Man's early character in relation to a larger sociocultural context.
    The spider is always on the hunt.

  6. #111
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    haha...wait that’s not real, is it?
    It so is

    mostly because Sydney sucks ass
    ♪ღ♪*•.¸¸¸.•*¨ ¨*•.¸¸¸.•*•♪ღ♪¸.•*¨ ¨*•.¸¸¸.•*•♪ღ♪•*

    ♪ღ♪░M░E░P░H░I░S░T░O░ W░A░S░ R░I░G░H░T░♪ღ♪

    *•♪ღ♪*•.¸¸¸.•*¨ ¨*•.¸¸¸.•*•♪¸.•*¨ ¨*•.¸¸¸.•*•♪ღ♪•«

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    i'd bet that even in more homogeneous countries that things like favouritism, nepotism, classism etc all influence hiring




    awesome. i'll bet alot of them still don't get it though



    hopefully all that is a bridging stage. i mean, a lot of it doesn't click when you really put it under a microscope. i belong to a few minority group discussion pages and there's often debate on what identity means within those groups.



    i honestly don't know either. maybe we're discovering that it doesn't exist

    on a wider point, even peter being a "nerd" would have different take in today's climate.
    Oh yeah I totally agree that favortism and nepotism and connections all play a huge role in hiring, even if the more identity based ism's aren't as much of a factor. None of this is ever going away totally but if we can get the institutionalized aspects lessened considerably that would be a great start. ....unless we need to focus on lessening it in individuals first, and then those institutions will be inhabited by better people, and will then become better as a result...? I don't know, that's way too deep of a question to tackle here... Dr. Octopus could beat up the Rhino, that much we know for certain, at least.

    I hope and think it's a bridging stage, also. I mean saying "I'm an Irish- Kenyan cis-gender poly amorous antifa pro-lifer Buddhist proto-Marxist who's all about unity" is true for someone but it's also one of those things that can also give you the "doing math in my head" face. Defining ourselves in more specific terms while trying to treat other hyper-defined individuals the same is a relatively new (or at least more pronounced and complex) thing and we're all trying to figure it out together imo. Bridging stage is a good term and I'm definitely stealing it.

    I don't think you could even call Peter a nerd if he were introduced today. I mean he's nerdy like the twitch gaming streamers/softcore erotica super-hot-nerd folks? Nerdy like the popular kids who grew up and got Harry Potter tattoos? Nerdy like ErinPlays on YouTube? Nerdy like Donald Glover or Kid Cudi? The definition has COMPLETELY changed since Peter was introduced.

  8. #113
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    It so is

    mostly because Sydney sucks ass
    baha

    there's a sydney joke that goes "we didn't know about this melbourne/sydney rivalry until someone from melbourne told us"
    troo fan or death

  9. #114
    Mighty Member Zeitgeist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    baha

    there's a sydney joke that goes "we didn't know about this melbourne/sydney rivalry until someone from melbourne told us"
    typical sydney bullsh
    ♪ღ♪*•.¸¸¸.•*¨ ¨*•.¸¸¸.•*•♪ღ♪¸.•*¨ ¨*•.¸¸¸.•*•♪ღ♪•*

    ♪ღ♪░M░E░P░H░I░S░T░O░ W░A░S░ R░I░G░H░T░♪ღ♪

    *•♪ღ♪*•.¸¸¸.•*¨ ¨*•.¸¸¸.•*•♪¸.•*¨ ¨*•.¸¸¸.•*•♪ღ♪•«

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by boots View Post
    baha

    there's a sydney joke that goes "we didn't know about this melbourne/sydney rivalry until someone from melbourne told us"
    Well, a hammer isn't really in a rivalry with nails.

    JK I have no idea what you're talking about, I just wanted to jump in. Football? Rugby?

  11. #116
    Astonishing Member Tuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    Well, a hammer isn't really in a rivalry with nails.

    JK I have no idea what you're talking about, I just wanted to jump in. Football? Rugby?
    Canasta, I believe.

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tuck View Post
    Canasta, I believe.
    Don't try to put one over on me, friend.
    I looked it up, it's a rivalry based on Mario Kart.

  13. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zeitgeist View Post
    It so is

    mostly because Sydney sucks ass
    Yikes!! Holy elitism batman!
    The city I once knew as home is teetering on the edge of radioactive oblivion

  14. #119
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderfang View Post
    Yikes!! Holy elitism batman!
    the dirty melbournite is kidding


    i think
    troo fan or death

  15. #120
    Astonishing Member boots's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel22 View Post
    Well, a hammer isn't really in a rivalry with nails.

    JK I have no idea what you're talking about, I just wanted to jump in. Football? Rugby?
    it’s “footy”. as it has been since the dawn of time
    troo fan or death

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