Is Homecoming ripping off Miles Morales?

[Somecrazyaussie]

Oh, yes. Because the general public definitely knew what the hell a Scott Lang (Ant Man) was before he had a movie. And Iron Man was TOTES as recognizable a property as Spider Man and the X-Men before the MCU. This is such a silly argument that people always seem to trot out in order to justify excluding characters they don't like. Or in this case, denying the positive impact of diversity in movies. Before he started appearing in the MCU, I'm willing to bet that most of the movie-going public didn't know who the hell Black Panther was. Same with a lot of the MCU characters. Because the vast majority of people who watch movies are not comic book readers. It doesn't stop them from being smash hits at the box office though. And one of the big draws for BP was the Afrofuturism as well as the promise of something different. If you think that had nothing to do with its success, you are just plain wrong.

Nothing wrong with bringing Miles into the MCU. But people are rushing it to happen like yesterday. For me, Peter Parker is Spider-Man. He is as famous as Bruce Wayne as Batman or Clark Kent as Superman. We have the perfect blend of Peter/Spidey in Holland and he is still young enough to stay in the MCU for a longtime yet. Once Holland steps out, that is the perfect time to bring Miles in. It is detrimental to both if you have them running around at the same time. Let Peter shine, then let Miles shine when he takes the spotlight.

[Alan2099]

Oh, yes. Because the general public definitely knew what the hell a Scott Lang (Ant Man) was before he had a movie. And Iron Man was TOTES as recognizable a property as Spider Man and the X-Men before the MCU. This is such a silly argument that people always seem to trot out in order to justify excluding characters they don't like. Or in this case, denying the positive impact of diversity in movies. Before he started appearing in the MCU, I'm willing to bet that most of the movie-going public didn't know who the hell Black Panther was. Same with a lot of the MCU characters. Because the vast majority of people who watch movies are not comic book readers. It doesn't stop them from being smash hits at the box office though. And one of the big draws for BP was the Afrofuturism as well as the promise of something different. If you think that had nothing to do with its success, you are just plain wrong.

Your argument is that people didn't know who these other characters were before they appeared in movies doesn't work here. Spider-man is one of the most recognizable heroes on the planet.

Miles isn't the Black Panther. He's not Ironman. Mile's biggest problem is that he's not even Spider-man. He's that other Spider-man. Or the replacement Spider-man.

If you make a Spider-man movie and it features some other guy that isn't the Real Spider-man, there's going to be some kickback against it. That's not even getting into the race issue.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

We have the perfect blend of Peter/Spidey in Holland...

Thor is he though.jpg

For me, Peter Parker is Spider-Man. He is as famous as Bruce Wayne as Batman or Clark Kent as Superman.

It's kind of moot.

Spider-Man's daily bread is toys, merchandising, stickers, logos, and so on. What's featured there is Spider-Man and not Peter Parker. It's Spider-Man's float on Macy's Thanksgiving Parade not Peter Parker's.

In other words, people across the world -- children, toddlers, babies and others -- the kind too small to see or understand and follow even something like MCU Spider-Man....they all know who Spider-Man is well before they know he's Peter Parker.

I am not saying that introducing Miles as Spider-Man in the MCU would have worked because the audience the MCU movies target is not in fact the primary consumers of Spider-Man, and it's largely a section of the fanbase that knows about the MCU stuff and buy-into the oligarchical propganda, intentionally or unintentionally.

If Disney/Sony committed to it, they could have gotten Miles over as the main Spider-Man in the MCU, is what I'm saying.

[Frontier]

It's kind of moot.

Spider-Man's daily bread is toys, merchandising, stickers, logos, and so on. What's featured there is Spider-Man and not Peter Parker. It's Spider-Man's float on Macy's Thanksgiving Parade not Peter Parker's.

In other words, people across the world -- children, toddlers, babies and others -- the kind too small to see or understand and follow even something like MCU Spider-Man....they all know who Spider-Man is well before they know he's Peter Parker.

I am not saying that introducing Miles as Spider-Man in the MCU would have worked because the audience the MCU movies target is not in fact the primary consumers of Spider-Man, and it's largely a section of the fanbase that knows about the MCU stuff and buy-into the oligarchical propganda, intentionally or unintentionally.

If Disney/Sony committed to it, they could have gotten Miles over as the main Spider-Man in the MCU, is what I'm saying.

If it's the red and blue suit, it's Peter.

[Somecrazyaussie]

Thor is he though.jpg



It's kind of moot.

Spider-Man's daily bread is toys, merchandising, stickers, logos, and so on. What's featured there is Spider-Man and not Peter Parker. It's Spider-Man's float on Macy's Thanksgiving Parade not Peter Parker's.

In other words, people across the world -- children, toddlers, babies and others -- the kind too small to see or understand and follow even something like MCU Spider-Man....they all know who Spider-Man is well before they know he's Peter Parker.

I am not saying that introducing Miles as Spider-Man in the MCU would have worked because the audience the MCU movies target is not in fact the primary consumers of Spider-Man, and it's largely a section of the fanbase that knows about the MCU stuff and buy-into the oligarchical propganda, intentionally or unintentionally.

If Disney/Sony committed to it, they could have gotten Miles over as the main Spider-Man in the MCU, is what I'm saying.

Yeah, but people still know who he is underneath. Same with Batman and Superman.

They absolutely could have gotten Miles over. But, yet again, they went with Peter (after having two bites of the cherry previously). Miles works because he serves the function Peter did when he started. I think Miles is a great character. But he will never be the default Spider-man. He will always be the guy who takes up afterwards. Nothing wrong with that. I just want him introduced when he doesn't have to contend with a youthful Peter.

As for Holland? He certainly has the potential to pull it off. We see flashes of it here and there. The problem is that they keep tying him to Iron Man. So he comes off as some goofy sidekick.

Garfield had the best delivery of the Spidey lines when he was in costume. Tobey, for me anyway, was effortless as Peter. He just pulled it off with his mannerism and his expressions. But, if we are going for my personal best Spidey performance from actor from live action or animation? It's Barnes hands down. His voice is the Peter I hear when I read Amazing. Have done since I first watched Spider-man 1994 as a wide eye kid every Saturday morning. Likewise Conroy for Batman (although not so much with the lovey-feely Batman in the comics over there at the moment.

[katie_girl09]

Your argument is that people didn't know who these other characters were before they appeared in movies doesn't work here. Spider-man is one of the most recognizable heroes on the planet.

Miles isn't the Black Panther. He's not Ironman. Mile's biggest problem is that he's not even Spider-man. He's that other Spider-man. Or the replacement Spider-man.

If you make a Spider-man movie and it features some other guy that isn't the Real Spider-man, there's going to be some kickback against it.

You are making a distinction without a difference. At the end of the day, it is still a character they are unfamiliar with that the MCU would endear them to, just like all of the other characters who didn't have a huge following beforehand. Miles Morales is obviously not Peter Parker. But he is still Spider-Man when he dons the suit. Like, we comic nerds really need to realize that the vast majority of the people who see these movies are not uber-devotees and do not have the same emotional attachment to these characters that we do. Sure, a lot of people know Peter Parker is Spider Man. But do you really think they would be up in arms if Spiderman were someone else in the MCU? Enough to affect the bottom line? Doubtful. They're there for the action and cool scenes. They literally just want to be entertained. Give them a good story with some cool action, make Miles likeable, and they won't give a damn that Spider-Man is someone else so long as there is a Spider-Man. If you're particularly insecure, give them an AU explanation. Worked for Spiderverse. There are so many narrative choices that could easily and comfortably explain why Miles Morales is Spider-Man to the target demographic.

If the rumours are true (and I think they are based on Sony's essentially turning Peter into Miles) Kevin Feige saw value in using Miles Morales too. And that man seems to know his stuff.

That's not even getting into the race issue.

Because racism and white supremacy are real in this world, of course some people would be upset by the race change. However, if it is explained well and/or the character is interesting, most people are not going to care. The recent Johnny Storm was Michael B. Jordan. The only people I saw complaining about that were (usually) racist comic book fanboys. The general public (which likes Michael B. Jordan) simply didn't care. That movie failed because it was a terrible movie with poor marketing. It had nothing to do with his casting.

[katie_girl09]

If Disney/Sony committed to it, they could have gotten Miles over as the main Spider-Man in the MCU, is what I'm saying.

That's really the bottom line.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

That's really the bottom line.

If you look at superhero movies,
-- Hulk is a character who got two failed and underperforming features (Ang Lee Hulk, Norton Hulk) and he still got to be in the Avengers.
-- Hal Jordan failed as Green Lantern in his big movie and yet he's still prepped and standing in wait to be the main GL in movies.
-- Wolverine's first solo movie was a disaster, with a terrible first introduction of Deadpool. He still got a trilogy. And Deadpool still got a second chance.

Basically if you are a white superhero character, and have a white leading man backing it, you get a lot more second and third and fourth chances. But if you are a female superhero, a POC, or a non-white legacy...you wait for your chance for a long time. And if you blow that chance, you don't get as many call backs.

I mean take Jennifer Garner's Elektra or the Halle Berry Catwoman. Both are bad films and terrible movies, but it's a fact that the failure of those movies setback a female superhero movie from headling the marquee for a decade plus. Whereas Hulk, Punisher, Daredevil, even the friggin' Fantastic Four can fail and stumble once, twice, and still get a second or thrid chance.

That's why "voting with your wallet" or the audience wants it, or audience knows is and always will be BS excuses. The producers and powers-to-be will always give some more second chances than others.

[katie_girl09]

^Alladat. Spot. Freaking. On.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

About Peter Parker being the Spider-Man, yes and no.

I think Jack has a point that the name "Peter Parker" isn't that important when we look at the bigger picture. Spider-Man is masked all the time and most kids like him before they even know his name.

That said, almost everyone associates Spider-Man with Peter Parker The Archetype - that is, the idea that Spider-Man is a poor nerdy everyman kid that wears primary colors, quips while in costume, and quotes WGPCGR. You don't have to know the name Peter Parker or even to think of him as "white", but you're essentially thinking of Peter Parker.

In that sense, I will be very surprised if Peter Parker will ever be dethroned as the "main" Spider-Man. I think we can get to a point where he is public domain and everyone can interpret his name and race in whichever way they want (kinda like how every culture views Jesus in their own image), but I don't know if Miles can pull a Wally West or Jamie Reyes and become the "main" Spider-Man. I think the difference between Peter Parker and Hal Jordan, or Barry Allen, or Ted Kord is that Peter Parker's story is too primal.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

About Peter Parker being the Spider-Man, yes and no.

I think Jack has a point that the name "Peter Parker" isn't that important when we look at the bigger picture. Spider-Man is masked all the time and most kids like him before they even know his name.

Empirically and anecdotally, i.e. from my personal experience, the fact that Spider-Man was Peter Parker, or for that matter his origin. That didn't enter popular culture in a big way until the Raimi Trilogy. I was the only nerd I knew growing up, and while people who knew Clark was Superman and Batman was Bruce and Robin was Dick Grayson...nobody knew the same detail about Spider-Man. What people knew was the Spider-Man song from the TV Show (which doesn't mention the name of the identity or anything of the origin in the lyrics). I mean people thought that Spider-Man and Batman and Superman were somehow friends or cousins (the joke was that the "man" suffix was some kind of surname...like the director Michael Mann) and it took till the MCU for the concept of a comic book universe and for that matter the rights issues and so on to really become common knowledge.

So that shows that a successful movie adaptation can put someone or something over.

The main reason Superman and Batman are so proverbial isn't the comics, it's the fact that from the beginning they were adapted, repeatedly and regularly into other mediums. Superman had the radio show in the '40s, the Fleischer cartoons (which introduced "is it a bird...is it a plane"), the George Reeves TV show and then the Reeve movie. Batman had some serials in the '40s, then the Adam West TV Show of the '60s, and then the Burton movie. Both of them also appeared in Superfriends and made cameo appearances in Hanna Barbara cartoons teaming up with Scooby Doo and so on. So if you do a big push for Miles, there's no reason he can't eventually reach the prominence that Peter has. The Batman Beyond show was quite successful and convinced many kids that some OC created for the show was Batman.

In that sense, I will be very surprised if Peter Parker will ever be dethroned as the "main" Spider-Man. I think we can get to a point where he is public domain and everyone can interpret his name and race in whichever way they want (kinda like how every culture views Jesus in their own image), but I don't know if Miles can pull a Wally West or Jamie Reyes and become the "main" Spider-Man. I think the difference between Peter Parker and Hal Jordan, or Barry Allen, or Ted Kord is that Peter Parker's story is too primal.

Miles isn't even 10 years old publication-wise, and in a short while, he on his own has become far more prominent and famous than Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Ted Kord in all their decades. Far more people will know who Miles is then they will about Green Lantern mythos. He's achieved a level of success and public fame that no legacy character has. Since his debut in Ultimate Fallout #1 there's not been one cartoon where there's been no Miles. Even the Tom Holland movie had to allude and refer to Miles in addition to making him a whiteboy Miles.

Miles has had more success and fame as Spider-Man than Dick Grayson has had as Batman, than Terry McGinnis, than Azrael. In fact the evidence is pointing to a diminution of Peter in the Spider-Man mythos in the last 10 years.

The big story in the Franchise in the last decade is that Peter is not the only Spider-Man. That's now gone over to the public. The biggest new characters in Spider-Mythos have been AU-imports like Miles and Spider-Gwen (well to the extent an AU of a 616 supporting qualifies as new). The storyline in 616 Spider-Man that got most press was one where a villain became Spider-Man for more than a single real-time year.

Of course fame is fickle and fleeting so who knows if this trend will hold but it's really striking to consider.

Right now the one new Spider-Man game on the Playstation 5 features Miles Morales as playable. For a good chunk of consumers, the Playstation 5 is going to be their first console and it will be likely that Miles is their introduction to Spider-Man since it's a launch title. So think on that.

[Frontier]

At the end of the day if you're going for the first Spider-Man in a setting that relatively reflects the main comic continuity to some extent as far as main characters to some extent and involve most of the old mainstays, it makes sense to use Peter Parker. Otherwise we'd be seeing Miles interact with characters more closely associated with Peter or redoing Peter storylines.

Anything else I blame on Watts reading too much Ultimate Spider-Man and MCU Peter getting dragged wherever the movies need to drag him towards.

[Revolutionary_Jack]

Anything else I blame on Watts reading too much Ultimate Spider-Man and MCU Peter getting dragged wherever the movies need to drag him towards.

Spider-Man was created to be a character that grows up and ages and not remain a teenager over. An adult Spider-Man can be timeless, classical, transcendent but if you want to make Peter into some eternal teenage hero and still keep him roughly how he was introduced (i.e. working class white Queens) then you are going to reach a point where Peter will suck the blood of teenage characters created to be more contemporary and up to date than he was.

Peter was never created to be a realistic portrayal of teenage life. Go back to the '60s, Ditko and Lee based Peter on their high-school memories in the late 30s or early 40s and Ditko modeled Midtown High on the architecture of his Pennsylania high school. Bendis when he wrote Ultimate Spider-Man based Spider-Man on the high school in Portland where his wife taught (which sorta explains the permanent '90s vibe of the USM comics and also it's overall whiteness). The first Spider-Man to be created as a true reflection of a teenage superhero is Miles and not Peter.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Empirically and anecdotally, i.e. from my personal experience, the fact that Spider-Man was Peter Parker, or for that matter his origin. That didn't enter popular culture in a big way until the Raimi Trilogy. I was the only nerd I knew growing up, and while people who knew Clark was Superman and Batman was Bruce and Robin was Dick Grayson...nobody knew the same detail about Spider-Man. What people knew was the Spider-Man song from the TV Show (which doesn't mention the name of the identity or anything of the origin in the lyrics). I mean people thought that Spider-Man and Batman and Superman were somehow friends or cousins (the joke was that the "man" suffix was some kind of surname...like the director Michael Mann) and it took till the MCU for the concept of a comic book universe and for that matter the rights issues and so on to really become common knowledge.

So that shows that a successful movie adaptation can put someone or something over.

The main reason Superman and Batman are so proverbial isn't the comics, it's the fact that from the beginning they were adapted, repeatedly and regularly into other mediums. Superman had the radio show in the '40s, the Fleischer cartoons (which introduced "is it a bird...is it a plane"), the George Reeves TV show and then the Reeve movie. Batman had some serials in the '40s, then the Adam West TV Show of the '60s, and then the Burton movie. Both of them also appeared in Superfriends and made cameo appearances in Hanna Barbara cartoons teaming up with Scooby Doo and so on. So if you do a big push for Miles, there's no reason he can't eventually reach the prominence that Peter has. The Batman Beyond show was quite successful and convinced many kids that some OC created for the show was Batman.



Miles isn't even 10 years old publication-wise, and in a short while, he on his own has become far more prominent and famous than Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Ted Kord in all their decades. Far more people will know who Miles is then they will about Green Lantern mythos. He's achieved a level of success and public fame that no legacy character has. Since his debut in Ultimate Fallout #1 there's not been one cartoon where there's been no Miles. Even the Tom Holland movie had to allude and refer to Miles in addition to making him a whiteboy Miles.

Miles has had more success and fame as Spider-Man than Dick Grayson has had as Batman, than Terry McGinnis, than Azrael. In fact the evidence is pointing to a diminution of Peter in the Spider-Man mythos in the last 10 years.

The big story in the Franchise in the last decade is that Peter is not the only Spider-Man. That's now gone over to the public. The biggest new characters in Spider-Mythos have been AU-imports like Miles and Spider-Gwen (well to the extent an AU of a 616 supporting qualifies as new). The storyline in 616 Spider-Man that got most press was one where a villain became Spider-Man for more than a single real-time year.

Of course fame is fickle and fleeting so who knows if this trend will hold but it's really striking to consider.

Right now the one new Spider-Man game on the Playstation 5 features Miles Morales as playable. For a good chunk of consumers, the Playstation 5 is going to be their first console and it will be likely that Miles is their introduction to Spider-Man since it's a launch title. So think on that.

I mentioned in previous threads that Miles and other Spider-Characters catching up the way they did in just 10 years is genuinely impressive. That shouldn't be taken for granted, and in Marvel's defense it shows they genuinely put some decent effort into promoting Miles when compared to how DC handled their legacy characters.

Still, the day other Spider-Characters fully catch up to Peter is arguably still way off. Just to illustrate an example (and I'm not saying this is a good thing), Miles' comic and video game is still titled Spider-Man: Miles Morales, while Peter's comics and games are always titled Spider-Man or The Amazing Spider-Man. That shows the culture still perceives Peter as Spider-Man while Miles is a Spider-Man. (On top of that, the PS5 game includes the remastered version of the first game and Peter is still in Miles' game briefly).

I think we can get to a point where all the Spider-Characters are treated as a more egalitarian version of the Green Lantern Corps, but even then I imagine Peter would still be hyped as the OG, or "the Spider-Man who started it all", or "the best of us" as Spider-Gwen called him recently. As long as language like that is included, I don't know if the gap can 100% be closed (which isn't to say it shouldn't be closed as much as possible).

I think it has to do with human nature. From an evolutionary perspective, things like lacking resources and companions and being picked on by the bigger predator go deep into our psyche. They're arguably the most primal and instinctive fears a mammal can have. It's for the same reason why Bruce Wayne will probably always stay the main Batman. As interesting as Dick Grayson and Terry Mcginnis can be, nothing cuts as deep into our psyche as the idea of a helpless child losing his parents in a bloody way to an organism in the dark.

[Alan2099]

Peter was never created to be a realistic portrayal of teenage life. Go back to the '60s, Ditko and Lee based Peter on their high-school memories in the late 30s or early 40s and Ditko modeled Midtown High on the architecture of his Pennsylania high school. Bendis when he wrote Ultimate Spider-Man based Spider-Man on the high school in Portland where his wife taught (which sorta explains the permanent '90s vibe of the USM comics and also it's overall whiteness). The first Spider-Man to be created as a true reflection of a teenage superhero is Miles and not Peter.

I feel you're contradicting yourself here. You talk about how he's based on high school memories and actual schools, then you claim he's not supposed to represent the very thing you just said he's based on.

You even criticize the guy who wrote Ultimate Spider-man and then turn right around and credit Miles who was created and starred in the book by the exact same writer you were just blaming.