Ereshigal - discussion

[zerodemon]

Hi guys.

So, I'm currently putting together my ideas on the nature of Ereshigal, and its relationship with the Ogdru Jahad, Hecate, and The Black Flame. As I amble through the entire run looking for evidence and references to back up my more spurious claims, I have come across a bunch of interesting mentions, the first and most influential of which is right there at the start in Seed of Destruction; when Rasputin refers to the Ogdru Jahad as the "Throne Bearers of Ereshigal."

When I first read that line, I mostly allowed it to wash over me, but with recent events in B.P.R.D I have come to believe that the act committed by Johann in the final issue of Hell on Earth was possibly the most terrible mistake he could've made.

Let me elaborate on my current line of thinking. Anum and the watchers create the Ogdru Jahad, but they are lifeless. During the night, Ereshigal breathes life into them, gifting them with sentience, power, and the ability to do that which life does; procreate. The Ogdru Hem are created, and the Watchers flip out. Ten-thousand years of war, Anum imprisons the Ogdru Jahad, yadda yadda.

But when they are imprisoned, they take this power with them, but the echoes of that power are already there in the world. From this essence and influence, all life as we know it springs forth; men and frogs alike. When Ereshigal breathed life into the Ogdru Jahad, Ereshigal breathed life into the universe. Evidence? Read the most recent issue of Rise of the Black Flame and get the word right from the horses mouth. The Black Goddess resides in the souls of every living thing.

The Black Goddess... we've called Hecate the Black Goddess, but it has also been used in reference to the three eyed, sharp toothed female black statues which (at least to me) don't seem to be depicting Hecate in any form I have seen her. It's unlikely that it is Hecate speaking to the German in the jungle in the most recent issue of Rise of the Black Flame. I think she's a separate entity; I think she is Ereshigal.

If we assume the above is true, then the Black Goddess granted power to the Ogdru Jahad. Since Hecate has been referred to as a "sister" of the Ogdru Jahad, then it is likely that she also granted power to Hecate in exchange for her service. Hecate becomes an avatar of Ereshigal, profanes the temple of Thoth, brings low a civilization, and starts a chain of events that will eventually lead to the Ogdru Jahad being freed.

Why would Ereshigal do this? With the Ogdru Jahad imprisoned, Ereshigal's true power is kept locked away. The Ogdru Jahad are a well of power; a "throne," if you will. When the first Ogdru Jahad arrived on Earth recently, the Black Flame drew on this power to devastating effect. When he was destroyed, that power returned to its vessel, alongside all of the released energy that the Black Flame had gathered. The effect was such that the Ogdru Jahad became even stronger.

So why was it a mistake to destroy the Ogdru Jahad? It's simple. Energy cannot be destroyed. It all had to go somewhere. There is no Black Flame. Hecate is imprisoned, as are the rest of the Ogdru Jahad, so where has all that power gone? Why did all the monsters stop when the Ogdru Jahad died? It's because the gift of life that Ereshigal granted to that Ogdru Jahad is gone; the power has returned to its source.

That's my theory anyway.

Thoughts?

[middenway]

I like the idea that the Black Goddess and Ereshigal could be two separate beings that have been conflated over time. I don't think that how Johann died was a bad thing, even though I agree that the power that was released has likely returned to its source. The thing is, ultimately, humans are going to be wiped out; it's simply a matter of when. However, the way they choose to meet that end is important, as it will shape the third race of man. I think this idea was first introduced in <i>Hellboy: The Fury</i>, and I really like it. Our destiny is to lose, but we chose how we face it. And Johann faced his end well, destroying his very soul for the sake of others.

[Kees_L]

I like your theory and Middenway's too.

My theory is... that it is good to be having theories, where reading the Hellverse titles would be concerned. As if the story matter itself commands it.

For instance how many names as popping up throughout the Hellboy World aren't necessarily made up names, but ringing often similar to difficult ancient mythical names existing in real life history. Names such as Rasputin, Hecate, King Thoth, Eresh(k)igal, Queen Mab(h), The Goddess Of War and many others.

Difficult names in the sense that none of those names immediately mean to represent either "Good" or "Bad", although all the usual assocations with the occult will be numerous nonetheless.

As if the story and lore to any those names will have existential bearing, not by supporting exclusively life or the divine versus but evil and destruction, but it seems more that life and death, beginnings and demises, underworlds and overworlds - are tangled up with depending on eachother. Plus fate or destiny hardly ever seems fit to become 'unmade' whereas destiny usually means something once it actually comes to pass or at least as seeming imminent, I'd say.

My main theory is that I have always liked how Hellboy always had a mind of his own no matter what divine mumblings got thrown at him. Like Rasputin's words for instance, which seem to primarily be just Rasputins' personal perspective.
A perspective sounding ominous and grand and pertaining to scary stuff but Hellboy lets all that fly way over his head, because it does fly over Hellboy's head. Which doesn't mean Rasputin's words don't harbor any truths or knowledge to them, it's more that Hellboy can't do much with Rasputins' perspective other than shrug at it.

I'm not sure if Hecate as an entity in Hellboy's world wasn't actually killed off by Hellboy, but even if she was, that still doesn't mean her presence couldn't be felt no more, because of how Hecate was described to being the former Mrs. Thoth both as the centre of a cult around "The Black Goddess", both as a familiar voice to the ears of Edward Grey the Witchfinder.
As such I haven't been feeling that as a reader I ought to be regarding Hecate or The Black Goddess as one and the same. Ereshigal neither.

For me it has been more that I will allow these mostly weird and mystical names serve as references for my reading by searching up on them as well as I can. The Sumerian / Assyric / Greek ancient stuff, from Beelzebub to Astaroth, or the Celtic lore bits as proving to being actual references depending on my knowledge on them. Or the Baba Yaga and friends type-of-stuff in for example Ivan Bilibin's beautiful folktale illustrations.
Or either Shakespeare and Shelley on the faerie queen "Mab". Plus all the other instances literature is referenced throughout the Hellverse - casually or otherwise - like Lord Byron on Rogers' complexion to everything else. It's storytelling on several levels, I would venture to think.

Regarding the Ogdru Jahad, I believe it was a Mignola interview from 2015 that pointed out to me how the Ogdru Jahad "was 7", like as having seven incarnations counting down into inevitable doom & rebirth. Which doesn't however mention at what incarnation we'd be at now. Which is to say I'm not convinced incarnation 1 or 2 would be recent at all. I'd think we'd be at 6 more likely, where 7 would be the Apocalypse fully underway.

All in all I think there will be factions wanting full knowledge and access to Vril or the black flames as well as the more flamey flames, onto trying to harness destiny itself, but I like Hellboy's style myself, as making faces in the face of destiny because why not.

[Kees_L]

I do have a question for you Zerodemon and Middenway (plus anybody else chippin' in):

I'm not yet fully read up on The Black Flame or all of the main B.P.R.D. titles myself, but I feel to remember theory (meaning specifically Middenway's Multiversity "Hell Notes") on the Right Hand and Left Hand cults, in relation to the Ogrdru Jahad's incarnations both as the Watchers comings and goings.

In 'Hellboy: The Fury' both as other graphical Hellboy exploits I've seen Hellboy's friends with flamey yellow flame bits over their heads once or twice. Both as what could be called foes or at least darker entities with blue/dark flames over theirs.

If such flames could correspond with Ogdru's creationing or the Watchers' creationing or life imbuementing, couldn't Ereshigal be part in this? It sort of seems if Hellboy's Hand came from a two-handed statue in Mr. and Mrs. Thoth's Kingdom, where also two of the watchers landed, plus where a Black Goddess cult thrived even before Hecate got to being Hecate, well.
Maybe the blacker flames as well as the lighter flames spring from a similar Tree as rooted deeply underground?

[zerodemon]

It is my understanding that the red flames are an expression of Vril or "The Secret Fire" stolen by Anum, and that the black flames are the flame of life granted by Ereshigal to the Ogdru Jahad.

This binary is interesting, as both were used to create the OJ. My question is what becomes of a being if they are able to use both?

[Kees_L]

It is my understanding that the red flames are an expression of Vril or "The Secret Fire" stolen by Anum, and that the black flames are the flame of life granted by Ereshigal to the Ogdru Jahad.

This binary is interesting, as both were used to create the OJ.

Sounds good. But didn't the Watchers - such as for instance "Anum the Watcher" - didn't they do divine or creational stuff with the Ogdru Jahad already being in existence or be it in response to such?
It is my understanding that even if the watchers created the Ogdru Jahad, the Ogdru Jahad created 'all', with the Watchers springing off into what the Ogdru Jahad was creating.

A bit of a chicken and egg thing - as if the Watchers managed to be doing some important stuff upon the creator deity as becoming fully formed, with further forming or shaping creation as a result. The aliens would likely be more knowledgable on this. Or not.

For all I know Ereshigal could be a Watcher herself. And it would seem fitting that the darker flames would color similar to her kind, both as Hecate's or Rasputin's flames over their heads with which they seem to have been portrayed on occasion.
Not to say that Eshigal's kind or the darker flames should neededly be associated with 'evil'. Hecate and Rasputin seem to stake allegiance towards 'evil', but Ereshigal or the Ogrdru Jahad not necessarily I'd imagine.

My question is what becomes of a being if they are able to use both?

I'm not yet up to speed on The Black Flame or either the latest B.P.R.D. ending, nor either Sledgehammer '44, so I feel I couldn't comment on beings harnessing the use of Vril or using up such energy.
I'd be to think that 'energy' is usually attributed with reflecting a causality - in that it comes from somewhere. If energy depletes or dies then that must have a cause also.

But whether the colors to these flames should correspond with needing or being to conflict - I'm not seeing much reason for such. It could just as easily be that the 'black' and 'red' may complement or need eachother, just like life and death or light and dark. There is no reason to think light and dark couldn't co-exist or form sides to the same coin, since they mainly do? Without light there is no shadow and existence or story is in between a beginning and an end I'd think. Despite or thanks to whatever despites to consider.

And just like how Hellboy's destiny may have been intended different from what he ended up as, the Sumerian name Ereshkigal is described to being a Goddess not so much destined onto ruling her bit of an Underworld - not necessarily as some dark or evil miscreant, she does end up as high ruler to an Underworld nonetheless. So no good vs. bad or light vs. dark comes into such I'd reckon'. Existence yes. Death, sure. But good or evil hardly seem leading or decisive in any predestined or matter-of-fact-like sense in any of it.
Living things, like individuals and communities show and share their prides and sorrows, they admire the good or mourn what would appear not good. I wouldn't bet money on that either Ereshkigal or Hecate or the Ogdru Jahad would see good and evil same as how mortals might, or at least I'd think that mortals would have a way different vantage point on existence than any immortal eternal slumbering deities such as the Ogdru Jahad. Such a sleepy head - all seven of them!
I think Hellboy and Rasputin their characters as interacting both reflect this difference, in how when Rasputin stepped into Seed of Destruction all preachy and ramblant, he had something very whacky and funny about him. All doomy and prophecizin'. Whereas Hellboy himself sorta seemed out of place from what demons would normally look like, as seeming human himself so much. Coming sorta full circle in Hell, where his brothers and fellow demonspawn all go "Oh Crap, there goes the neighborhood" as soon as Hellboy arrives with slitting a certain throat on the side... A whacky way of scaling down or up the idea of destiny or doom into human proportions so to speak.

To say I wouldn't think there'd be like 'good Vril' vs. 'bad Vril'. But your theory on two kinds of Vril, as depending per what Watcher or faction thereof such energy would be to originate from, I could see that.
Plus both being neededly part to the creating of the Ogdru Jahad as creator or wiper-outer of 'all', I could see that too.

[zerodemon]

I'm fairly sure that Anum stole the Secret Fire and fashioned the Ogdru Jahad out of the mud because the Watchers were too impatient for life to evolve naturally. That's what it says in the companion. I'm also fairly certain that the phrasing there makes it factual and not apocryphal. I don't know if Ereshigal is a Watcher, but I'd imagine not. There is no mention of Ereshigal needing to steal power to imbue life or create anything the way Anum did. Ereshigal just acted. I'm most inclined to believe that Ereshigal is the "nothing" that existed before creation, and when we refer to Ereshigal as "The Darkness" we mean the totality of darkness. When she imbues the Ogdru Jahad with purpose and life, she is making herself an entity of import in the paradigm. When you get round to reading Black Flame, you may understand better what I mean by that. There is a very revealing sentence that I won't spoil for you.

Is Ereshigal an entity with the power of God? Are they equals? God is really only referred to in the creation myth of the Hellboy universe, but Ereshigal seems to be the one taking an interest in events.

[Kees_L]

I'm fairly sure that Anum stole the Secret Fire and fashioned the Ogdru Jahad out of the mud because the Watchers were too impatient for life to evolve naturally. That's what it says in the companion. I'm also fairly certain that the phrasing there makes it factual and not apocryphal. I don't know if Ereshigal is a Watcher, but I'd imagine not. There is no mention of Ereshigal needing to steal power to imbue life or create anything the way Anum did. Ereshigal just acted. I'm most inclined to believe that Ereshigal is the "nothing" that existed before creation, and when we refer to Ereshigal as "The Darkness" we mean the totality of darkness. When she imbues the Ogdru Jahad with purpose and life, she is making herself an entity of import in the paradigm. When you get round to reading Black Flame, you may understand better what I mean by that. There is a very revealing sentence that I won't spoil for you.

Agreed and thanks. You are very right on the Companion entry.

It seems to me all that is at the heart of the mainly ancient Hyperborean/Lemurian myth and mythology, which is sometimes quoted or described throughout the stories.
For instance by Prof. O'Donnell (in I believe Witchfinder: In the Service of Angels) describing ancient worship to being corrupted with false gods bringing upon their ruin. In the Companion entry Ereshkigal, the darkness, is mentioned as being regarded by the Watchers as having corrupted their creations. She also gets mentioned by either Rasputin or Hecate in other stories, possibly by both.

So if Ereshkigal can be seen as darkness and chaos, why would she be equal to God or "the (only) one taking an interest"?

To me it sounds more like the Watchers and Ereshkigal came to blows, they appear to conflict or at least that worship to them may have opposed one another throughout ancient times, before any those earlier civilizations became to end.
But at the same time I take from it that chaos (Ereshkigal) helped to form order (creation).

As if to say there isn't a binary or duality as much as an entwinement, symbiosis and mutual need between like order and chaos, light and dark.

As how on a similar tangent it seems to me that Hellboy's apparent indifference towards allegiances (his humaneness despite being a demon both as the intended doombringer) wouldn't be indifference at all, but simply that allegiances would mainly be moot to begin with, if everything would basically be needing everything else I mean.

Like everything to the stories seems a balance as much as Hellboy himself or at least his destiny seems kindred to this oldest Hyperborean myth stuff basically.

A balance of lore and graphicality, in how Hellboy embodies his own asymmetry or paradox, as a 'good guy' looking like 'the devil', shaped with one massive Right Hand but not the left similarly. Against the tapestry of numerous conflicting factions each claiming their own reading of the lore,
with Hecate / Rasputin and the like seemingly worshipping chaos over order, or as Left Hand cults vs. Right Hand cults, black flames vs. red flames, the tangent to me remains that apparently all such conflict seems in vain, if chaos and order would intrinsically prove complementary.