What Superman Developments Do You Have Trouble "Getting Over?"

[Ascended]

I wish there was a definite explanation as to why Kryptonians look like us.
1. Borrow from Red Son and they are humanities literal future.
2. Ancient Astronauts and we are descended from Kryptonians.
3. Kal's ship altered his DNA to match the humans he was discovered by.
4. Krypton is a diverse planet with countless species with the humanoid types evolved from abducted humans.

Just some wild theories.

My personal theory? All the races that look the same; Terrans, Thanagarians, Rannians, Kryptonians, Tamaraneans, etc, were all seeded by a mysterious alien race as old or older than the Oans. Where are they now? Where'd they come from? Why did they seed so many planets? What was their goal?

All part of the mystery.

Mostly because I havent worked that bit out.

[Chris24601]

I wish there was a definite explanation as to why Kryptonians look like us.
1. Borrow from Red Son and they are humanities literal future.
2. Ancient Astronauts and we are descended from Kryptonians.
3. Kal's ship altered his DNA to match the humans he was discovered by.
4. Krypton is a diverse planet with countless species with the humanoid types evolved from abducted humans.

Just some wild theories.

I'd go with a variation on Maggin's origin in that regard. Kryptonians are the descendants of human space explorers from a lost civilization (i.e. whatever was the root of the Atlantis legend). They crashed on a hostile world and, once they exhausted all options for escape/rescue, they used their advanced science to adapt themselves to that environment.

I'd take it a bit further though in a couple of respects.

First, I'd make that 'distant origin' a part of Krypton's mythology, including which star in the sky they are believed to have originally come from. When Jor-El realizes Krypton is doomed, he remembers those stories and targets Kal-El's ship for the habitable zone of that star. So instead of having Jor-El know everything about Earth ahead of time and sending his son to be some savior to mankind who must always be alone -or- having him sending his son to some random world with a yellow sun where the lifeforms may look nothing like him... it becomes instead a calculated risk on Jor-El's part. So many things could go wrong, but if the legends are true then the place he's sending his son to is where his people originally hailed from... a place where his son would be able to survive and where people with a common ancestor might still live so that his son might find love and have a family of his own.

Second, I'd tie the lost civilization that the Kryptonians came from into the origins of Atlantis (and Aquaman), the Amazons/Greek Gods (and Wonder Woman), Homo Magia (humans who can work magic) and the metahuman gene so that the DCU has some sort of unified origin for why there are superpowers and so many 'human' aliens as part of it.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

DC isn't blocking Millar and Morrison from writing Superman, they're just not interested now. Millar's comics are now just glorified pitches for big budget movies (and they're great pitches) that guarantee him huge amounts of money and being famous enough to appear on Newsnight. Morrison was put in charge of the whole Superman line with the New 52 yet was only interested in Superman's early years rather than the present day and Superfamily and then bailed a year and a half in. He's now tired of writing monthly superhero comics (he did just write a great Superman story with Mastermen in Multiversity a couple years ago anyway).

I know. Regarding Millar, last I heard he's still interested. I mean, he's been in talks with DC about writing his Superman magnum opus, after all. I could argue that Waid, being the HUGE Superman fan he is, would jump at the chance (although his problem with DC has been so serious that he would not write for them in any capacity). As for Morrison, I take it as he's just taking some time off. But yeah, he said as much in an interview.

Superman doesn't do as well as Batman because most writers seem to find writing more street level crime stories easier than writing big sci-fi stories. And whenever a writer has a success on Batman, DC always puts them on Superman, usually to horrible results. Bruce Timm, Nolan and Goyer, Scott Snyder are just a few off the top of my head. Get people to write Superman who are into and can write sci fi first and foremost. They should also be able to write comics that are mostly upbeat and positive rather grim and dour. And if you want to fix the monthlies you HAVE to get a better editor.

Agreed.

A good Superman video game is almost impossible though. You'd have to severely power him down for it to work.

I don't think that's necessary.

It can work if you actually remember you're making a Superman video game. Superman is vulnerable to Kryptonite, magic and people powerful enough to hurt him. He can't see through lead. Red sun radiation slowly weakens him. He is almost indestructible but his entorn and the people he wants to protect aren't. Add all those ingredients and you'll have a great Superman video game with a sense of danger and grades of difficulty. At this point I just think they just don't want to do it. It's easier to drop another Batman videogame.

The Superman Returns videogame took steps in the right direction. You just need to go a bit further down that road, and for the love of Rao add some craziness. I mean, I remember that thread about ideas for a Superman videogame, and there's lots of really cool ideas there that could be implemented. The danger, in general, shouldn't be for Superman himself, but for the people/ planet(s)/ galaxy he's protecting.

How about everything that has happened in the last year?

Preach, man.

Superman *wants* to sell. Man of Steel made more money than almost all the big Marvel hits, yet was infinitely more divisive. He's one of the highest grossing superhero franchises, without the benefit of constant media exposure (which Clark's "rivals" all get in abundance). Superman, despite this long running downturn, is still stupidly popular and people seem to actively want to engage with the character.

But for a long time, WB/DC haven't been able to find the right mix to maximize the potential. And I do believe that at various points they really have tried (and at others washed their hands of the thing). And the attempts they've made have often cost them. Nearly all of Superman's Returns revenue went towards paying for previous failed attempts, right? Hell, no wonder WB is gun-shy to pull the trigger on video games and cartoons. The potential losses could hurt like hell. Batman however, they do understand, and he makes serious bank. You can't blame a business for doing what it's good at and giving its customers what they want. DC knows how to play the Bat's tune and people like the sound. WB/DC is not at fault here. That's just business.

And let's not forget the legal battles, which have likely affected how DC and WB use/approach the character.

Should Superman get the high profile names? Ideally yeah, but just look at Johns. That guy is DC's biggest name and can work magic with tons of characters. Except Superman. Look at Scott Snyder. Dude's legit namebrand. But Unchained was so boring it actively hurt to read. Ivan Reis on art? Already been there (though a return would be killer). And yeah, these runs do decently but not even Johns could pull Superman out of his sales drop in 2015. But Pak made it work and he's not A-list. Tomasi and Gleason are crushing it, and they're no Morrison or Ellis (no offense to those gentlemen intended). So big name talent isnt necessarily the answer.

Superman should totally be a bigger powerhouse within DC. But whatever their hangup is, DC can't make that happen and hasn't been able to for twenty years.

They just gotta hire me, I'll fix it up.

Heh, I think some of us would do a better job with Superman than some of the ones currently in charge.

I mostly agree. Except for WB/DC trying to maximize Superman's potential. They're all so caught up with Batman and the sh*tload of money he makes that they simply don't care enough about Superman. They are focusing on maximizing Batman's potential, not Superman's. Also, I agree on the big-name writers & artists. Like Mastermind said, it's not that you necessarily need a Morrison (although damn it, that would be a HUGE plus), but rather a writer who loves and understands the character and also, can write larger-than-life sci-fi stories with a dash of common life on Earth.

Physically Superman is not human but culturally he is human. He was raised on Earth. He knows Earth culture first hand. All he knows about Krypton is what he's read.

I agree. But that is one thing, and another is neglecting the place you come from and who you truly are. And the culture and traditions of that place. And that's not only in the cultural sense, but in the biological one.

love all of this ^

Glad we're on the same page.

I say that we put you in charge so you could 'straighten the ship' for us.

Thanks! I won't let you down, sir.

But he's also known painfully well that he's incredibly different from them from a young age. That has an effect on the psyche too, knowing you're different, and wanting somewhere to belong on some level. Not that Jonathan and Martha didn't make him belong with them, but I'm talking in a general capacity out in the world. This, in my opinion, makes it perfectly reasonable that he'd strive for and find a strong connection to his home planet just as much as he loves his adopted one.

This is one reason why its a terrible idea to have Superman's powers not come alive in any capacity before his teen years. They must show up in adolescence at the latest (with some degree of strength and durability being present from the start, imo), forcing the truth from Ma and Pa. As much as I'm a fan of the 90s because its what I grew up with, it was all the same incredibly cheap and hurt the depth of the character to have him be essentially completely normal till 16-18. That was a bad move. But that's not on Byrne. That happened after him.

Reminds me of the Ruby Spears cartoon. As a baby, he was completely aware and could even fly. We could also say that it's only natural that he'd be able to fracture Pa Kent's finger while he was holding him as a baby, because he's Kryptonian. Alien. His innate biology plays a - huge, IMO - part in that, from the start.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

turning right Krypto into left Krypto with no explanation of how or why.



They look nothing alike. Why do that?

I keep wondering the same. I think new52 Krypto was a really cool change.

Well, it depends on which version of Krypton you're using, doesnt it?

Byrne's Krypton is certainly unlike anything on earth, while the Silver Age Krypton is basically just us with flying cars and silly fashion.

Which is why I would never use Silver Age Krypton, as cool as it was. I'd make it as alien as possible (except for Kryptonian's general physical appearance). BTW, that reminds me of that "Superman Lives" concept art...

That Krypton's story is a cautionary tale for humanity is obvious, and near as I can tell it's been part of the story since practically the beginning (the message, not Krypton itself). But just because they doomed themselves by making mistakes we're likely to make (or are making right now) doesn't mean that they're like (any of) us culturally.

I think for the average person, if they relate to Krypton at all its because those people look human, not because they share the same morality or social aesthetics. Just look at the commotion you see when Clark kills someone (like Zod) who looks human. Compare that with what happens when Clark kills someone that doesn't look human. He can murder space monsters all day and people cheer, but he kills a monster that looks like you or me? All hell breaks loose, and its not because that human-looking monster had a similar culture to our own.

Bottom line though, is that Krypton's culture/s aren't inhuman, they're just different. Just like American culture is different from what you see in Swahili, China, or the UK. We all share some broad stroke things in common but the details are different. Krypton is like that but on a superhuman scope.

But can you really talk about Krypton's culture and leave the biology out of it? Our physiology defines a lot; if our ears were shaped just slightly differently we'd all listen to vastly different music. If our brains weren't quite shaped the same way we'd approach science, language, art....basically everything, differently. So can we really discount the impact biology has on culture? Especially an alien culture where environmental factors, evolution, and so on are so radically different? Culture aside, Clark's brain and senses don't work like our's do. It doesn't matter that he grew up here and shares our values, he is fundamentally different on a level no amount of integration is ever going to change. And I think that is just as critical to the mythos as the cautionary tale that Krypton provides. You put those two together and you get the message that we're all different, we're all American Aliens (thanks Landis) but that's exactly what bonds us together, and we all need to stop screwing around and step up before we doom ourselves and our kids.

Well said. Superman can see or hear things none of us could, and that's part of the reason he wants to save us. Reminds me of All-Star Superman #12. After Lex saw things like Superman does, he started crying.

I don't know anything about the Krypto story being referred to above, but those images of Krypto recall "Beware the Mad Dog of Steel"--a story that traumatized me as a boy. It was by Otto Binder, George Papp and Frank Springer, in SUPERBOY No. 140 (July '67). That story actually recycled the plot from "The Colossal Superdog" in ADVENTURE COMICS No. 262 (July '59), also by Binder and Papp. Given Grant Morrison and I are from the same generation of readers, I'd imagine if he ever read the "Mad Dog of Steel" story, he would have never forgot it. Some rather brutal emotion for any kid to go through, seeing what happens to Krypto there.

Dude, either you have a great memory, or you have some sort of list, or you are secretly Mark freaking Waid.

I wish there was a definite explanation as to why Kryptonians look like us.
1. Borrow from Red Son and they are humanities literal future.
2. Ancient Astronauts and we are descended from Kryptonians.
3. Kal's ship altered his DNA to match the humans he was discovered by.
4. Krypton is a diverse planet with countless species with the humanoid types evolved from abducted humans.

Just some wild theories.

All of them sound cool. But I'd go with number 2. So, ancient Kryptonians are the "Annunaki/ ancient aliens" who created us.

Damn, I LOVE that show.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

My personal theory? All the races that look the same; Terrans, Thanagarians, Rannians, Kryptonians, Tamaraneans, etc, were all seeded by a mysterious alien race as old or older than the Oans. Where are they now? Where'd they come from? Why did they seed so many planets? What was their goal?

All part of the mystery.

Mostly because I havent worked that bit out.

You mean Mass Effect's Proteans?

[13th Superman]

My personal theory? All the races that look the same; Terrans, Thanagarians, Rannians, Kryptonians, Tamaraneans, etc, were all seeded by a mysterious alien race as old or older than the Oans. Where are they now? Where'd they come from? Why did they seed so many planets? What was their goal?

All part of the mystery.

Mostly because I havent worked that bit out.

Oh yeah this reminds of Mon-El / Valor being the great seeder for the future races in the 30th century which reminds me of that. It also reminds me of the common ancestry brought up in Star Trek due to the ancient humanoid progenitors seeding the different planets. I wish there was a series went in depth on the possible connections.

[13th Superman]

You mean Mass Effect's Proteans?

Hah Oh yes! The Protheans. Why can't we have a DC equivalent of that series.

[13th Superman]

All of them sound cool. But I'd go with number 2. So, ancient Kryptonians are the "Annunaki/ ancient aliens" who created us.

Damn, I LOVE that show.

Dude that show is a guilty pleasure of mine!! Had no idea Otto Binder was a proponent of the idea.

[TheCape]

Hah Oh yes! The Protheans. Why can't we have a DC equivalent of that series.

Is only a matter of time, we had the Reapers in JL recently.

[13th Superman]

I'd go with a variation on Maggin's origin in that regard. Kryptonians are the descendants of human space explorers from a lost civilization (i.e. whatever was the root of the Atlantis legend). They crashed on a hostile world and, once they exhausted all options for escape/rescue, they used their advanced science to adapt themselves to that environment.

I'd take it a bit further though in a couple of respects.

First, I'd make that 'distant origin' a part of Krypton's mythology, including which star in the sky they are believed to have originally come from. When Jor-El realizes Krypton is doomed, he remembers those stories and targets Kal-El's ship for the habitable zone of that star. So instead of having Jor-El know everything about Earth ahead of time and sending his son to be some savior to mankind who must always be alone -or- having him sending his son to some random world with a yellow sun where the lifeforms may look nothing like him... it becomes instead a calculated risk on Jor-El's part. So many things could go wrong, but if the legends are true then the place he's sending his son to is where his people originally hailed from... a place where his son would be able to survive and where people with a common ancestor might still live so that his son might find love and have a family of his own.

Second, I'd tie the lost civilization that the Kryptonians came from into the origins of Atlantis (and Aquaman), the Amazons/Greek Gods (and Wonder Woman), Homo Magia (humans who can work magic) and the metahuman gene so that the DCU has some sort of unified origin for why there are superpowers and so many 'human' aliens as part of it.

I could go with that. It's like we became the seeders and many of these races in the future are returning home so to speak. Earth becomes a type of legend or mythic homeworld that many races have "memories" of like you mentioned with Jor-El. I really like this idea. I especially like the idea of the spreading of homo magi, meta DNA spreading outward which could benefit the evolution of the many races. Like when the Reach in Young Justice came to Earth to research the Meta gene in humans. It's a reverse take on or rather a different perspective on the need to explore one's on origin with "us" being the center of it all.

[Ascended]

You mean Mass Effect's Proteans?

I guess? I've never played the games. Not much of a gamer these days. I play DCU Online and dabble with Overwatch, Fallout 4, and still play Skyrim. That's it though.

Heh, I think some of us would do a better job with Superman than some of the ones currently in charge.

I mostly agree. Except for WB/DC trying to maximize Superman's potential. They're all so caught up with Batman and the sh*tload of money he makes that they simply don't care enough about Superman. They are focusing on maximizing Batman's potential, not Superman's. Also, I agree on the big-name writers & artists. Like Mastermind said, it's not that you necessarily need a Morrison (although damn it, that would be a HUGE plus), but rather a writer who loves and understands the character and also, can write larger-than-life sci-fi stories with a dash of common life on Earth.

I think WB/DC have tried, at various points over the last thirty years. I mean, it wasn't that long ago Superman got Morrison, Johns, and Snyder, three of the biggest writers they can get, in rapid succession, as well as Jim Lee.

I wont argue that they put more effort into Batman. That's true by miles. But I do think they've put some effort into Superman as well. Its typically misdirected, and often wrong-headed, but if they knew what to do with Clark we wouldnt be having this discussion. And there are of course outside influences like the legal battle, which impact what DC can and cant do.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

Everything that happened from August 2011 to Rebirth

This. The whole of the New 52 was particularly atrocious. And Superman got some of the worst of it, especially because it wiped away almost everything that defined classic Superman. I mean, we didn't even know for the first year or so if Supes's most famous and best-selling story was even still in continuity. Morrison's run is incredibly overrated and Pak's was dragged down by unnecessary crossovers. Rebirth Superman is the best Superman has been in years.

[Jim Kelly]

Dude, either you have a great memory, or you have some sort of list, or you are secretly Mark freaking Waid.

I do have a reliable memory for some comics--can remember exact issue numbers and cover dates--however, there's Mike's Amazing World (dcindexes.com) and the Grand Comics Database (comics.org) to back me up. I did remember that the SUPERBOY issue in question was probably 140 and probably a July '67 cover date, but I checked Mike's Newsstand just to be certain.

I wish this memory worked for recent comics, because I've got stuck buying double issues of a few Rebirth comics in the last months, when I didn't remember that I'd already got that issue.

[Lemurion]

I"m fine with what they're doing with current Superman because it's different and I like new stories.

As for mistakes; cutting his connection to the Legion is one, and depowering him is the other. Every time they drop his powers below Pre-Crisis levels it's a mistake.

[manofsteel1979]

turning right Krypto into left Krypto with no explanation of how or why.



They look nothing alike. Why do that?

As much as I liked Direwolf Krypto,on the surface, to the people who avoided Nuperman like the plague since 2011, it was symbolic of the reputation,earned or not, that Nuperman was kewl extreme Superman. It was to send the message, " OK, it's safe to come back again, we are distancing ourselves visually from the new 52."

In story. The solution is simple. Just have Superman mention that Krypto isn't just a dog,but a Kryptonian caninemorph that can alter his appearance at will. Sometimes he looks like a harmless little white dog, other times he looks like a retriever, other times a Direwolf. That would explain all the different incarnations of Krypto. At least that's my head canon.