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  1. #196
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Who cares if she's watching though. She holds no actual power and isn't in a position to actually do anything. Her capability to watch them is even questionable. Plus shes not an elected official, she no more represents Gotham's citizens than Batman. She's a hurt teenage who lacks the means and capabilities to keep anything in check, nor is up to her to determine what the line is.
    So what? Steph is convinced she can do all these things and that she does have that responsibility, even if we the audience can see she's mistaken about both of these things. What's the issue?
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  2. #197
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Powertool View Post
    Using the "real accomplishments" (ah ah!) of a character from an American-style serialized superhero comic book and using them to prove his/her worth compared to another one is a very shaky proposition. After all, what has Batman "really accomplished" in 77 years of editorial history? Gotham City becomes a more dangerous place with each passing year and no member of his rogues' gallery ever walks down a lasting path of redemption, while the few that "take their leave" in the lethal sense are very often resurrected more violent and dangerous than ever by new writers who want to try their hand with old toys. You can find no greatest argument against the Bat-God trope than talking the whole editorial life of the character as a whole! Unless Bruce is classified as quite an @$$holish god...
    You are correct that Gotham city is still a dangerous place in spite of Batman but that's really due to the fact that crime if ended in gotham then we would have no need for Batman comics. Gotham is crime ridden cos it gives the Batman story a reason to continue.

    In story however you are incorrect in saying that Batman has never really accomplished anything.

    Dick, Jason, Tim even Steph. The whole Bat family exists because of him. He inspired all these heroes don a costume and fight the good fight. All the good they do, all the lives they save as heroes is because of Batman.

    Damian Wayne is one killer who walks down a lasting path of redemption thanks to Batman.

    Batman might not have stopped crime in Gotham but he is a symbol and a source of inspiration to other good brave individuals. The batfamily is Batman's real accomplishment.
    Last edited by dietrich; 01-08-2017 at 11:52 AM.

  3. #198
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dietrich View Post
    You are correct that Gotham city is still a dangerous place in spite of Batman but that's really due to the fact that crime if ended in gotham then we would have no need for Batman comics. Gotham is crime ridden cos it gives the Batman story a reason to continue.

    In story however you are incorrect in saying that Batman has never really accomplished anything.

    Dick, Jason, Tim even Steph. The whole Bat family exists because of him. He inspired all these heroes don a costume and fight the good fight. All the good they do, all the lives they save as heroes is because of Batman.

    Damian Wayne is one killer who walks down a lasting path of redemption thanks to Batman.

    Batman might not have stopped crime in Gotham but he is a symbol and a source of inspiration to other good brave individuals. The batfamily is Batman's real accomplishment.
    I agree with you end point completely, but the point of the original poster was that Stephanie isn't a good character because she hasn't accomplished anything. Powertool is pointing out that that's a very bad metric for the worth of a character.
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  4. #199
    Incredible Member SicariiDC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    If the narrative were treating her point as legitimate, I could see why this would be a problem, but it's not. Not entirely, anyway. She's clearly well-intentioned, but I think it's clear that she's being incredibly naive, as well. Look at all the alternative possibilities she lists for everyone, for example. They sound good, but are all largely unrealistic.

    I definitely wouldn't agree she's acting like she's above anyone or holier-than-thou, but even assuming she is, so what? She's upset. Are characters not allowed to make bad decisions or something, especially when they're emotionally compromised?
    Yeah, I think my question was more towards the readers, than creative decisions. I was curious like, why is she even in the book. I wasn't trying to quantify anything, just genuinely curious about her history as a character. Of course, coming from a haters perspective lol. People rail on Harper, who I personally think is an ok character, and I'm trying to see what it is Steph has or has done or is that makes her have such a following. Maybe it's the fact that she's been around...but that also seems like a dumb argument for a fictional character.

    I may have asked the question in the wrong way. Although I was curious about Stephs history, accomplishments may have been a bad way to frame it. Basically, why do people like her so much? But hate Duke and Harper, I guess would be my real question
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  5. #200
    Mighty Member Korath's Avatar
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    I didn't knew much of Steph before New 52, but she grew on me during Batman Eternal. I'm a little... sceptical with how she is currently portrayed, but I also thinks that it is a good way to establish her as her own character and not "Batgirl nx". I can totally feel some vibes now that she had in BE and I really believe that all of this makes for a great foundation to build upon, but one which will require a lot of skills and careful preparation. I think that Tynion is really the man to go to do just that, for as long as necessary for her to develop enough for the Spoiler to be a "brand" strong enough to stand on its own or in small committees. Hopefully, she'll get at least a mini-series down the line to complete the works currently done.

    Edit, to answer to SicariiDC

    I think peoples hate Harper and Duke because they are relatively new characters. From what I get, Damian was also quite hated (and still is in some places) because of it too. It's a shame, because I find that Harper and Duke fit a lot better with a Batfamily than Luke Fox or Tim Drake. That's not to say that those two aren't good characters, but I don't like them personally, they don't resonate well with me the way Harper and Duke do. That's purely personal thought. I also thinks that Snyder's get a lot of unwarranted hatred (kind of like DCEU's Snyder) and that people grasped at straws to find new reasons to hate him, and his creations (and it's sometimes quite obvious, like in Duke Thomas' hate. Somehow, he is just like Tim... except that he is black and told to Batman that a Robin doesn't need a Batman, which are, like it or not, two major differences to the character, which opens a lot of ways for him to grow and become his own character, with distinct flavour and story).

    Also, in Harper's case, Batman and Robin Eternal was poorly received, while I found it to be an excellent story, with a clear double message : one own worth isn't determined by his or her genetic potential and ancestry (Dick was and is a better hero than Harper because of his training, and no amount of potential can change that, Cassandra Cain isn't a remorseless killer, despite her father and his training, etc.) and a lesson in carefulness (sometimes, being too clever is a bad thing, which Batman learnt when his bargain costed a young girl and boy their mother and mentally scarred another young girl). I hope that, someday, Harper will return as Bluebird, possibly more seasoned and in a more supporting role, but I think that Spoiler, Orphan and her would make an absolutely wonderful trio to see acting together, the weaknesses of each being more than compensated by their strength.
    Last edited by Korath; 01-08-2017 at 03:25 PM.

  6. #201
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SicariiDC View Post
    Yeah, I think my question was more towards the readers, than creative decisions. I was curious like, why is she even in the book. I wasn't trying to quantify anything, just genuinely curious about her history as a character. Of course, coming from a haters perspective lol. People rail on Harper, who I personally think is an ok character, and I'm trying to see what it is Steph has or has done or is that makes her have such a following. Maybe it's the fact that she's been around...but that also seems like a dumb argument for a fictional character.

    I may have asked the question in the wrong way. Although I was curious about Stephs history, accomplishments may have been a bad way to frame it. Basically, why do people like her so much? But hate Duke and Harper, I guess would be my real question
    Well, I'm a Steph fan from War Games/Batgirl days (she was mostly dead when I got into comics, but when she came back, I really got into her). Mostly because she is inspired by Batman and Batgirl, but instead of becoming too dark and obsessed, she is a plucky determinator, never giving up. I'm also a sucker for her old relationship with Tim - a sweet teen romance with lots of hurdles to clear. In the n52, I'm really loving her cheeriness (currently muted by her grief) and sense of being inspired by Batman - pretty much the same thing that I loved about her in pre-Flashpoint continuity.

    I don't hate Harper or Duke. They're nowhere close to my favorites, but I quite enjoyed Harper in Batman Eternal, and Duke grew on me by the end of We Are Robin (even if I liked every other Robin better than him in that book ). But then, I'm a reader who is always perplexed by complaints that the Batfamily is too full. I love them all - Batwing, Azrael, Orphan, bring them on, as long as they are well written and drawn!

    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I didn't knew much of Steph before New 52, but she grew on me during Batman Eternal. I'm a little... sceptical with how she is currently portrayed, but I also thinks that it is a good way to establish her as her own character and not "Batgirl nx". I can totally feel some vibes now that she had in BE and I really believe that all of this makes for a great foundation to build upon, but one which will require a lot of skills and careful preparation. I think that Tynion is really the man to go to do just that, for as long as necessary for her to develop enough for the Spoiler to be a "brand" strong enough to stand on its own or in small committees. Hopefully, she'll get at least a mini-series down the line to complete the works currently done.

    Edit, to answer to SicariiDC

    I think peoples hate Harper and Duke because they are relatively new characters. From what I get, Damian was also quite hated (and still is in some places) because of it too. It's a shame, because I find that Harper and Duke fit a lot better with a Batfamily than Luke Fox or Tim Drake. That's not to say that those two aren't good characters, but I don't like them personally, they don't resonate well with me the way Harper and Duke do. That's purely personal thought. I also thinks that Snyder's get a lot of unwarranted hatred (kind of like DCEU's Snyder) and that people grasped at straws to find new reasons to hate him, and his creations (and it's sometimes quite obvious, like in Duke Thomas' hate. Somehow, he is just like Tim... except that he is black and told to Batman that a Robin doesn't need a Batman, which are, like it or not, two major differences to the character, which opens a lot of ways for him to grow and become his own character, with distinct flavour and story).

    Also, in Harper's case, Batman and Robin Eternal was poorly received, while I found it to be an excellent story, with a clear double message : one own worth isn't determined by his or her genetic potential and ancestry (Dick was and is a better hero than Harper because of his training, and no amount of potential can change that, Cassandra Cain isn't a remorseless killer, despite her father and his training, etc.) and a lesson in carefulness (sometimes, being too clever is a bad thing, which Batman learnt when his bargain costed a young girl and boy their mother and mentally scarred another young girl). I hope that, someday, Harper will return as Bluebird, possibly more seasoned and in a more supporting role, but I think that Spoiler, Orphan and her would make an absolutely wonderful trio to see acting together, the weaknesses of each being more than compensated by their strength.
    Really nicely said! I think the issue with Snyder is he's not very respectful to the things people loved about characters. Sometimes that can be simply an interpretation, like how his Bruce isn't insanely prepared for everything like Morrison's was, and sometimes it's annoying, like how he switched up Freeze's characterization. His leadership has also led to very divisive changes to character status quo, like Catwoman's Mafia Head, or Bruce with amnesia/Gordon Batman. I've enjoyed a lot of what he's set in motion, but there is a sense that he's simply not interested in characters created by someone else, as long as they're not Bruce (who is written uniquely enough that he's basically Snyder's own Bruce). Unlike Tom King (or Morrison), Snyder isn't very interested in the consequences of other people's stories on his own work (and he thinks other writers should feel the same way, even though that's an untenable attitude in an organization like DC). He's great to collaborate with directly, but he's not very gracious to those who are no longer working with him. (Caveat - Snyder seems like a really great guy in every single interview I've read or listened to. I really wish I could meet him. But I also think he's not really on board with the continuity of others.)

    Tynion has promised that Harper will come back, but hasn't set a timeline for it yet. I would like to see a Steph/Cass/Harper team, even though I would like to see Tim involved in their lives too. (I did weekly reviews for Batman and Robin Eternal, and liked it on the whole, but I do think there were serious flaws in some of the plotlines, and the finale issue has a lot of artistic and writing problems that leaves the whole thing a bit less satisfying than the first Eternal).
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  7. #202
    Extraordinary Member dietrich's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Korath View Post
    I didn't knew much of Steph before New 52, but she grew on me during Batman Eternal. I'm a little... sceptical with how she is currently portrayed, but I also thinks that it is a good way to establish her as her own character and not "Batgirl nx". I can totally feel some vibes now that she had in BE and I really believe that all of this makes for a great foundation to build upon, but one which will require a lot of skills and careful preparation. I think that Tynion is really the man to go to do just that, for as long as necessary for her to develop enough for the Spoiler to be a "brand" strong enough to stand on its own or in small committees. Hopefully, she'll get at least a mini-series down the line to complete the works currently done.

    Edit, to answer to SicariiDC

    I think peoples hate Harper and Duke because they are relatively new characters. From what I get, Damian was also quite hated (and still is in some places) because of it too. It's a shame, because I find that Harper and Duke fit a lot better with a Batfamily than Luke Fox or Tim Drake. That's not to say that those two aren't good characters, but I don't like them personally, they don't resonate well with me the way Harper and Duke do. That's purely personal thought. I also thinks that Snyder's get a lot of unwarranted hatred (kind of like DCEU's Snyder) and that people grasped at straws to find new reasons to hate him, and his creations (and it's sometimes quite obvious, like in Duke Thomas' hate. Somehow, he is just like Tim... except that he is black and told to Batman that a Robin doesn't need a Batman, which are, like it or not, two major differences to the character, which opens a lot of ways for him to grow and become his own character, with distinct flavour and story).

    Also, in Harper's case, Batman and Robin Eternal was poorly received, while I found it to be an excellent story, with a clear double message : one own worth isn't determined by his or her genetic potential and ancestry (Dick was and is a better hero than Harper because of his training, and no amount of potential can change that, Cassandra Cain isn't a remorseless killer, despite her father and his training, etc.) and a lesson in carefulness (sometimes, being too clever is a bad thing, which Batman learnt when his bargain costed a young girl and boy their mother and mentally scarred another young girl). I hope that, someday, Harper will return as Bluebird, possibly more seasoned and in a more supporting role, but I think that Spoiler, Orphan and her would make an absolutely wonderful trio to see acting together, the weaknesses of each being more than compensated by their strength.
    People hate Duke and Harper because they are new characters who some believe are stepping on other peoples toes. The same was the case with Damian when he was introduced. Especially when those characters whose toes are being stepped are struggling characters. Basically the rational is that Tim could be used in whatever stories Duke is appearing in.

    There is also the argument that they are unoriginal and are derivative of already existing characters which lets face it is true [though that is also true of lots of other successful comic characters]

    You might have enjoyed B&RE but it was a mistake to feature Harper so heavily in a book that was celebrating 75yrs of Robin.
    It was an insult. It's like Happy Birthday Dick yet all the banners and the cake say Harper. It was a stupid misguided move which back fired and Harper as a character took a lot of flak for this.

    Personally I am meh on Harper but I quite like Duke and will like to see where his story goes.

    On the subject of Steph and what she has that others say harper don't. I enjoy Steph, I like her interactions with and the dynamic she adds to the Batfamily. She is fun to read and that is the most important thing to me as a reader. How the character makes me feel. Whether a character holds my interest.
    I find Steph interesting, Harper not so much.
    Last edited by dietrich; 01-09-2017 at 01:57 AM.

  8. #203
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    It's a lot more complicated than ''people hate Harper because she's new.'

    The problem with Harper, and to a lesser extent Duke, is that their development was not organic. They were so obviously created to be writer's pets that it stuck out like a sore thumb, and so their accomplishments never felt earned. In contrast, a character like Stephanie Brown was created to fulfill a specific story need, to help catch Cluemaster when he stopped leaving clues, and happened to be received well enough to be brought back.

  9. #204
    I am a diamond, Ms. Pryde millernumber1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    It's a lot more complicated than ''people hate Harper because she's new.'

    The problem with Harper, and to a lesser extent Duke, is that their development was not organic. They were so obviously created to be writer's pets that it stuck out like a sore thumb, and so their accomplishments never felt earned. In contrast, a character like Stephanie Brown was created to fulfill a specific story need, to help catch Cluemaster when he stopped leaving clues, and happened to be received well enough to be brought back.
    That's an interesting point. As someone who likes both Harper and Duke a bit, I'll have to look at their origins again. Harper I liked as a non-costumed figure who was inspired by the Bat - and I like her in that role again now. And her story of becoming Bluebird to save her brother I thought was pretty solid. Duke...I really dislike Zero Year, and so I don't remember it very well, but it's likely very true that his development doesn't seem like it arises from an in-universe narrative need.
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  10. #205
    Incredible Member Supermutant2099's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sunofdarkchild View Post
    It's a lot more complicated than ''people hate Harper because she's new.'

    The problem with Harper, and to a lesser extent Duke, is that their development was not organic. They were so obviously created to be writer's pets that it stuck out like a sore thumb, and so their accomplishments never felt earned. In contrast, a character like Stephanie Brown was created to fulfill a specific story need, to help catch Cluemaster when he stopped leaving clues, and happened to be received well enough to be brought back.
    Its roman reigns syndrome. Batman team shoving Harper, Damien, Duke down our throats and we don't really care about them. We rather see characters like Stephanie, Tim, Cass. Three newer characters are not anywhere near well liked.

  11. #206
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supermutant2099 View Post
    Its roman reigns syndrome. Batman team shoving Harper, Damien, Duke down our throats and we don't really care about them. We rather see characters like Stephanie, Tim, Cass. Three newer characters are not anywhere near well liked.
    Don't lump Damian in with them. Damian came in as a heel, then they put him in an enjoyable tag and he got over. He was the anti-Harper and Duke.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 02-14-2018 at 04:37 PM.

  12. #207
    Mighty Member WhipWhirlwind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Don't lump Damian in with them. Damian came in as a heel, and they they put him in an enjoyable tag and he got over. He was the anti-Harper and Duke.
    Agreed. If anything Tim fans are just grumpy that Damian forced DC into a decision they needed to make (and fucked up) anyway. Tim brought very little to the table as "Robin: Batman's partner" and Damian did, especially in the context of where Morrison was going.

  13. #208
    Spectacular Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supermutant2099 View Post
    Its roman reigns syndrome. Batman team shoving Harper, Damien, Duke down our throats and we don't really care about them. We rather see characters like Stephanie, Tim, Cass. Three newer characters are not anywhere near well liked.
    Damian is the current Robin (and proven to be a pretty profitable one at that). Of course he's gonna get all the attention he has now. Just like every Robin before him, aside from Jason, did during their tenure. The situation is totally different from Harper (which ended up not working out anyway) and Duke (which still has a chance to be something great even if he didn't start out that way)

  14. #209
    Fantastic Member SixSpeedSamurai's Avatar
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    I don't know why, but after I read this and saw Cass rip off Kate's symbol, I think it would be cool for Cass to take up the Batwoman role.

  15. #210
    Spectacular Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixSpeedSamurai View Post
    I don't know why, but after I read this and saw Cass rip off Kate's symbol, I think it would be cool for Cass to take up the Batwoman role.
    That would be awesome. Lord knows she needs a code name that doesn't sound so...ridiculous. And it'd be a neat callback to her time as Batgirl.

    I'm actually really disappointed things went the way they did for Kate. Pretty much everything I was afraid would happen, happened.

    I can't really fault Kate for doing what she did. I probably would have been right behind Luke and Jean Paul in supporting her. But damn if her totally unapologetic attitude towards the whole thing didn't make me instantly start disliking her. We get it Kate. You did what you had to do. But at least act like you didn't wanna do it. Don't make it so obvious that you're going down the path that Future Tim warned everyone about.

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