Detective Comics #947 preview/discussion (spoilers!)

[dietrich]

Love for a character is the whole reason one reads hundreds or thousands of comics. The fact that you disagree with that love or appreciation does not make the analysis invalid.

1, Never said I disagree with that love or appreciation. There are character's I love and I know for a fact that that love and devotion often leads to bias on my part. That's human.
2, It doesn't make it devoid of of bias either. It's an opinion they gave theirs and I gave mine based on the tops defenders of this arc and their history/prior comments on this site.

[Caivu]

I also think it would be cool to see how the Team and the Birds of Prey might work together since they're both vigilante teams in Gotham. Batwoman and Black Canary would probably get along well, but I'm curious to see how Kate might react to Helena (and see more of Batman's reaction to Huntress).

I can easily see Kate being a fan of Black Canary's music. And I agree about Huntress; pre-Flashpoint the two of them had fairly similar personalities, and that's still sort of the case.

I'd like to see what Damian makes of this group and what the group thinks of Damian. Especially given his status as the current Robin.

I want to know what he'd make of Cass in particular. Clayface, too. And he and Kate being acknowledged as cousins on-panel is something that still needs to happen sometime.

[RedQueen]

I would like to see Tynion work more on developing the relationships between the characters in this book and the rest of the Batfamily.

I know Damian and Babs are kind of...off doing their own thing, but it would be nice to see them show up in this book and interact with the rest of the team. Maybe see the Batgirl's together and having bonding moments with each other that harkens back to Babs mentoring them Post-Crisis.

I also think it would be cool to see how the Team and the Birds of Prey might work together since they're both vigilante teams in Gotham. Batwoman and Black Canary would probably get along well, but I'm curious to see how Kate might react to Helena (and see more of Batman's reaction to Huntress).

I'd like to see what Damian makes of this group and what the group thinks of Damian. Especially given his status as the current Robin.

Agreed. When a Batfam team works only with a couple of members it feels kind of insular, i guess? Add in the fact that these people are actually new to the Batfam in this continuity and Kate's relationship with the Batfam is finally getting explored even though she's Bruce's relation, it kind of lacks the history so having some occasional presence of other members can really make the difference. I don't think it's a necessity or necessary but like Tim "died" and none of other Batfam members really blinked except the people in Detective Comics when the old schoolers have their histories with him as well. I'm totally cool having a main team and it's completely warranted in whatever circumstances but also other characters making an occasional appearance really allows the depth of the Batfam to actually be explored.

I'd really like to see Damian interact with everyone. He'd probably just school everyone and him and Cass would be interesting. The Birds would be great for an appearance.

[godisawesome]

See, I think all this is part of the point. I don't think the VS's message, on the whole, is very rational, nor are the reasons for the other members joining. But I don't think they're supposed to be rational. Not to us, anyway.

Look what the First Victim did with Steph: they found someone close to Batman who was hurting, and got into her head and made Batman the target of her anger. I think we're supposed to infer that they did that with the other Victims as well, specifically because Batman's not the most rational direction for them to lash out at. The First Victim seems like they're using the others for their own gain, a concept that's strengthened by the fact that no one know the First Victim's identity at all. Batman can't even recall them, which is a clue that the FV isn't actually victim of him. And the FV repeatedly dodges the identity question, too.

The FV is just finding a bunch of people who could reasonably be twisted into taking down Batman, and pointing them in that direction.

The story might not state all this explicitly, but I don't think any of this is straining the text at all.



It is flawed, you're right. But it's supposed to be. The story doesn't present that argument as correct. At least not completely.

I agree with the reasoning. It's just funny that Tynion, in order too get maximum impact out of the central conflict and drama of the arc, had to use a lot of pseudo-real world logic for the rebuttal. You see, I'd argue that the in-story rebuttal from Luke is stronger to readers outside of Gotham, but really, if you lived in a world where a guy could get superpowers after surviving a homicidal clowns gas attack and then the victim could slip through the he cracks because it's just not exceptional... Well, frankly, the occaisional miscarriage of justice, while still horrible, would probably not be first on your mind.

Don't get me wrong; Tynion made decisions that showcased the dramatic potential of the driving question. The whole "we don't live in that world, Steph" and "but shouldn't we?" Is actually damn powerful. But it also showed the issues with trying to tackle the question in comics; comic world's are tailored to justify vigilantes and superheroes. As such, the internal logic for trying to blame heroes for villains turns totally irrational, which is why Tynion had to obfuscate that fact a bit. Steph is supposed to be somewhat irrational during this issue, but not totally devoid of logic, so she uses real world logic that will appeal to readers but would strike in world characters as insane. So Tynion had to have Luke use real world logic to justify their vigilantism.

Still, this was very well written, and it still marks Tynion as being a very ambitious writer with characters who frankly need an ambitious writer. Tim and Steph are now in more interesting and mysterious places than they ever were in the New 52; other writers tried to change up the status quo with some of the stuff in New 52 Teen Titans and Catwoman, but either failed to execute their plans (Steph in Catwoman) or created a world so full of 90's era shocks there was no chance for change to be taken seriously (Tim in Teen Titans). Tynion's writing the cast with a focus on quieter, more intimate moments punctuated by action set pieces so that climaxes have dramatic weight; heck, even Azrael's cameo was based off quiet character building that made him ripping out a flaming sword awesome. That makes me very excited about Cass in the upcoming arc.

Also, a part of me can't help but hope that Steph will stabilize as a champion of the police doing their job and more conservative vigil inmate tactics that make sense... While a returned Tim, rejuvenated to be more Pre-Flashpoint friendly, maybe keeps some Machiavellian traits, so that the two can have some conflict and philosophical differences.

[WhipWhirlwind]

Yeah I have no issues with this. It lines up very closely with Steph as she was written by Dixon, even if she's a bit dramatic (which makes sense with Tim's recent passing).

Its a question that needs to be raised, treating the disease not the symptom, and I like that Tim and Steph are looking at that in different ways. Issue is Steph is being irrational in the "batman is the problem" area.

On the other hand, she can realize that but still think Batman is flawed in not focusing on more non costumed ways to help people.

[millernumber1]

1, Never said I disagree with that love or appreciation. There are character's I love and I know for a fact that that love and devotion often leads to bias on my part. That's human.
2, It doesn't make it devoid of of bias either. It's an opinion they gave theirs and I gave mine based on the tops defenders of this arc and their history/prior comments on this site.

Well, when you say that someone who loves Steph is blind to criticism, that is an attempt to invalidate their analysis. Does loving Steph as a character make one more likely to look for the positive in a story starring Steph? Absolutely. But that is not the same as being blind.

[dietrich]

Well, when you say that someone who loves Steph is blind to criticism, that is an attempt to invalidate their analysis. Does loving Steph as a character make one more likely to look for the positive in a story starring Steph? Absolutely. But that is not the same as being blind.

Fine then I believe, some are putting a positive spin on an otherwise disappointing development/story arc due to their devotion and love for the character in question.

Fixed it.

[JasonTodd428]

Well, when you say that someone who loves Steph is blind to criticism, that is an attempt to invalidate their analysis. Does loving Steph as a character make one more likely to look for the positive in a story starring Steph? Absolutely. But that is not the same as being blind.

That depends on the person involved. While not everyone who is a fan of a character is blind to the faults in a book involving said character there are people who let their love for a character completely blind them to faults in a title. I've seen it happen quite a lot among certain posters here who are so into a character that they ignore all faults in a book simply because its a book staring their favorite. Heck, there are even people who buy a bad title just to support their favorite simple because its there and having a badly done title starring their favorite is better than no title at all.

[millernumber1]

Fine then I believe, some are putting a positive spin on an otherwise disappointing development/story arc due to their devotion and love for the character in question.

Fixed it.

I mean, I believe that it's a difficult story, even for those of us who are enjoying it, because it means that Steph is now on the margins, not a central member of the team. I don't think we're secretly disappointed and pretending to be positive about it, though. I genuinely love where Tynion has taken Steph in this arc, even as I am sad for her.

[millernumber1]

That depends on the person involved. While not everyone who is a fan of a character is blind to the faults in a book involving said character there are people who let their love for a character completely blind them to faults in a title. I've seen it happen quite a lot among certain posters here who are so into a character that they ignore all faults in a book simply because its a book staring their favorite. Heck there are even people who buy a bad title just to support their favorite simple because its there.

Interesting. I admit that I am very much in the group of people who buy titles for a character - I bought a lot of Batgirl this year, even though I didn't like the creative team at all, because they were putting Steph in the stories. But I would freely admit that those stories weren't very high quality, even if I enjoyed Steph's part in them.

[JasonTodd428]

Interesting. I admit that I am very much in the group of people who buy titles for a character - I bought a lot of Batgirl this year, even though I didn't like the creative team at all, because they were putting Steph in the stories. But I would freely admit that those stories weren't very high quality, even if I enjoyed Steph's part in them.

Yeah, I'm also in the group that buys titles mainly for characters (although I also do follow certain creatives). The thing is there are people out there that really do let love of a character or a writer blind them. *shrug* Not saying that anyone here fits into that category though. You all seem to just be enjoying this book even with the flaws and I can't disagree with anyone who is enjoying a book as much as all of you seem to be.

[dietrich]

I mean, I believe that it's a difficult story, even for those of us who are enjoying it, because it means that Steph is now on the margins, not a central member of the team. I don't think we're secretly disappointed and pretending to be positive about it, though. I genuinely love where Tynion has taken Steph in this arc, even as I am sad for her.

Again I never said fans were secretly disappointed or pretending to be positive. Really does feels like you are reading things into my comments which just aren't there.

If you love this direction that's okay there is no right or wrong here. I believe my 1st comment on here was that I liked it though it felt like it came out of left field.

[millernumber1]

Yeah, I'm also in the group that buys titles mainly for characters (although I also do follow certain creatives). The thing is there are people out there that really do let love of a character or a writer blind them. *shrug* Not saying that anyone here fits into that category though. You all seem to just be enjoying this book even with the flaws and I can't disagree with anyone who is enjoying a book as much as all of you seem to be.

I mean, with dozens of characters, and almost a century of content, you have to narrow your focus down, and characters and creative teams are a good way to do so. I've seen the character partisans, and I admit sometimes it's tempting to join them, but I don't think that it helps to truly love a character if you love them blindly.

Again I never said fans were secretly disappointed or pretending to be positive. Really does feels like you are reading things into my comments which just aren't there.

If you love this direction that's okay there is no right or wrong here. I believe my 1st comment on here was that I liked it though it felt like it came out of left field.

Sorry, not trying to misread you, just responding to what I think I'm reading. If I'm wrong about what you're saying, I do not intend to misconstrue you.

[darkseidpwns]

What do you think Tim saw at the end?

A picture of Damian with the following caption "best Robin".

[JasonTodd428]

I mean, with dozens of characters, and almost a century of content, you have to narrow your focus down, and characters and creative teams are a good way to do so. I've seen the character partisans, and I admit sometimes it's tempting to join them, but I don't think that it helps to truly love a character if you love them blindly.

It's tempting to join in but I don't really see that it helps the characters to love them blindly either. It doesn't always work but I do try really hard not to let my love for a character blind me to flaws in a book. In any case I'm glad there are people who like this book even if I don't. I'm just annoyed that a book that seemed to be right up my alley and that included a lot of characters I normal enjoy just turned out to be a disappointment to me.