Detective Comics #947 preview/discussion (spoilers!)

[Godlike13]

Children don't oversee the adults. One overemotional teenager, who's throwing a tantrum becuse she lost a boy she dated for a couple months, is in no position to actually oversee Batman or an other superhero.

[rev516]

^Agreed. Bruce knows what he's doing. He doesn't need to be 'watched' and reminded that he needs to do 'better'. He does that himself.

[millernumber1]

I must be honest, while Stephanie Brown has always been one of my favourite members of the Bat-family, ever since she was reintroduced in the post-Flashpoint DC Universe first as a quasi-inside joke in Batgirl Future's End (incidentally one of the most frustrating reading experiences of that year) and then officially in Batman Eternal, my enthusiasm wasn't actually rekindled as much as it could have. Not that I didn't enjoy reading her exploits when she was handled by competent writers, like when she found a place in Genevieve Valentine's Catwoman run and my appreciation for that comic somehow managed to rise even more. But just like with Cyborg-Justice-League-founding-member, the forced absence of her consolidated history sometimes made me see her as a different character than the one I had so appreciated in the pages of Robin, Batgirl, etc. Not least because the Snyder-Tynion duo opted to rekindle the Drake-Brown romance almost from the start (really, they find themselves in the same room for the first time and BAM! you know that they will end together) and Tim Drake is the epitome of victim of the 2011 reboot, for being deprived of nearly 20 years of character evolution!

Then I realized that the reason I liked her inclusion in Valentine's Catwoman run came from being able to see her trying (and ultimately being able) to get by in a new kind of situation, one that had no real equivalent in her pre-reboot career. Since I didn't see her as the same character, it made sense for this new Steph to find niches in the Bat-family line that were new territory for her. And, despite always having issues with Tynion's writing style, the incredible swerve the character has taken with the conclusion of this last Detective Comics story arc is exactly more of what I was looking for when it comes to Steph's future endeavours.

An online critic I found by chance while browsing for a completely unrelated subject summarized my thoughts about the new window that has opened for Ms. Brown better than I'd be able to.

"Tynion has stated that he believes Steph fills a void in Gotham that no other character really can, and I’m fairly certain that this is what he was getting at. The Bat Family operates with zero oversight, and while that does make them far more effective and efficient, it also means that when they screw up the only people around to punish them or set things right are themselves.

So, what if Spoiler was that oversight? What if she watched them to make sure they didn’t put innocents in jeopardy? Acted as their conscience, of a sort. She’s the one keeping tabs on them. A constant reminder that they need to do and be better.

And, of course, an unintentional motivator towards that end.

It’s even more clever than I’m making it sound, actually. If Batman, and by extension everyone else around him, are Gotham’s “Watchful Guardians”, then, heh, who watches the Watchmen?

All of this Rebirth/Watchmen stuff just keeps popping up more and more, huh?"

(Griffin, Detective Comics Sticks The Landing Yet Again, 12/29/2016)

I love that article, by one of our own posters here!

Children don't oversee the adults. One overemotional teenager, who's throwing a tantrum becuse she lost a boy she dated for a couple months, is in no position to actually oversee Batman or an other superhero.

^Agreed. Bruce knows what he's doing. He doesn't need to be 'watched' and reminded that he needs to do 'better'. He does that himself.

I think that overestimate's Batman's ability to see outside of his own mission. I disagree that Steph is "just" a tantrum thrower - and Batman doesn't treat her as such, I think importantly. There's a reason all of the flashbacks with Tim in this arc were so important to the conclusion.

[Powertool]

Children don't oversee the adults. One overemotional teenager, who's throwing a tantrum becuse she lost a boy she dated for a couple months, is in no position to actually oversee Batman or an other superhero.

As David Mazzucchelli (yes, that Mazzucchelli) once said in an interview about his work on Batman Year One, there's absolutely nothing adult in the concept of Batman, a character that for its whole existence has wavered between being a child's power fantasy and an adolescent's power fantasy. (Fictional) age has jack squat to do with character roles in the economy of a comic book.

[Agent Z]

@Powertool the idea of one of the Batfsmily being oversight for Bruce sounds interesting but I'm not sure if Steph is in the right place emotionally at the moment.

[Godlike13]

There is a multitude of reasons beyond her age that the idea of Spoiler overseeing Batman, or any other superhero (even the Teen Titans), falls flat on its face.

[SicariiDC]

There is a multitude of reasons beyond her age that the idea of Spoiler overseeing Batman, or any other superhero (even the Teen Titans), falls flat on its face.

Agreed.

I'm a Batman fan, not necessarily every associate in the family. That said, I gotta ask a question to folks more informed than me: what has Steph ever done? Like really accomplished?

To my knowledge, she was Batgirl for a bit, in Robin books for a while, took over as Robin for like a weekend until she imploded because of her insecurities and caused War Games. Which story quality aside, was a complete disaster. Especially as a hero.

Now with the reboots, retcons, rebirths, where does that leave Stephanie Brown? I mean, where does she even get off acting better or holier than thou? Is my thought...I know she has fans, and female heroes are important to have, but in actual comic books, as a character, what has she ever done?

[Caivu]

Now with the reboots, retcons, rebirths, where does that leave Stephanie Brown? I mean, where does she even get off acting better or holier than thou? Is my thought...I know she has fans, and female heroes are important to have, but in actual comic books, as a character, what has she ever done?

If the narrative were treating her point as legitimate, I could see why this would be a problem, but it's not. Not entirely, anyway. She's clearly well-intentioned, but I think it's clear that she's being incredibly naive, as well. Look at all the alternative possibilities she lists for everyone, for example. They sound good, but are all largely unrealistic.

I definitely wouldn't agree she's acting like she's above anyone or holier-than-thou, but even assuming she is, so what? She's upset. Are characters not allowed to make bad decisions or something, especially when they're emotionally compromised?

[Powertool]

I'm a Batman fan, not necessarily every associate in the family. That said, I gotta ask a question to folks more informed than me: what has Steph ever done? Like really accomplished?

Using the "real accomplishments" (ah ah!) of a character from an American-style serialized superhero comic book and using them to prove his/her worth compared to another one is a very shaky proposition. After all, what has Batman "really accomplished" in 77 years of editorial history? Gotham City becomes a more dangerous place with each passing year and no member of his rogues' gallery ever walks down a lasting path of redemption, while the few that "take their leave" in the lethal sense are very often resurrected more violent and dangerous than ever by new writers who want to try their hand with old toys. You can find no greatest argument against the Bat-God trope than talking the whole editorial life of the character as a whole! Unless Bruce is classified as quite an @$$holish god...

[ProgmanX]

There is a multitude of reasons beyond her age that the idea of Spoiler overseeing Batman, or any other superhero (even the Teen Titans), falls flat on its face.

As the author of the quoted article, I wasn't implying that she'd be literally overseeing them in any official or recognized capacity. That's rather absurd. She's a 17 year old girl, grieving and in a lot of pain. She's in no position to be objective.

It's that she would be watching, and they know she's watching, and sometimes just the knowledge of that is more than enough to motivate someone to act differently. If Steph represents the more down-to-earth voice, yet ultimately naive, of Gotham's citizens, then what she's aiming for is a goal worth pursuing. Even if it's not quite possible right now. Working to make it possible is a something they really should be doing, and proving that to Steph also proves it to Gotham by extension. Hope that clears things up.

[Frontier]

Isn't part of Gordon's job keeping Batman honest? Or is he too much of an enabler to really function that way? I still feel like Jim should have had a bigger role in this arc then he did.

I know it's silly to ponder it, given how obvious it is that she hasn't thought this through very well, but I wonder what Steph's response to all the vigilantism outside of Gotham is?

I think that overestimate's Batman's ability to see outside of his own mission. I disagree that Steph is "just" a tantrum thrower - and Batman doesn't treat her as such, I think importantly. There's a reason all of the flashbacks with Tim in this arc were so important to the conclusion.

I don't know, I think Batman can be very self-aware of the flaws and consequences of his mission, or at least he can be written that way (and was in this arc).

Of course, he can also be written as being absolutely blindly driven by it, so it depends a lot on the writer.

And then there's the fact that Batman's lost another Robin, which almost always leads to a major self-doubt phase.

[Godlike13]

Who cares if she's watching though. She holds no actual power and isn't in a position to actually do anything. Her capability to watch them is even questionable. Plus shes not an elected official, she no more represents Gotham's citizens than Batman. She's a hurt teenage who lacks the means and capabilities to keep anything in check, nor is up to her to determine what the line is.

[Frontier]

Who cares if she's watching though. She holds no actual power and isn't in a position to actually do anything. Her capability to watch them is even questionable. Plus she not an elected official, she no more represents Gotham's citizens than Batman. She's a hurt teenage who lacks the means and capabilities to keep anything in check, nor is up to her to determine what the line is.

(Cough)Gordon(Cough).

[Godlike13]

(Cough)Gordon(Cough).

Agreed.
...

[millernumber1]

As David Mazzucchelli (yes, that Mazzucchelli) once said in an interview about his work on Batman Year One, there's absolutely nothing adult in the concept of Batman, a character that for its whole existence has wavered between being a child's power fantasy and an adolescent's power fantasy. (Fictional) age has jack squat to do with character roles in the economy of a comic book.

Well said. I thought about bringing up King's recent development of the idea of Batman as a child's mission in my original response to the current "Steph is terrible, how dare she" argument, but this is a much better articulation of that idea.

@Powertool the idea of one of the Batfsmily being oversight for Bruce sounds interesting but I'm not sure if Steph is in the right place emotionally at the moment.

I think Caivu's articulation is one of the best - that Steph isn't right - but she's not fully wrong, either. And Batman's response is very good, I think - that he's not wrong in his mission, but that it is not right to silence Steph's criticism or actions, and that hopefully they can come together in time, when wounds have healed more.

There is a multitude of reasons beyond her age that the idea of Spoiler overseeing Batman, or any other superhero (even the Teen Titans), falls flat on its face.

Powertool's answer above is an excellent counter to this argument. Now, if you just don't like Spoiler, and think Batman is almost always right, then it's easy to dismiss her. But I think it's very important to point out that Batman doesn't dismiss her.

Agreed.

I'm a Batman fan, not necessarily every associate in the family. That said, I gotta ask a question to folks more informed than me: what has Steph ever done? Like really accomplished?

To my knowledge, she was Batgirl for a bit, in Robin books for a while, took over as Robin for like a weekend until she imploded because of her insecurities and caused War Games. Which story quality aside, was a complete disaster. Especially as a hero.

Now with the reboots, retcons, rebirths, where does that leave Stephanie Brown? I mean, where does she even get off acting better or holier than thou? Is my thought...I know she has fans, and female heroes are important to have, but in actual comic books, as a character, what has she ever done?

Steph brought hope to Gotham and the Batfamily in a very important way. She saved Barbara Gordon from the destructive spiral that she was headed into after the collapse of the Birds of Prey, she humanized Damian Wayne (it's fairly arguable that without the kind of warmth she brought to the character, we wouldn't see Damian interacting with Maya or the Teen Titans in the way he currently is, in terms of how writers approached him). I also think that Powertool's point that "accomplishments" in a comic book hero is not a good metric of their worth is extremely well stated.

As the author of the quoted article, I wasn't implying that she'd be literally overseeing them in any official or recognized capacity. That's rather absurd. She's a 17 year old girl, grieving and in a lot of pain. She's in no position to be objective.

It's that she would be watching, and they know she's watching, and sometimes just the knowledge of that is more than enough to motivate someone to act differently. If Steph represents the more down-to-earth voice, yet ultimately naive, of Gotham's citizens, then what she's aiming for is a goal worth pursuing. Even if it's not quite possible right now. Working to make it possible is a something they really should be doing, and proving that to Steph also proves it to Gotham by extension. Hope that clears things up.

Exactly. Steph's position in Dixon's run on Robin and Batman was that of an outsider, someone who forced Bruce and Tim to question themselves. They didn't do it enough, if you ask me, but I think Tynion's handling of this plotline has been brilliant in giving her that role again, but with much more agency and much less "You're not good enough, Steph."

Isn't part of Gordon's job keeping Batman honest? Or is he too much of an enabler to really function that way? I still feel like Jim should have had a bigger role in this arc then he did.

I know it's silly to ponder it, given how obvious it is that she hasn't thought this through very well, but I wonder what Steph's response to all the vigilantism outside of Gotham is?

I don't know, I think Batman can be very self-aware of the flaws and consequences of his mission, or at least he can be written that way (and was in this arc).

Of course, he can also be written as being absolutely blindly driven by it, so it depends a lot on the writer.

And then there's the fact that Batman's lost another Robin, which almost always leads to a major self-doubt phase.

I'm still not convinced that out-of-Gotham events and characters should be considered that much by Gothamites. It's pretty clear that Gotham runs on different rules and almost a different reality than the rest of the world.

I would love to see Jim in almost any title (except ASB, but that's because other than in Superheavy, I really dislike how Snyder writes Jim - unless we're counting Batman Eternal, but that's at least as much Tynion and the other co-writers, I think), but this title has done a really smart thing in using Renee as the GCPD's point of contact with the team, which emphasizes Kate's centrality. Batman already has tons of awesome hero moments and character work in the series - I think giving the other characters their relationships and network of influence is important for Tec to create its own narrative universe.