Detective Comics #947 preview/discussion (spoilers!)

[prettysunshine9]

I thought this was a really interesting issue! I get why Steph's characterisation may be divisive, so forgive me but I'm gonna rationalise it - or at least try to.

Tynion's made it quite clear that he likes Steph best as Spoiler, or rather, the Spoiler that was written by Chuck Dixon and Jon Lewis. Cass is his fave batgirl, and he's made mention before how he liked Steph's role in the batfam as the girl who was always on the fringes and never fully included in Bruce's crusade. He probably didn't want to write a repeat of Bruce not trusting Stephanie and it backfiring spectacularly over and over again since it's such a tired (and I would argue a wee bit sexist) plotline for her, so instead he went with her actively working against them. Kinda. Dixon and Lewis' Stephanie was a perfectly sweet girl with a stubborn streak a mile wide with a temper to match. She closed herself off when she went through emotional turmoil and became reckless and self righteous when angry. Stephanie, when secrets weren't kept from her, was endlessly understanding of Tim's problems but needed help working through her own, though for a while she didn't understand that and wanted to prove she could do it alone. I think it's the exact same here - only this time, the one person who could help her (Tim) is actually the cause of all her pain. (On a side note, I do feel like a lot of Stephanie's conflict could be resolved through one conversation with Dick, who understands Batman better than Bruce does sometimes, but, alas, I do not think that conversation will ever happen.)

I like the angle that both Stephanie and Bruce are doing what they think Tim would have wanted, Stephanie with the more victim orientated approach versus Batman and co.'s more expansive crime fighting approach. I kinda want to see a scene were Tim sees what has happened in his absence and just kinda face palms at it all.

The point is - Stephanie's not necessarily acting out of character here... I get why people prefer her Batgirl characterisation, since she's more easily reasoned with and has a much more level head whilst being funny and sweet and all the things we love about her. But this is still a Steph which is inherently optimistic. She believes that humanity is capable of thriving without vigilantes, that everyone in that group is capable of achieving a more stable and happy life. I'm not sure she understands that it may not be as fulfilling a life for them however, and is a gap in her thinking which she'll have to deal with in her own time.

I was worried when I saw the spoilers for this issue - I seriously thought Tynion finally messed up - but I thought the execution, Bruce's conversation with Kate especially, showed that Bruce greatly cares for Steph, and he will hear her out at every opportunity she choses. What she's doing is not malicious, and that was what I was most fearful for, so I'm relived that she's doing it out of the belief that the people of Gotham are better than what the others think. Her optimism is going to blasted to pieces eventually in some upcoming storyarc probably, but I hope she comes out of it still hopeful as ever. It's still 'There's Room For Hope In Gotham' Stephanie, just one that's exerting it in a different way.

On a sightly unrelated note, I let out a small 'oh noooooo' at Tim and Stephanie's snapchat image. How sad! And then, I let out an even louder one when Tim was looking at the same photograph! The shipper in me died a little at the fact that she's his biggest motivations to escape. *Shakes fist at sky* Darn you DC! Let them go to college and have a mini-series of their (ft Cass ofc) shenanigans! We've had plenty of high school hijinks, let them go to college darn it!!!

Anyway, I don't know if any of what I wrote above changed people's minds about the issue, but I hope that I explained well why I thought it was an interesting issue. The villains certainly could have been a bit more compelling, and I'm still waiting for Cass to have a bit more to do in her own arc, but I really felt for the team, and am ready for Batwoman's solo to bring in the new year!

[Waterfall]

I am absolutely disappointed in the direction Tynion went with, this book dropped a lot in quality. Such a shame with the team concept too.....

I was okay with pointless Tim wanking and the mistreatment of Kate's father but Steph's character massacre really broke the camel's neck for me.

[millernumber1]

I thought this was a really interesting issue! I get why Steph's characterisation may be divisive, so forgive me but I'm gonna rationalise it - or at least try to.

Tynion's made it quite clear that he likes Steph best as Spoiler, or rather, the Spoiler that was written by Chuck Dixon and Jon Lewis. Cass is his fave batgirl, and he's made mention before how he liked Steph's role in the batfam as the girl who was always on the fringes and never fully included in Bruce's crusade. He probably didn't want to write a repeat of Bruce not trusting Stephanie and it backfiring spectacularly over and over again since it's such a tired (and I would argue a wee bit sexist) plotline for her, so instead he went with her actively working against them. Kinda. Dixon and Lewis' Stephanie was a perfectly sweet girl with a stubborn streak a mile wide with a temper to match. She closed herself off when she went through emotional turmoil and became reckless and self righteous when angry. Stephanie, when secrets weren't kept from her, was endlessly understanding of Tim's problems but needed help working through her own, though for a while she didn't understand that and wanted to prove she could do it alone. I think it's the exact same here - only this time, the one person who could help her (Tim) is actually the cause of all her pain. (On a side note, I do feel like a lot of Stephanie's conflict could be resolved through one conversation with Dick, who understands Batman better than Bruce does sometimes, but, alas, I do not think that conversation will ever happen.)

I like the angle that both Stephanie and Bruce are doing what they think Tim would have wanted, Stephanie with the more victim orientated approach versus Batman and co.'s more expansive crime fighting approach. I kinda want to see a scene were Tim sees what has happened in his absence and just kinda face palms at it all.

The point is - Stephanie's not necessarily acting out of character here... I get why people prefer her Batgirl characterisation, since she's more easily reasoned with and has a much more level head whilst being funny and sweet and all the things we love about her. But this is still a Steph which is inherently optimistic. She believes that humanity is capable of thriving without vigilantes, that everyone in that group is capable of achieving a more stable and happy life. I'm not she gets though that it may not be as fulfilling for them is a gap which she'll have to deal with in her own time.

I was worried when I saw the spoilers for this issue - I seriously thought Tynion finally messed up - but I thought the execution, Bruce's conversation with Kate especially, showed that Bruce greatly cares for Steph, and he will hear her out at every opportunity she choses. What she's doing is not malicious, and that was what I was most fearful for, so I'm relived that she's doing it out of the belief that the people of Gotham are better than what the others think. Her optimism is going to blasted to pieces eventually in some upcoming storyarc probably, but I hope she comes out of it still hopeful as ever. It's still 'There's Room For Hope In Gotham' Stephanie, just one that's exerting it in a different way.

On a sightly unrelated note, I let out a small 'oh noooooo' at Tim and Stephanie's snapchat image. How sad! And then, I let out an even louder one when Tim was looking at the same photograph! The shipper in me died a little at the fact that she's his biggest motivations to escape. *Shakes fist at sky* Darn you DC! Let them go to college and have a mini-series of their (ft Cass ofc) shenanigans! We've had plenty of high school hijinks, let them go to college darn it!!!

Anyway, I don't know if any of what I wrote above changed people's minds about the issue, but I hope that I explained well why I thought it was an interesting issue. The villains certainly could have been a bit more compelling, and I'm still waiting for Cass to have a bit more to do in her own arc, but I really felt for the team, and am ready for Batwoman's solo to bring in the new year!

Nice take! I especially love the idea for a TimStephCass college shenanigans series.

But really, I agree with you - I think this is Steph being restored to Dixon-era status quo, but giving her the choice, instead of playing the "You're not good enough" card.

[Caivu]

Again, why? It is narratively unsatisfying to have a villain single out a hero beforehand, know the hero's secret identity, know exactly what to say to make the hero turn against her friends, and for all that to occur when there is 0 connection between the villain and the hero.

The First Victim repeatedly mentions that they had been planning this whole thing for years. They just needed the final piece, which ended up being Steph.

The implication is that the FV took notice of the team's activities and also noticed when Tim wasn't around anymore. Since there were two girls on the team of a similar age to him, it's completely reasonable for the FV to suspect he may have been romantically involved with one of them, and so decided to keep tabs on them. Steph being in a state of mourning would've been apparent, and so that's why she was targeted. Not because of Tim specifically, but because she's young and in an emotionally vulnerable spot, ripe for manipulation.

True, this requires some inferences, but I don't think it's unreasonable that that's what happened.

[Caivu]

I am absolutely disappointed in the direction Tynion went with, this book dropped a lot in quality. Such a shame with the team concept too.....

I was okay with pointless Tim wanking and the mistreatment of Kate's father but Steph's character massacre really broke the camel's neck for me.

She's really not being "character massacred". It's pretty safe to say she's not in an emotionally great place right now, so the way she's acting makes sense. And even then, she still has an overarching optimism to what she's doing.

[millernumber1]

She's really not being "character massacred". It's pretty safe to say she's not in an emotionally great place right now, so the way she's acting makes sense. And even then, she still has an overarching optimism to what she's doing.

I don't think it's a disservice to Steph either - I think Tynion really is building her a long-term arc, hopefully one that will culminate in the Rebirth finale (or hopefully sooner? Since I want her to be a main part of the book again before 1.5 years).

[Aahz]

I am absolutely disappointed in the direction Tynion went with, this book dropped a lot in quality. Such a shame with the team concept too.....

Yeah, I'm way more intersted in a Tim-Steph-Cass-team than in Kate-Luke-Azrael-Clayface.

[Supermutant2099]

Really DC REALLY? This just another fail espically if steph gone for who knows how long. Why? This arc was really dumb and the way it ends is horrible. I'm not sure I want to read it after batwoman arc. Just switch to that book once it comes out.

[bat_girl_cc]

Lol, this issue was a mixure of feelings really, it was cool, sad, and funny all at once...i actualy like how they found a way to "beat" Cass without having to resort to PIS/WIS, and its pretty simple really, all it takes is one member of the family to turn on her and she's uncapable of trying to fight back or even defending herself, that much was pretty obvious and self-explanatory on this issue, and we already saw it on Batman and Robin Eternal when Dick had to "save" Cass from getting tased by Harper since Cass wouldn't move out of the way, and later she tased herself and Harper lol.
Now, Steph did made a point, but its going to be hard for her to be in good terms with the others again (save from Cass and Harper, who adore her) but i guess we'll see that play out on the next issue.

[Caivu]

Really DC REALLY? This just another fail espically if steph gone for who knows how long. Why? This arc was really dumb and the way it ends is horrible. I'm not sure I want to read it after batwoman arc. Just switch to that book once it comes out.

What was bad about it?

And I don't think Steph is going to be gone for a significant period if time. She just won't be part of the team for a while.

[millernumber1]

What was bad about it?

And I don't think Steph is going to be gone for a significant period if time. She just won't be part of the team for a while.

I think it's pretty clear that a lot of Steph fans don't like this arc's direction for Steph. I personally think it's really intelligent, but I do see the problem with putting two beloved characters (Steph and Batman) at odds, and marginalizing Steph from the Batfamily. I trust Tynion to make it a good story right now, but I think I see the problem - after over 20 years of DC marginalizing Steph, a lot of Steph fans don't trust DC to follow through with building the character up when she's marginalized.

[sunofdarkchild]

I think it's pretty clear that a lot of Steph fans don't like this arc's direction for Steph. I personally think it's really intelligent, but I do see the problem with putting two beloved characters (Steph and Batman) at odds, and marginalizing Steph from the Batfamily. I trust Tynion to make it a good story right now, but I think I see the problem - after over 20 years of DC marginalizing Steph, a lot of Steph fans don't trust DC to follow through with building the character up when she's marginalized.

If it had more build-up I'd agree. But the only time we've seen Steph and Bruce bond at all was the hug after Tim died. That lessens the emotional impact. The same goes for her relationships with Cass and Tim. Instead we get brand-new villains who aren't particularly competent like Bane was who happen to know her secret id and exactly what to say to push her buttons. Individual scenes are good. The philosophical arguments are good. But the character was not built up before being torn down. I can't say that it's out of character for Steph, because she hasn't has enough space or development until now to say whether it is or isn't!

[millernumber1]

If it had more build-up I'd agree. But the only time we've seen Steph and Bruce bond at all was the hug after Tim died. That lessens the emotional impact. The same goes for her relationships with Cass and Tim. Instead we get brand-new villains who aren't particularly competent like Bane was who happen to know her secret id and exactly what to say to push her buttons. Individual scenes are good. The philosophical arguments are good. But the character was not built up before being torn down. I can't say that it's out of character for Steph, because she hasn't has enough space or development until now to say whether it is or isn't!

I mean, I can't necessarily argue with you that it wasn't built up - but I kind of take it as read that since Tynion loves Dixon, he imagines the setup being basically like Dixon's run, between Batman and Robin Eternal and Detective Comics 934. What we do see - Steph and Tim's interactions in the first arc (and Cass), felt like enough for me to invest my pre-Flashpoint feelings in their characters and relationship.

I do think that it's in character given how Tynion has built Steph up and deliberately referenced her arc in Eternal in this arc. Steph is angry, determined, but not very trusting, especially of Batman. I trust Batman, but I completely see why she doesn't, after seeing how he missed Tim's desires, and couldn't save Tim (though that's more survivor's guilt and grieving issues that Steph or Bruce being right). That's why I thought it was so important that Bruce said he was wrong to not let the team grieve at the end of this issue.

[Caivu]

I can't say that it's out of character for Steph, because she hasn't has enough space or development until now to say whether it is or isn't!

Sure she has. Even back in Batman Eternal she questioned whether or not to remain a vigilante. This arc showed a different angle on that, but the basic idea has been there a while. We've seen how Tim's loss shattered hershattered her and how close and how close they were beforehand. And we've seen in the first arc that she has some authority issues. All those come into play in this arc.

[Godlike13]

Alright, i tap. I think im done with this book. Between the button pushing and Batman berating this is just not for me. And its not like i was enjoying this new 52, no fun, depressing Steph to begin with, so whatever. Cry me a river Spoiler.