The Origin of Mr.El/Superdad

[Sacred Knight]

I don't think there's anything wrong with Morrison's version being too specific. Greatness doesn't need to be tampered with anyway. It wasn't perfect, but it was great. And the vision can be built upon by other writers with their own way of doing things just the same. Look at Greg Pak. He stuck with Morrison's vision more and better than anyone else but he still had his own distinct feel, his own way of doing things. So I definitely don't think Superman needs some generic origin tale as a platform. Just another reason that I hope they consider an ongoing featuring another Kal-El on another Earth, based heavily on the New 52 beginnings. It'd be a damn shame for Volume 2 of Action Comics to go to a complete waste.

[Flash Gordon]

I personally don't find Secret Origin to be a healthy running start for a character at all. Really bad story and really bland foundation.

[Ascended]

I gotta disagree. It's certainly soulless as six issues of nostalgia masturbation, but it does have a personality and a defined take on Superman and his world. And that take is "Golly gosh gol-darn, I'm but a simple awed farmer boy bumpkin with the strength of a billion exploding stars, but even I can tell you slick east-coast folks need a talk about neeing to Just Say No to cynicism". And then he teaches them you have to be nice to each other even in the ding-dang city by punching a robot into space. It absolutely communicates an idea of who Superman fundamentally is and what he's about, and that idea is that he's a naive goofball in both his identities who's here to teach us to smile some more. There's good moments to be sure, good Superman character moments included, but those aren't nearly enough in the face of the larger framework to make me think most prospective readers won't look at it and go "well, turns out his base personality is pretty much exactly as boring as I'd always heard, better go never read anything about him ever again". Granted not even Johns' other stuff followed that, but it's maybe the worst base possible for a remotely modern Superman to build off of if you're trying to sell him as an interesting character.

Hopefully it'll be out the window post-merger - if there's aspects of both of them, it shouldn't follow one guy's setup entirely, especially when it's one that explicitly rules out every other aspect of the New 52 guy's existence. I hear Johns was talking with Waid a little while back, maybe Birthright could finally be clawed back? I think it's still their most critically successful origin for him, and it'd definitely be a happy medium between the two versions in play.

First off; its rare that you and I are on different sides of a debate. This is fun.

Secondly; Im not saying SO is a good story. Its easily the worst origin, and one of the worst stories, I have ever had the misfortune of reading. If I had my way they'd be using Morrison's Action origin, or failing that the pre-Metropolis material from Birthright. Left to my own devices I'd have DC buy every Secret Origin discount-bin floppy issue and trade collection and launch them all into the sun, because I dont even want the ashes left on this planet.

However, its going to be SO, and all Im saying is that Superlad is right and there *might* be a silver lining, assuming the creators keep going in the same direction they have been.

SO was the last official origin in post-Crisis. So this is the origin that Superdad has had since his return; we're just now finally cementing the fact. And the books have been good (at least Tomasi's Superman anyway) so clearly using SO isnt hurting the quality.

Think of it like the marriage. On a conceptual level the marriage is fine. But 90% of the actual stories were beyond terrible. It brought out the worst in Clark and Lois both as individuals and as a couple. Yet despite that background (which would imply that these two should've been divorced by now!) Tomasi has made it work just fine, and because the marriage was already "built into" the characters, Tomasi could just hit the ground running with it.

Secret Origin, on a conceptual level, is just a list of pre- and post-Crisis elements Johns threw together. The actual story was beyond terrible and played up the worst stereotypes of what non-fans think Superman is. But despite that it still offers plenty of material for Tomasi to use without being too restricting. Clark and Lex knew each other briefly as kids. Clark had adventures with the Legion as Superboy, the Kents stayed on the farm instead of moving to town and opening the store, and so on. Those ideas are fine. And Tomasi can use those ideas and build on them without having to copy the tone and characterization that made SO itself so f**king terrible.

[MeloDet]

I don't know how well SO would hold up after the merger though (assuming that's the route they go). If they want the merger to be anything more than lip service to N52 Superman then I think there need to be at least some elements of Morrison's origin in there. For a lot of people the main highlights of New 52 Superman were Morrison and Pak's runs, and it's probably safe to say that Pak was beloved at least in part for following up on what Morrison started (even if he grew to be more like Superdad, it still felt like a spiritual successor). Without at least some of Morrison's origin, how much of New 52 Superman would really be left? Sure they could say he had all the same stories, but it wouldn't feel that way and I doubt they'd ever be referenced in that case (though I wouldn't be surprised if they referenced Johns' or Snyder's stuff).

It doesn't need to be there, but if they're going that route then they may as well just skip the merger in the first place.

[superduperman]

I'm kind of hoping this is one of those "one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing" sort of things or that this is one of the aspects of SO that they decided to keep and will change certain other aspects. SO was not popular among fans. New 52's origin made a lot more sense. It was much more simple and fell in line with the GA version. This also fits with some of the rumors that New 52 was never meant to be permanent. In other words, they were going to restore the "old" universe sooner or later. Which doesn't really look like it's going to happen. At least not in the way it did before. Where everybody gets their old history back. If they merge Superdad and Nuperman, I'm willing to forgive some of this in that at least he'll keep his New 52 memories. Even if Superdad is the "main" Superman, at least he'll remember being Nuperman.

[Superlad93]

I don't know how well SO would hold up after the merger though (assuming that's the route they go). If they want the merger to be anything more than lip service to N52 Superman then I think there need to be at least some elements of Morrison's origin in there. For a lot of people the main highlights of New 52 Superman were Morrison and Pak's runs, and it's probably safe to say that Pak was beloved at least in part for following up on what Morrison started (even if he grew to be more like Superdad, it still felt like a spiritual successor). Without at least some of Morrison's origin, how much of New 52 Superman would really be left? Sure they could say he had all the same stories, but it wouldn't feel that way and I doubt they'd ever be referenced in that case (though I wouldn't be surprised if they referenced Johns' or Snyder's stuff).

It doesn't need to be there, but if they're going that route then they may as well just skip the merger in the first place.

I don't expect much at all to be left over, honestly. Superdad is a success, and post-crisis' return is the ultimate agenda of Rebirth. Outside of leaving Lana with her New 52 origin, and maybe starting Clark at the Daily Star or something like that, I don't see the New 52 origin factoring in more than Superdad's. I mean, it'll be his wife, his son, and his way of being Superman when it's all said and done.

Honestly, what I hope for are that at least some of the finer nonthreatening ideas from the New 52 persist on in Superdad. Superdad's attitude is pretty pitch perfect, but it would be nice to have it so some of his early adventures where straight up golden age. Like he'd have the classic suit and he'd fly, but it would be based in the retelling of old golden age stories, and 1940s Superman cartoon stories. I also wouldn't mind them making it clear that Clark Kent's news stories largely focus on the issues that slip through the cracks. Also the idea that the Ma and Pa have passed should stick at this point (though keeping Ma is a possibility).

[manofsteel1979]

First off; its rare that you and I are on different sides of a debate. This is fun.

Secondly; Im not saying SO is a good story. Its easily the worst origin, and one of the worst stories, I have ever had the misfortune of reading. If I had my way they'd be using Morrison's Action origin, or failing that the pre-Metropolis material from Birthright. Left to my own devices I'd have DC buy every Secret Origin discount-bin floppy issue and trade collection and launch them all into the sun, because I dont even want the ashes left on this planet.

However, its going to be SO, and all Im saying is that Superlad is right and there *might* be a silver lining, assuming the creators keep going in the same direction they have been.

SO was the last official origin in post-Crisis. So this is the origin that Superdad has had since his return; we're just now finally cementing the fact. And the books have been good (at least Tomasi's Superman anyway) so clearly using SO isnt hurting the quality.

Think of it like the marriage. On a conceptual level the marriage is fine. But 90% of the actual stories were beyond terrible. It brought out the worst in Clark and Lois both as individuals and as a couple. Yet despite that background (which would imply that these two should've been divorced by now!) Tomasi has made it work just fine, and because the marriage was already "built into" the characters, Tomasi could just hit the ground running with it.

Secret Origin, on a conceptual level, is just a list of pre- and post-Crisis elements Johns threw together. The actual story was beyond terrible and played up the worst stereotypes of what non-fans think Superman is. But despite that it still offers plenty of material for Tomasi to use without being too restricting. Clark and Lex knew each other briefly as kids. Clark had adventures with the Legion as Superboy, the Kents stayed on the farm instead of moving to town and opening the store, and so on. Those ideas are fine. And Tomasi can use those ideas and build on them without having to copy the tone and characterization that made SO itself so f**king terrible.

Great post as usual.

SO is a lackluster artistic statement on Superman,but conceptually actually isn't a bad skeleton on which to graft a sum total of 8 decades worth of continuity and publishing history if indeed Superman Reborn brings about or begins the true birth of a Superman that is all his various selves rolled into one as we are all beginning to assume is the endgame.

[666MasterOfPuppets]

If I had my druthers,they'd use BIRTHRIGHT,or at least the first two thirds,but that ship sailed. I liked Morrison's too but again,its too specific a vision of one writer.

I honestly think the big issue with the Post 86 origin tales is they are built around a specific author and his vision of Superman's history and not an attempt to create a skeleton that other people can come in later and add too and delete as they see fit,which for a character as old as Superman is its almost required. SO ,as much as it pains me to say,is a better as a skeleton framework. Taking out the Donner stuff,its as close to the basic gist of the preCrisis origin life story as we are going to get. If indeed the end result is an " ultimate style" Superman that is the consolidated sum of 80 years and four succinct eras of publication ( PreCrisis,Post Crisis,PreFlashpoint,New 52) a specific minded take on the origin as main canon isn't going to work.

Birthright is awesome, right? Also love Morrison's AC run.

But in the interest of building an "ultimate Superman" that includes all the eras of the character, wouldn't Morrison's origin work better? After all, he did include the original concept of Superman in his run. Also, I don't remember, but he wasn't that specific on Superman's years in Smallville (aside from the death of the Kents by Vndyktvx (sp?) and a couple of stories with Lana). Couldn't DC accommodate that story to their intestests by writing that Clark actually knew Lex in Smallville? I don't think it would be much of a stretch. If that's what they want, of course. Which I kinda don't doubt, given that Johns (ugh) is sadly in charge.

[bat39]

Its been a while since I read SO...and I think it was a decent enough story, but nothing too spectacular. Birthright and Morrison's run were better stories, and Man of Steel was a better reboot (then again, SO was pretty much a very belated origin for a soft-reboot of Superman). I agree that it works as a good enough 'skeleton' for Superdad's origin, assuming they plan not to do a full origin retelling. Its a very 'classic' and 'by-the-numbers' retelling of all the major touchpoints that we broadly associate with Superman - both Pre-COIE and Post-COIE.

[manofsteel1979]

Birthright is awesome, right? Also love Morrison's AC run.

But in the interest of building an "ultimate Superman" that includes all the eras of the character, wouldn't Morrison's origin work better? After all, he did include the original concept of Superman in his run. Also, I don't remember, but he wasn't that specific on Superman's years in Smallville (aside from the death of the Kents by Vndyktvx (sp?) and a couple of stories with Lana). Couldn't DC accommodate that story to their intestests by writing that Clark actually knew Lex in Smallville? I don't think it would be much of a stretch. If that's what they want, of course. Which I kinda don't doubt, given that Johns (ugh) is sadly in charge.

Well it was never stated in the actual Superman books,but according to Geoff Johns depiction of Nu Lex in FOREVER EVIL and his JL run was strongly implied to have still come from Smallville ala SO and BIRTHRIGHT,so it can be assumed Nuperman knew his Lex back in the day too.They never really touched on it in the actual Superman books though.

In theory,Morrison's story COULD work but the problem is as with Byrne's origin ( to perhaps a lesser extent) and Waid's is that it's" insert author here 's origin of Superman!" and not just "The origin of Superman! "If that makes any sense.

As much as I personally adore BIRTHRIGHT and Morrison's ACTION, Superman's canonical origin shouldn't feel like the particular vision of one man or woman. Make no mistake,Johns actual SO book itself has a author's vision of sorts (Donnerized!) But if you take the specifics out and go with as Superlad says,the template or skeleton of it,its an open enough template to include everything without nailing everything to a specific take.

Honestly,looking back,Morrisons best Superman origin was in ALL STAR. One page. Three panels. It works for ANY version or publication era.

[superduperman]

My guess is, they are still sorting out Superdad's origin and they just sort of wrote a lot of these books at the same time without consulting each other. So you have Trinity #2 which may or may not be canon. You have SO which may or may not still be canon. Or you have editorial still sorting stuff out. Keep in mind, a lot of the stuff they did in the run up to SO didn't ultimately match what was put in the book either. I think they are still trying to get their legs. I think one question that isn't being asked is, how often are they even going to reference his origin now? He's in a new universe. His history is ultimately irrelevant since he has no real connections to his old life anyway. He can't just fly home to the Kent farm and talk to his parents anymore and this Smallville isn't his.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I think Johns's Secret Origins is certainly the backstory Superdad currently remembers because that's the last origin he had before being plucked out of the timeline. However, I think his origin going forward will likely be a combination of various origins, ranging from Johns's Secret Origins to Waid's Birthright to Morrison's Golden Age champion of the oppressed. With any luck, we'll have the kitchen sink Krypton that Johns established that included virtually every incarnation of Kryptonian society. We'll get the TV's Smallville inspired Luthor and the fully fleshed out Clark that Waid established, along with Morrison's early days as a social crusader. Mix all that in with the high lights of the Golden, Silver, Bronze Ages with the spine of the Post-Crisis era begun by Byrne and you've got a Superman that finally feels like the ultimate version of the character and his mythology.

[manofsteel1979]

My guess is, they are still sorting out Superdad's origin and they just sort of wrote a lot of these books at the same time without consulting each other. So you have Trinity #2 which may or may not be canon. You have SO which may or may not still be canon. Or you have editorial still sorting stuff out. Keep in mind, a lot of the stuff they did in the run up to SO didn't ultimately match what was put in the book either. I think they are still trying to get their legs. I think one question that isn't being asked is, how often are they even going to reference his origin now? He's in a new universe. His history is ultimately irrelevant since he has no real connections to his old life anyway. He can't just fly home to the Kent farm and talk to his parents anymore and this Smallville isn't his.

Now? You're right. After SUPERMAN REBORN though...who knows?

[manofsteel1979]

I think Johns's Secret Origins is certainly the backstory Superdad currently remembers because that's the last origin he had before being plucked out of the timeline. However, I think his origin going forward will likely be a combination of various origins, ranging from Johns's Secret Origins to Waid's Birthright to Morrison's Golden Age champion of the oppressed. With any luck, we'll have the kitchen sink Krypton that Johns established that included virtually every incarnation of Kryptonian society. We'll get the TV's Smallville inspired Luthor and the fully fleshed out Clark that Waid established, along with Morrison's early days as a social crusader. Mix all that in with the high lights of the Golden, Silver, Bronze Ages with the spine of the Post-Crisis era begun by Byrne and you've got a Superman that finally feels like the ultimate version of the character and his mythology.

I'd be ok with all this,particularly cribbing Lex's origins from SMALLVILLE. IMO that version is the perfect origin for Lex Luthor. That is the only version of Lex that having him originate from Smallville makes sense.

[Ascended]

Birthright is awesome, right? Also love Morrison's AC run.

But in the interest of building an "ultimate Superman" that includes all the eras of the character, wouldn't Morrison's origin work better? After all, he did include the original concept of Superman in his run. Also, I don't remember, but he wasn't that specific on Superman's years in Smallville (aside from the death of the Kents by Vndyktvx (sp?) and a couple of stories with Lana). Couldn't DC accommodate that story to their intestests by writing that Clark actually knew Lex in Smallville? I don't think it would be much of a stretch. If that's what they want, of course. Which I kinda don't doubt, given that Johns (ugh) is sadly in charge.

Well, I think that on a spiritual level Morrison's origin is leaps and bounds beyond anything Johns could dream of writing on his best day. It "feels" like the Golden Age social crusader growing into the Silver Age super adventurer growing into the Bronze Age Heroic Paragon. It is infinitely better at being a Superman origin than SO was and yes it does employ the various elements of Super-history in a more organic and natural way.

But the benefit of SO is that, aside from the Donner wanking (easily ignored), it has no real sense of direction or purpose. Morrison's origin shines so brightly it's personality and events would inevitably seep into the titles, whereas SO is nothing more than a checklist of things that happened. And the current writers can use that or ignore it as they choose, add to it as they like, and nothing will feel out of place, whereas Morrison's origin has a flavor that might not mesh with what current writers want to do or say.

Now, if the merger thing is true? If that actually happens? then DC should use Morrison's origin. At that point we're almost certainly going to be seeing a shakeup in the mythos so you might as well pick the best options available. But as it stands right now SO does the least amount of damage.