Star Wars: Rogue One-Plot Holes and other problems you notice with it??

[SuperiorIronman]

No they don't. And even if that were true, the problem here is that it does so in a bad way. It does no make what came before better or more interesting, it only takes away.



I don't even know what you're talking about here. This movie doesn't **** up the part of Stat Wars where they take plans to a place. I'm not even sure why you're trying to get at there.

No. One movie asserted that the Death Star had a fatal flaw. In Star Wars it's hubris that's the villains downfall. They think nothing of their enemies, and see no way such a small force could bring down such a powerful weapon. So what if vent is a weak point? There's no way anyone could possibly get to it. But now it's different. Now someone just prearranged it, they specifically designed the Death Star to explode when you hit it just right. They specifically built a place where when hit everything goes boom. And if they're helping there, how much else are they helping? You put this thing you want hit at the end of this trench, are the weapons along this specific trenchs less than they normally would be? Who knows? Why assume anything works totally like it should be when the designer of the whole station specifically tells us he built it so someone could come along and blow it up? What's even the point of added such a stupid element into the movie? Oh, an explanation of a thing that didn't need explaining. Well great, the explanation for the vent is it was secretly put there to take the Death Star down this whole time.

Isn't it still hubris?
Darth Vader: As a knight of the Sith he felt he was beyond the teachings of Ben Kenobi and thus is defeated by a lack of faith in the Force (this is setup early on). Ben came back more powerful in that he could guide Luke into destroying the Death Star using faith to do what raw power and technology could not. Vader felt the force was powerful but felt there was nothing beyond his own power, and not even he could save the battlestation.
Tarkin and his fellow officers felt that while there could be a weakness to exploit, the Death Star was still powerful enough that it didn't matter. Tarkin doesn't leave after he is informed there was a risk of the Rebels destroying the base since they continually failed to do so, thus cementing the view that the Death Star was unstoppable.
Regardless of any weakness the Imperials remained confident. Only Darth Vader is the one who truly sees the risk for what it is, but even then he views himself as powerful as the war machine he is here to protect and ultimately isn't.

Galen being responsible for the weakness does not detract from that because it ultimately didn't matter. In Tarkin's case the Death Star was a moment from firing thus Luke almost failed, and in Darth Vader's case he still fails for a lack of faith in the force, something he realizes he is lacking in when he is about to shoot down Luke.

[Carabas]

Like I said in the very bit you quoted. How they got to it was seemingly the only way to do so. It can be assumed what you're suggesting isn't an option, as we've already seen that getting into the Death Star isn't some impossible feat. If vent and the trench are the only way to get to something designed to be gotten to and hit, it can be assumed that was designed for them to get to it that way.

Getting into the Death Star again would take a lot more time than they actually have.

Getting from the docking bays to wherever they need to be inside that thing would take more time than they have.

[WebLurker]

No they don't. And even if that were true, the problem here is that it does so in a bad way. It does no make what came before better or more interesting, it only takes away.

New information affects how we see the older things. For example, Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest revealed a lot of backstory about the Black Pearl that adds a new dimension to Jack Sparrow's quest to get it back in Curse of the Black Pearl. At World's End also chances how we see certain things with the revelations of the Pirate Lords and the Pieces of Eight.

I don't even know what you're talking about here. This movie doesn't **** up the part of Stat Wars where they take plans to a place. I'm not even sure why you're trying to get at there.

I think I misunderstood the argument and thought it was about someone else.

No. One movie asserted that the Death Star had a fatal flaw. In Star Wars it's hubris that's the villains downfall. They think nothing of their enemies, and see no way such a small force could bring down such a powerful weapon. So what if vent is a weak point? There's no way anyone could possibly get to it. But now it's different. Now someone just prearranged it, they specifically designed the Death Star to explode when you hit it just right. They specifically built a place where when hit everything goes boom. And if they're helping there, how much else are they helping? You put this thing you want hit at the end of this trench, are the weapons along this specific trenchs less than they normally would be? Who knows? Why assume anything works totally like it should be when the designer of the whole station specifically tells us he built it so someone could come along and blow it up? What's even the point of added such a stupid element into the movie? Oh, an explanation of a thing that didn't need explaining. Well great, the explanation for the vent is it was secretly put there to take the Death Star down this whole time.

And it still is (check about 7:24 in):


[quote]

[SuperiorIronman]

In ANH the briefing states that the reactor shaft is the only direct way of destroying the station and that's also with a precise shot (nothing could go wrong in the shaft itself). The weakness isn't the shaft, but the fact that this shaft leads directly to the reactor which will set off a chain reaction that will destroy the Death Star. In Rogue One it's never clear what exactly it is Galen did so much as he did something. All we know is that that Galen put a weakness inside the station and that if it is the way things blow up, if the station blows up at all, or if it was simply a lack of weapons around something existing we don't know.

The shaft was only the direct from of entrance since the Death Star is built for a full assault. You can't mount an assault with frigates and all that since it is designed to fight that sort of thing. They had been lacking in time, the only reason the heroes got aboard in the first place was due to a tractor beam, you can't assault it, and at this point in time it didn't exist publicly so it's not like they had the time to infiltrate the station.

The Rebels have no choice but to take advantage of a single flaw that was heavily protected and required perfect aim. We don't know what Galen did, if it even mattered to the shaft and reactor, nor did that have an effect on Luke even being there in the first place.

[WebLurker]

In ANH the briefing states that the reactor shaft is the only direct way of destroying the station and that's also with a precise shot (nothing could go wrong in the shaft itself). The weakness isn't the shaft, but the fact that this shaft leads directly to the reactor which will set off a chain reaction that will destroy the Death Star. In Rogue One it's never clear what exactly it is Galen did so much as he did something. All we know is that that Galen put a weakness inside the station and that if it is the way things blow up, if the station blows up at all, or if it was simply a lack of weapons around something existing we don't know.

The shaft was only the direct from of entrance since the Death Star is built for a full assault. You can't mount an assault with frigates and all that since it is designed to fight that sort of thing. They had been lacking in time, the only reason the heroes got aboard in the first place was due to a tractor beam, you can't assault it, and at this point in time it didn't exist publicly so it's not like they had the time to infiltrate the station.

The Rebels have no choice but to take advantage of a single flaw that was heavily protected and required perfect aim. We don't know what Galen did, if it even mattered to the shaft and reactor, nor did that have an effect on Luke even being there in the first place.

The Rogue One novelization clarifies the mechanics of the flaw (pp. 173 - 181).

[Carabas]

In Rogue One it's never clear what exactly it is Galen did so much as he did something. All we know is that that Galen put a weakness inside the station and that if it is the way things blow up, if the station blows up at all, or if it was simply a lack of weapons around something existing we don't know.

Nono, it is quite clear. They go into some detail. Explosion in that part of the station ---> the entire thing goes boom.

It's just, you know, there are easier ways to get an explosion going in the reactor than trying to shoot at it through a shielded exhaust port. But they did not have time for anything more fancy.

[SuperiorIronman]

Nono, it is quite clear. They go into some detail. Explosion in that part of the station ---> the entire thing goes boom.

It's just, you know, there are easier ways to get an explosion going in the reactor than trying to shoot at it through a shielded exhaust port. But they did not have time for anything more fancy.

My mistake for not knowing that information (I haven't read a novelization since Revenge of the Sith). I am surprised I overlooked that though so I should probably check out the novels, or at least a Wookiepedia page.
Definitely agreeing on the Death Star attack though, they just didn't have the time for anything else.

[WebLurker]

My mistake for not knowing that information (I haven't read a novelization since Revenge of the Sith). I am surprised I overlooked that though so I should probably check out the novels, or at least a Wookiepedia page.
Definitely agreeing on the Death Star attack though, they just didn't have the time for anything else.

I think the Rogue One novelization is really good, so I'd recommend a read. In any event, I think the explanation is more interesting when actually read than summarized.

If you like Rogue One the movie, there are two pretty good prequel novels, Catalyst, which explains the backstories of Galen Erso and Orson Krennic, and Rebel Rising, which tells Jyn's story from the prologue to when she gets recruited by the Rebels. Those two books plus the novelization work really well together. One fairly good way to do it is to read Catalyst, then the prologue of Rogue One, Rebel Rising, then the rest of Rogue One. It puts the whole story in chronological order and allows the earlier books to set things up that really pay off in the novelization.

[Za Waldo]

Nono, it is quite clear. They go into some detail. Explosion in that part of the station ---> the entire thing goes boom.

It's just, you know, there are easier ways to get an explosion going in the reactor than trying to shoot at it through a shielded exhaust port. But they did not have time for anything more fancy.

There is nothing in the movie to tell you there's an easier way, or any other way. They have a readout of the whole station but you're assuming they're not going the only or easiest way they can? Why? If there's only one way to hit it, and it was designed to be hit, then that one way was specifically designed so they could hit it.

[Za Waldo]

New information affects how we see the older things. For example, Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest revealed a lot of backstory about the Black Pearl that adds a new dimension to Jack Sparrow's quest to get it back in Curse of the Black Pearl. At World's End also chances how we see certain things with the revelations of the Pirate Lords and the Pieces of Eight.

I don't remember anything about those movies other than the two sequels after the first movie made things a whole lot less interesting. The point also isn't that that never happens, it's that it doesn't always happen. You said it ways happens, but sequels and prequels aren't always radically changing events of other movies. When you do do that you run the risk of doing what this movie did, which is change stuff for the worse.

And it still is (check about 7:24 in):

No, it's not. The hubris would come with knowing there's a problem, but assuming the enemy is so weak it doesn't matter anyways. The hubris would be knowing of a problem and still using the Death Star. But now they don't know about the weakness, they don't know someone secretly designed their giant battle station to explode when hit in a specific place. They aren't knowingly putting something with a design flaw into use anymore, because the flaw is no longer a flaw that can be known, now it's an secret intentional design choice specifically put there to help the good guys.

[SuperiorIronman]

There is nothing in the movie to tell you there's an easier way, or any other way. They have a readout of the whole station but you're assuming they're not going the only or easiest way they can? Why? If there's only one way to hit it, and it was designed to be hit, then that one way was specifically designed so they could hit it.

They had little time to sneak aboard the station and the only way the heroes got on the first time was because the Empire forced them in. The Death Star is built for a full assault so it's not like a fleet would work, it's why they send starfighters since they have a better chance avoiding turbolasers. The Empire showing up when they did knowing there would be an assault meant that the quickest way to destroy the station is the plan they went with.
Regardless if it was the only way to destroy the station nobody could do it without magic. Something the rebels lacked until Luke came along. So what if Galen left a weakness, it's still Luke's journey and he had to be the one to destroy it (nobody else could in case you forgot). The Death Star is still Luke's dragon to slay and had to make the effort to learn the force and find faith in it to be the hero he is meant to be. Galen leaving a weakness doesn't undercut Luke's journey because IT'S HIS STORY. Luke could very well have missed but because he found the Force he was capable of defeating the bad guys. Galen's weakness is the chink in the armor that mattered little because only Luke was capable of making that shot once he used the force. You're forgetting that Star Wars is Luke Skywalker's story and that nothing about what Galen did mattered. If Galen wasn't present it doesn't change the fact that it's still Luke's fight. Galen putting in the weakness does not affect Luke since it's still his agency that leads to the battlestation getting destroyed.

Hubris is still the downfall of the bad guys
The Death Star is still Luke's dragon to slay
You try shooting a a perfect shot in a jet fighter with a target that's only 6 feet wide while trying not to die

[WebLurker]

I don't remember anything about those movies other than the two sequels after the first movie made things a whole lot less interesting. The point also isn't that that never happens, it's that it doesn't always happen. You said it ways happens, but sequels and prequels aren't always radically changing events of other movies. When you do do that you run the risk of doing what this movie did, which is change stuff for the worse.

Specifically, I was thinking about the Black Pearl's expanded backstory (the deal with Davy Jones and how it added a ticking clock to Jack's quest in the first movie) and the expanded explanation of the compass. Fair enough otherwise.

No, it's not. The hubris would come with knowing there's a problem, but assuming the enemy is so weak it doesn't matter anyways. The hubris would be knowing of a problem and still using the Death Star. But now they don't know about the weakness, they don't know someone secretly designed their giant battle station to explode when hit in a specific place. They aren't knowingly putting something with a design flaw into use anymore, because the flaw is no longer a flaw that can be known, now it's an secret intentional design choice specifically put there to help the good guys.

I guess the change didn't bother me that much, since it was still a challenge to hit the target and a flaw is a flaw, regardless of how it got there. Your mileage may vary.

[Carabas]

There is nothing in the movie to tell you there's an easier way, or any other way. They have a readout of the whole station but you're assuming they're not going the only or easiest way they can? Why? If there's only one way to hit it, and it was designed to be hit, then that one way was specifically designed so they could hit it.

Well, they are a bit on the clock, aren't they? The easiest way to do it isn't on the table.

[Za Waldo]

Specifically, I was thinking about the Black Pearl's expanded backstory (the deal with Davy Jones and how it added a ticking clock to Jack's quest in the first movie) and the expanded explanation of the compass. Fair enough otherwise.




I guess the change didn't bother me that much, since it was still a challenge to hit the target and a flaw is a flaw, regardless of how it got there. Your mileage may vary.

Here's the problem with the change and that. Before they couldn't hit a thing that was never meant to be hit. Now they can't hit a thing that was specifically put there to be hit.

Well, they are a bit on the clock, aren't they? The easiest way to do it isn't on the table.

This is not a thing in the movie. Why would you even assume they're taken the more difficult way, or that the way you're seeing isn't the only way? What in the actual movie would suggest there's an easier way? It sure seems to be the only way based on the movie. There's a whole attack briefing scene in this movie where they could have gotten this idea you're talking about rather quickly and easily if they they wanted.

The ticking clock element is only there because they stay to fight the Death Star. If there was another better way to attack the Death Star, which we have no reason to believe there was, they could have just abandoned the base and done so later.

[Carabas]

This is not a thing in the movie.

Is too.

Why would you even assume they're taken the more difficult way, or that the way you're seeing isn't the only way?

Because we know exactly what will set off the chain reaction: any explosion in the main reactor.

"the reactor module, that's the key. That's the place I've laid my trap. It's well hidden and unstable, one blast to any part of it will destroy the entire station. You'll need the plans, the structural plans for the Death Star to find the reactor. I know there's a complete engineering archive in the data vault at the Citadel Tower on Scarif. Any pressurized explosion to the reactor module will set off a chain reaction that will destroy the entire station..."

And that would be a whole lot easier to accomplish if you are inside the Death Star with some explosive charges than outside it in an X-Wing.

What in the actual movie would suggest there's an easier way? It sure seems to be the only way based on the movie. There's a whole attack briefing scene in this movie where they could have gotten this idea you're talking about rather quickly and easily if they they wanted.

What about "they are on the clock" do you not get?
They don't have time to infiltrate the Death Star before it blows up Yavin IV.

Now, for a really big plot hole, why didn't the Empire just blow up the planet Yavin IV was orbiting instead of spending half an hour going around it?

The ticking clock element is only there because they stay to fight the Death Star. If there was another better way to attack the Death Star, which we have no reason to believe there was, they could have just abandoned the base and done so later.

What in the film gives you the impression that evacuation was an option?