Mystique or Dr. Octopus: Who's the better person?

[Dum Dum Dugan]

This may seem like a random question, but it's been a little debate I've been having with my friend. He thinks Ock is the better person, I think Mystique is. They're both villains who have also acted as heroes, but who do you think is the better person morally?

[Zero Hunter]

Well considering that after all the things Mystique has done over the years the X-Men should have a standing "KILL on sight" order that makes Doc Ock win by default. Mystique is totally amoral and would kill anyone if it furthered her own agenda.

[Turlast]

Mystique by far. Ock had no qualms attempting to kill millions countless times merely to prove his intelligence.

[Michael Watkins]

Ock is pettier. Raven, at some points of her very long life, was actually working to protect mutants. she killed her own son in a misguided attempt to protect mutankind. Otto could be a successful law abiding citizen if he wanted to be. the best Raven could do is live a lie. both are sociopaths, though.

[Alan2099]

Dr. Octopus is legitimately brain damaged. It happened in his origin (unless they've reconnected it since.) Mystique is just plain evil.

[Michael Watkins]

Dr. Octopus is legitimately brain damaged. It happened in his origin (unless they've reconnected it since.) Mystique is just plain evil.

not true. it was confirmed a month or so back that her mutant power has negatively affected her mental stability.

[Huntsman Spider]

not true. it was confirmed a month or so back that her mutant power has negatively affected her mental stability.

So they're both unstable maniacs who have no place in society unless that place is a mental institution where they can get the psychological help they so severely need while they're also kept from being able to hurt anyone else.

[Michael Watkins]

So they're both unstable maniacs who have no place in society unless that place is a mental institution where they can get the psychological help they so severely need while they're also kept from being able to hurt anyone else.

sure. but that would be boring storytelling.

[Huntsman Spider]

sure. but that would be boring storytelling.

Would be less boring if they tried some kind of advanced neurosurgery to repair the brain damage that leads to so many super-villains, and of course it would turn out to be an evil plot to have controllable super-villains that could be used as weapons and resources in ways that superheroes would never allow themselves to be used.

[Alan2099]

sure. but that would be boring storytelling.

Let Peter David right a Doc Sampson Psychiatrist to the Supervillians book and I'd be all over it.

[Huntsman Spider]

Let Peter David right a Doc Sampson Psychiatrist to the Supervillians book and I'd be all over it.

Let Doc Samson come back to life and shed all the BS Jeph Loeb inflicted on him, and that'll be a great book to read.

[Michael Watkins]

Would be less boring if they tried some kind of advanced neurosurgery to repair the brain damage that leads to so many super-villains, and of course it would turn out to be an evil plot to have controllable super-villains that could be used as weapons and resources in ways that superheroes would never allow themselves to be used.

well Zemo did use behavior modification tech on an army of super-villains; during Civil War. and Maria Hill used cosmic cube girl. not as cool as neurosurgery.

[The Overlord]

Dr. Octopus is legitimately brain damaged. It happened in his origin (unless they've reconnected it since.) Mystique is just plain evil.

I think the brain damage Ock is supposed to have affected him seems like a typical motive found in the Silver Age, that future writers just abandoned.

If Ock suffered real brain damage, wouldn't he lose his scientific abilities? Ock comes off as sane in many of his appearances, where his unhappy childhood, his failed romantic life and his belief his genius goes unappreciated is his motivation, rather then brain damage.

I think comic book writers just declare a villain insane without doing the leg work and showing how they are actually criminally insane. Melvin Potter and Typhoid Mary are criminally insane, Ock is not.

[Huntsman Spider]

I think the brain damage Ock is supposed to have affected him seems like a typical motive found in the Silver Age, that future writers just abandoned.

If Ock suffered real brain damage, wouldn't he lose his scientific abilities? Ock comes off as sane in many of his appearances, where his unhappy childhood, his failed romantic life and his belief his genius goes unappreciated is his motivation, rather then brain damage.

I think comic book writers just declare a villain insane without doing the leg work and showing how they are actually criminally insane. Melvin Potter and Typhoid Mary are criminally insane, Ock is not.

So he's not legally insane, but a lot of his behavior does point to some manner of personality disorder, which he would need intensive psychotherapy and perhaps medication to overcome. However, the legal definition of insanity is that someone is no longer capable of telling right from wrong, and that's not Otto; in his case, it's more like he doesn't care what anyone else thinks is right or wrong because he sees everyone else as beneath him and therefore unqualified to tell him what right and wrong is. He may be psychologically disturbed for one reason or another, but he's not insane in the legal sense.

As for Mystique . . . well, now that it's been proven that her shapeshifting also imbalances her neurochemistry, she might fit the definition of legal insanity. At the very least, she would be a case of "insanity by way of superhuman abilities adversely affecting the possessor's mental processes," which should be a legal precedent by now in the Marvel Universe.

[Agent of Wolfram & Hart]

Let Doc Samson come back to life and shed all the BS Jeph Loeb inflicted on him, and that'll be a great book to read.

One of the only good things to come out of Civil War II was Doc Samson is back and seems to be restored to his self, even if it's unexplained