Controversial Wonderverse Opinions

[VonHammersmark]

wat.

I'm sorry, but she does not murder. She kills only in self-defense and only when there are absolutely no other options.

As for taking risks? What is it that you and VonHammersmark what Diana to do, exactly? I'd be interested to hear, since political correctness is pretty subjective a term.

Well at the very least, I’d like her to use contractions lol but also smile more, crack a joke, have fun in a nutshell. She can have coca-cola every once in a while too, but don’t tell Rucka or he might retcon it

No instead Diana shows up to an interview with Lois Lane wearing a brown wool sweater, orders green tea and sits there talking about how sad and lonely she feels all the time, she’s like “oh I do not have much time for leisure but when I am not doing charity work in Africa or saving the world from invading misogynist aliens, I enjoy sightseeing, reading and watching the sunset. Also I’m very severely depressed right now btw Lois, this is off the record”

[Carabas]

No instead Diana shows up to an interview with Lois Lane wearing a brown wool sweater, orders green tea and sits there talking about how sad and lonely she feels all the time, she’s like “oh I do not have much time for leisure but when I am not doing charity work in Africa or saving the world from invading misogynist aliens, I enjoy sightseeing, reading and watching the sunset. Also I’m very severely depressed right now btw Lois, this is off the record”

IIRC that is saint Perez, not Rucka.

[Joao]

Well at the very least, I’d like her to use contractions lol but also smile more, crack a joke, have fun in a nutshell. She can have coca-cola every once in a while too, but don’t tell Rucka or he might retcon it

No instead Diana shows up to an interview with Lois Lane wearing a brown wool sweater, orders green tea and sits there talking about how sad and lonely she feels all the time, she’s like “oh I do not have much time for leisure but when I am not doing charity work in Africa or saving the world from invading misogynist aliens, I enjoy sightseeing, reading and watching the sunset. Also I’m very severely depressed right now btw Lois, this is off the record”

I get what you are saying and I had some problems with her personality as written by Rucka in a moment of my fan life lol. Her adult version can be kind of too serious, yes. Sometimes she reminds me of a poet or philosopher. She is wise as hell. But I would like a little spunk, too.

It's funny cause she was not like that in Year One. Except for the soda thing, which is completely understandable since I don't think they had spoons and more spoons of sugar drinks in Themyscira, she was fun, she cracked jokes and had a good time. Like in the scenes below.

Well, to be fair, Diana was having an awful time recovering from the Lies/the Truth. And leaving her home must've been a life-changing experience like it is for all of us. But it seems that she never had fun anymore. So... I think I got ya.

[Agent Z]

Here's my controversial opinion on: People complaining about a lack of "sass" from Diana do not and never will have a valid complaint. It's them assuming their idea of a character's personality is universal as if there are t a million characters like that already. Diana preferring to read is not some scandal.

Far too many people treat Marston as the be all end all when it comes to WW.

DC's demonisation of Diana after killing Max Lord was them trying to have their cake and eat it too. They knew turning a fan favorite into a villain was a bad idea but instead tried to make fans hate Diana rather than them.

[SiegePerilous02]

Here's my controversial opinion on: People complaining about a lack of "sass" from Diana do not and never will have a valid complaint. It's them assuming their idea of a character's personality is universal as if there are t a million characters like that already. Diana preferring to read is not some scandal.

Marston's Diana did read. I don't see the correlation between having a bit more "sass" and not being intelligent or compassionate. She invented the Purple Ray. Her track record for helping to reform criminals and making friends out of enemies is probably higher than any subsequent version.

Plenty of post-Crisis WW fans assume their idea of her personality is universal as well.

Far too many people treat Marston as the be all end all when it comes to WW.

Just as many do the same with Perez

No instead Diana shows up to an interview with Lois Lane wearing a brown wool sweater, orders green tea and sits there talking about how sad and lonely she feels all the time, she’s like “oh I do not have much time for leisure but when I am not doing charity work in Africa or saving the world from invading misogynist aliens, I enjoy sightseeing, reading and watching the sunset. Also I’m very severely depressed right now btw Lois, this is off the record”

I don't think a scene like this ever happened, and if it did, the closest we got was by Jimenez, not Rucka.

[Agent Z]

Marston's Diana did read.

Okay. Never said she didn’t.

I don't see the correlation between having a bit more "sass" and not being intelligent or compassionate.

I don't either. But apparently some do.

Her track record for helping to reform criminals and making friends out of enemies is probably higher than any subsequent version.

Actually, between the Sangtee, two Silver Swans, Belyllioth and the Bana, I’d say the track record of subsequent versions is pretty good. Especially given she did it without torture belts.

Just as many do the same with Perez

Not as many and not to the same level of obnoxiousness. Perez/Post crisis fans at least acknowledge the role Martson played in Diana’s creation. Most pro-Marston/pre crisis fans refuse to see any merit in post crisis versions or any problems in pre crisis’ take.

[SiegePerilous02]

Okay. Never said she didn’t.

Then why bring up the sassiness and put it in the same paragraph as her liking to read? What does her reading have to do with anything?

I don't either. But apparently some do.

Or they want her to have more variety in her personality. People who say they prefer the older versions don't claim the later ones are not compassionate or intelligence. They said she's boring.

Actually, between the Sangtee, two Silver Swans, Belyllioth and the Bana, I’d say the track record of subsequent versions is pretty good. Especially given she did it without torture belts.

Didn't need the Venus Girdles for Paula, Blakfu, the Garden of Eden vs. Seal Men conflict, etc.

Not as many and not to the same level of obnoxiousness. Perez/Post crisis fans at least acknowledge the role Martson played in Diana’s creation. Most pro-Marston/pre crisis fans refuse to see any merit in post crisis versions or any problems in pre crisis’ take.

The level of obnoxiousness depends on what side of the argument it falls on, doesn't it? Plenty of Perez fans act like he either invented the character or was the first one to ever get her right and don't want any pre-Crisis elements coming back. Which seems pretty obnoxious to pre-Crisis fans who want to acknowledge that Marston and his cohorts did more than merely create the character and had some interesting things to say.

[Agent Z]

Then why bring up the sassiness and put it in the same paragraph as her liking to read? What does her reading have to do with anything?

It was more directed at this comment.

Well at the very least, I’d like her to use contractions lol but also smile more, crack a joke, have fun in a nutshell. She can have coca-cola every once in a while too, but don’t tell Rucka or he might retcon it

No instead Diana shows up to an interview with Lois Lane wearing a brown wool sweater, orders green tea and sits there talking about how sad and lonely she feels all the time, she’s like “oh I do not have much time for leisure but when I am not doing charity work in Africa or saving the world from invading misogynist aliens, I enjoy sightseeing, reading and watching the sunset. Also I’m very severely depressed right now btw Lois, this is off the record”

Or they want her to have more variety in her personality. People who say they prefer the older versions don't claim the later ones are not compassionate or intelligence.

I’ve seen quite a number who did claim that actually.
I don’t mind variety but frequent calls for “sass” don’t strike me as variety. These are the same people who think superheroes only work when everything is a Looney Tunes cartoon on sugar rush.

Didn't need the Venus Girdles for Paula, Blakfu, the Garden of Eden vs. Seal Men conflict, etc.

Fair enough.

The level of obnoxiousness depends on what side of the argument it falls on, doesn't it? Plenty of Perez fans act like he either invented the character or was the first one to ever get her right and don't want any pre-Crisis elements coming back. Which seems pretty obnoxious to pre-Crisis fans who want to acknowledge that Marston and his cohorts did more than merely create the character and had some interesting things to say.

I suppose. I find the pro-Masrton/pre crisis crowd is full of way more gatekeeping and snobbery (especially from some of those that are professional writers) and overall whitewashing of that period. Even post crisis fans will admit to some faults like Amazons Attack.

[Diana]

The last two decades of WW alone prove this is most certainly not the case. Between the origin changes, constant cast shuffling, introduction of new villains over using old ones, Diana if anything has way too much experimentation in comparison to Superman and Batman. Diana's status quo can end changing multiple times in the space of a single run. The problem isn't that WW writers are afraid of deviation or risk. It's that they take too much risk.

Diana is one of the few superheroes who has ever stood trial for killing someone.

That's not true. Superman and Batman has multiple titles, many versions and retellings, many creators. Wonder Woman's mythos does not evolve as much. Superman and Batman have been on trial for killing someone along with many characters. It's easily proven by Google, so I'm not sure why you would say Diana is special in that regard nor is there much of a point to it. You think they take too much risk which just proves my point. Despite Diana's mythos not changing as much as other characters, fans are too precious over her mythos.

Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman was very similar to Azzarello's Diana. She was naive to a fault, she gets emotional, she had a ragtag group for friends. It proved to work well and makes the character feel like a real person.

[Agent Z]

That's not true. Superman and Batman has multiple titles,

That’s not experimentation, that’s more exposure for cash cows.

many versions and retellings,

As has Diana who has had four different retellings of her origin in the past six years alone.

many creators.

I’m confused by this. Are you under the impression Diana has only been written by one person?

Wonder Woman's mythos does not evolve as much.

Rebirth is the most evolution the Superman mythos has had in decades and the Batman mythos just recently chickened out of a chance at a major status quo. WW is the poster girl of superhero writers throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks. I assure you, a character like Jason would never have appeared in a Batman or Superman comic.

Superman and Batman have been on trial for killing someone along with many characters. It's easily proven by Google, so I'm not sure why you would say Diana is special in that regard nor is there much of a point to it.

I took your advice regarding Google and all I found was this

https://www.avclub.com/heroes-on-tri...ses-1798238607

https://henchman4hire.com/2012/02/11...-put-on-trial/

Batman (whom I never claimed wasn’t put on trial) is there yes (because he was framed for it), but Superman is not. Well not for murder anyway. In fact, most of these aren't for murder at all (and a few of them aren't even heroes) And compared to the number of superheroes that have killed someone and never stood trial, the ones that have stood trial are few and far between.

You think they take too much risk which just proves my point.

Not even close.

Despite Diana's mythos not changing as much as other characters, fans are too precious over her mythos.

See above.

Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman was very similar to Azzarello's Diana. She was naive to a fault, she gets emotional, she had a ragtag group for friends. It proved to work well and makes the character feel like a real person.

That’s nice. It also isn’t unique to Azzarello and what does it have to do with the conversation at hand?

[Nyssane]

Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman was very similar to Azzarello's Diana. She was naive to a fault, she gets emotional, she had a ragtag group for friends. It proved to work well and makes the character feel like a real person.

That literally describes the majority of writers' versions of Diana. It's not exclusive to Azzarello, especially with his run focusing on everyone around her with Diana herself getting very little page-time.

Gal Gadot's Diana would also never grab a man by the testicles to threaten him.

But ultimately this thread is all about opinions anyway so everyone is entitled to believe what they want.

[WonderScott]

Per the sass factor, I never see/saw Diana as being sassy for the sake of sassiness. Sass is sometimes a person's shield or armor against the world or so that people can't get too close or potentially hurt them. Diana is definitely not that version of sassy.

To me, any of her sass with strangers or society at large comes from being incredibly intelligent, empathic, and forthright, and powerfully strong in her convictions. She's an excellent judge of character and situations and her humor can come from challenging people to think about things differently or, in some cases, be better than they are from her clever, candid, and caring stance.

For Steve or Etta or Batman or Superman or any of her other besties (I wish she'd get some more of those that showed up more frequently), she should have a more personal side of her humor where she can play her sense of humor off of them and their personal relationship. Just like we all do with friends and family.

[SiegePerilous02]

It was more directed at this comment.

Ah gotcha. Fair enough

I’ve seen quite a number who did claim that actually.
I don’t mind variety but frequent calls for “sass” don’t strike me as variety. These are the same people who think superheroes only work when everything is a Looney Tunes cartoon on sugar rush.

If they did, I'd have to share in your disagreement. I don't always disagree with post-Crisis Diana being kind of boring. Rucka very much writes her as an extension of Perez's, but I think he's one of the few where it works for me.

IDK, I don't think wanting superheros to act less like they have sticks up their butts automatically means that people want something that whacky. Azzarello's Diana is said by some on here to be similar to Marston's in demeanor, but I wouldn't consider her OTT cartoonish.

Fair enough.

To be clear, I wouldn't want the Venus Girdles to come back and be endorsed a the right thing to do. I think examining them and putting them aside as not being the correct approach would be more interesting than not making them exist at all. If not with the Amazons, then with Desira and the people of Venus, whom I believe were the ones who gave the Girdles to the Amazons.

I suppose. I find the pro-Masrton/pre crisis crowd is full of way more gatekeeping and snobbery (especially from some of those that are professional writers) and overall whitewashing of that period. Even post crisis fans will admit to some faults like Amazons Attack.

I guess I can't disagree that plenty of writers express that opinion, but they ultimately are allowed to express it as much as we are. Saying post-Crisis is uninteresting to them isn't the same as saying the character herself is uninteresting, just one era that didn't come first and won't be the last either.

White washing the pre-Crisis era doesn't seem entirely necessary. The obviously dated aspects like the racism from that period aren't being considered a good part of it, and I feel like that goes without saying. The themes and concepts from that era can (and has) be utilized or modernized fairly easily without bringing that crap along.

Post-Crisis fans will denounce Amazons Attack!, but that's just an individual storyline that everybody hates. They do not seem to be quick to find fault (even constructive criticism) in Perez's foundation>

[Thor2014]

I think Diana was created with a fun personality, that fact often gets overlooked because of the more solemn tones (at times) of Post-Crisis/Pre-OYL Diana. Nothing wrong (in fact she should) be playful and cracking jokes on occasion, she can still be compassionate like the original GA Diana was. She can still be noble but don't make her a total killjoy, no-fun, that's not who Diana is or should be. There can be many different facets to her personality.

The important thing is to just don't make Diana look naive, it was so cringe-inducing during Piccoult's run where Diana teared up because she didn't know how turnstiles worked! She's been in Man's World for many years at that point and she came off looking like an idiot. It was infuriating.

[Thor2014]

She's too proper, has no charisma, doesn't use contractions, in other words, she's stodgy. Azzarello's was a good, compassionate individual without checking all the pc boxes, I think they're very distinct

I don't think she's been that bad for a about a decade. I think DC finally found a good balance in this regard. 'Rucka I' was really the last time I recall seeing that version of Diana, and even then Rucka's first run was excellent so that I didn't mind that so much.