Justice League #12 Continuity (spoilers)

[sustainentropy]

So this issue was essentially giving us Max Lord's current backstory as it stands in the current continuity, showing how he took over Checkmate, his relationship with his mother and interestingly where he was when the invasion from Apokolips happened in the first issues of New 52 Justice League.

So it seems this isn't the pre-Flashpoint Max Lord after all.

[cranger]

I am trying to figure out if they are pointing to something more mysterious still. There is the comment from his mother about hearing voices, but also when talking to Waller he says he is always living another life or something about hiding some truth from the world. I guess we still don't know what lead him to find out about whatever Waller is hiding in Belle Reve.

[Nite-Wing]

So if Waller can resist Max's telepathy
I have no idea how the much stronger group of villains haven't at least begun to disobey him yet.
Seems like they just needed a way for Waller to not get killed here

[Jenn]

So if Waller can resist Max's telepathy
I have no idea how the much stronger group of villains haven't at least begun to disobey him yet.
Seems like they just needed a way for Waller to not get killed here

It's not the first time we see Waller resist someone's telephatic suggestions. There was at least one instance Pre-Flashpoint if I remember correctly, probably during Ostrander's run (though I need confirmation on that one).

And I don't think Max is controlling the other villains telepathically. He is just manipulating them with words. It's pretty obvious in the last issue of JLvsSS that they only follow him around because of a common interest.

[cranger]

So if Waller can resist Max's telepathy
I have no idea how the much stronger group of villains haven't at least begun to disobey him yet.
Seems like they just needed a way for Waller to not get killed here

Like Max says, his power pushes people to do things they want to do anyway. These villains wanted to kill and do bad things, as long as his mission for them allows them to do that they will obey him.

[sustainentropy]

I am trying to figure out if they are pointing to something more mysterious still. There is the comment from his mother about hearing voices, but also when talking to Waller he says he is always living another life or something about hiding some truth from the world. I guess we still don't know what lead him to find out about whatever Waller is hiding in Belle Reve.

I took the comment about hearing voices, headaches and nose bleeds to mean that his telepathic powers were beginning to come through, but that's not how his power works is it? I didn't catch that on the first read through.

"worrying that I'll forget which lie or half-truth I'm living" just meant to me that he lies for a living, so he has to be constantly aware of the lies he's told before in case he accidentally contradicts them. You could totally be right but that's what I took it to mean anyway.

[cranger]

I took the comment about hearing voices, headaches and nose bleeds to mean that his telepathic powers were beginning to come through, but that's not how his power works is it? I didn't catch that on the first read through.

"worrying that I'll forget which lie or half-truth I'm living" just meant to me that he lies for a living, so he has to be constantly aware of the lies he's told before in case he accidentally contradicts them. You could totally be right but that's what I took it to mean anyway.

I did take it that way too but I still wonder if the intention is to leave the door open to mean something else. I may have also thought he actually said "which life" instead of "which lie" when I read it.

[sustainentropy]

I did take it that way too but I still wonder if the intention is to leave the door open to mean something else. I may have also thought he actually said "which life" instead of "which lie" when I read it.

It's very possible that is the intention. It's interesting that this Max has had powers since childhood all the same

[Frontier]

This is definitely a New 52 Max Lord, in terms of his new history and the context of his role in this universe, but I think something happened to him (whether it be his powers activating or something else) that led him to rediscover his Post-Crisis memories.

In the actual event, he called the League "old friends," but as far as what we've seen of his history, he's never directly met them. Not even during the original fight with Darkseid.

It's also telling that Superman, hailing from Post-Crisis, seemed to be the only one in the group who recognized Lord.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

This is definitely a New 52 Max Lord, in terms of his new history and the context of his role in this universe, but I think something happened to him (whether it be his powers activating or something else) that led him to rediscover his Post-Crisis memories.

In the actual event, he called the League "old friends," but as far as what we've seen of his history, he's never directly met them. Not even during the original fight with Darkseid.

It's also telling that Superman, hailing from Post-Crisis, seemed to be the only one in the group who recognized Lord.

Yup. This is my thinking too, especially since he seems unfazed by Johnny Sorrow and Emerald Empress saying that time has been messed with and says that he "knows things." He's like Wally. He has a New 52 past but he knows it's not the whole story. He knows he led more of a life. In fact, I think the only thing that Max is really "missing" right now is his time with the JLI. His current origin story is the exact same as it was before Flashpoint.

And now that I think about it, the fact that he says that he and the League are "old friends" really does seem important because Superman is really the only one who seems to recognize him. I didn't see anything from the other Leaguers suggesting that they knew him. Superman is the only one who seems to realize who he is.

[GreenLanternRanger]

I would have to agree. Obviously his pre-FP memories are seeping in to some degree. I doubt he remembers things fully like Wally did when he first came back, but odds are he has at least some vague notion of the gaps his (alternate?) past

[cranger]

And now that I think about it, the fact that he says that he and the League are "old friends" really does seem important because Superman is really the only one who seems to recognize him. I didn't see anything from the other Leaguers suggesting that they knew him. Superman is the only one who seems to realize who he is.

While none of the League say they don't recognize him, I would agree it seems none of them have had a run in with him anywhere near what Superman had.

I'm still open to this story going all sorts of directions even with regards to what Lord does or does not know, but if he turns out to not actually have any memories of pre-FP I would not find that going against what has been said either.

For all we know his comment about being old friends actually just refers to what happened due to the Darkseid attack. Checkmate lost their contract in the fallout and he blames them, and the rise of superhumans, for stopping his domination of the world. In his own mind it makes sense to refer to them as old friends, in a way they probably were the catalyst for a lot of what he has done since then, and he has probably been watching them since that day. He knows them more than anyone else, in a perverse sense they are probably the closest he has to friends.

It seems the castle that was supposed to be some significant clue to pre-FP continuity just turned out to be the Checkmate headquarters, at least for now, so anything can still go either way.

[sustainentropy]

This is definitely a New 52 Max Lord, in terms of his new history and the context of his role in this universe, but I think something happened to him (whether it be his powers activating or something else) that led him to rediscover his Post-Crisis memories.

In the actual event, he called the League "old friends," but as far as what we've seen of his history, he's never directly met them. Not even during the original fight with Darkseid.

It's also telling that Superman, hailing from Post-Crisis, seemed to be the only one in the group who recognized Lord.

From what his mother says in the flashback it seems that his powers now developed as a child, so if it's due to his powers coming in then he's known reality was altered for a while. I looked back very carefully at the previous issues of the crossover though, and while Max never outright denies it, he never outright states that he knows reality has been altered. It seems his plan to "save the world" means to save the world from metahumans just like his motivation in the Infinite Crisis era.

Max could have had a run in with the league at any point between Darkseid's invasion and the present day in any of his various roles. It's also possible the Ted Kord easter egg was just an easter egg.

[Green Goblin of Sector 2814]

While none of the League say they don't recognize him, I would agree it seems none of them have had a run in with him anywhere near what Superman had.

Well, I'm not even the first to point out that Superman seems to be the only one to recognize him.

Also, if Superman is the only one who knows him, then it likely means that Max and Superman share some memories in common, which would be odd given that Superman remembers Pre-Flashpoint and NOT the New 52. And you do know what went down between them, right?

For all we know his comment about being old friends actually just refers to what happened due to the Darkseid attack. Checkmate lost their contract in the fallout and he blames them, and the rise of superhumans, for stopping his domination of the world.

Doesn't even talk to any of them in the flashback.

It seems the castle that was supposed to be some significant clue to pre-FP continuity just turned out to be the Checkmate headquarters, at least for now, so anything can still go either way.

The Checkmate Castle also appears to have the same battle scars it had from Ted Kord's escape attempt there. Mind explaining that?

[cranger]

I'm not even the first to point out that Superman seems the only one to recognize him.

And? I don't disagree it is telling, I do question whether it rules out any tie whatsoever.

Doesn't even talk to any of them in the flashback.

Which is in response to what? Nothing I wrote was based on them talking in any scene, or at all.

The Checkmate Castle also has the same battle scars it had from Ted Kord's escape attempt there. Mind explaining that?

Nope. Don't care. I'm not playing games anymore lol. I am going to let the story play out and talk about things we know. We now know this has been Checkmate headquarters for quite some time.