When the Books No One Asked For Have Horrible Sales and You Start Panicking

[skyvolt2000]

how is giving away free comics taking advantage of the LCS?

maybe i am missing something... shipping prices that high or something?

The idea is to get something for them since you have to pay for shipping.

Think of them as the same as those free comic book day books. They still have to pay for shipping on those and many stores are stuck with those book remaining. And from my experience those free comic remaining fall under DC & Marvel headers-especially those link to events.

My store took all those Champions #1 and sold them for 25 cents. They left out faster than all the extra Batman related books they had. Now does that lead to sales for issue 2 and on is another story.

[skyvolt2000]

The retailer still has to pay shipping costs for these books they didn't order and don't want. Throwing them in the trash is a small but real money loser.

No they just sell them to the used book store or Movie Trading Post. They are going to get something for them.

[Tony]

No they just sell them to the used book store or Movie Trading Post. They are going to get something for them.

probably not as much as the shipping charge, gas to go to the used book store, time you pay an employee or you yourself waist. Half-price books isn't going to be happy to see 50 copies of something they cant sell. They would probably offer a dollar.

[Coal Tiger]

Or, considered that probably 2.5% of actual readers are in forums and follows charts, over shipping it's just a way to help some new book widen their readership? Oh my! That would be sensible, so in this internet world of today, must be impossible!!!

Are you saying that Marvel has a better idea of what a LCS's readership is than the LCS does? The stores order what they know their readership will buy. If books sell out, Marvel can print more copies and put out a press release about how Mosaic number whatever is getting another printing. It's in Marvel's interest to make second printings rather than flood stores with comics that no one will buy.

[Mike_Murdock]

It's in Marvel's interest to sell exactly the amount of comics demanded. Second printings are less efficient than selling more in the first printing. That being said, it's also absolutely in Marvel's interest to expand demand. The "no one will buy" aspect is exactly the issue. Why does it have to be a foregone conclusion? Marvel wants to do something to convince people to take a chance on something new. Do you have other ideas to encourage people to do that?

[Coal Tiger]

It's in Marvel's interest to sell exactly the amount of comics demanded. Second printings are less efficient than selling more in the first printing. That being said, it's also absolutely in Marvel's interest to expand demand. The "no one will buy" aspect is exactly the issue. Why does it have to be a foregone conclusion? Marvel wants to do something to convince people to take a chance on something new. Do you have other ideas to encourage people to do that?

Batman is constantly the most popular book on the stands. With few exceptions, the readers have made it clear that they don't want something new. What they can do is build interest in a character without immediately giving them a solo book. It took 7 years of being in the X-Men until Wolverine got a solo series. If they put out Wolverine #1 in 1974 he would have never caught on. Harley Quinn was a sidekick to a villain for something like a decade before anyone thought of making comic books about her. Deadpool was a tossed-off side character from New Mutants and then after years of being honed and built up, he's one of Marvel's most consistent sellers. Publishing Mosaic #1, a character no one had ever heard of by creators with a minimal fanbase was a death sentence.

Marvel needs to put in the time and do the work to make a character popular. For whatever reason, they don't seem too interested in doing that.

[penthotal]

Are you saying that Marvel has a better idea of what a LCS's readership is than the LCS does? The stores order what they know their readership will buy. If books sell out, Marvel can print more copies and put out a press release about how Mosaic number whatever is getting another printing. It's in Marvel's interest to make second printings rather than flood stores with comics that no one will buy.

Maybe it's why they give the additional comics for free?? Because that way retailers can give them free losing some cent of shipping?? Or even selling them at 50 cents to people that wouldn't buy a book at 4 dollars but could very well be interested in buying it a 1/8 of its price or buy 8 books at the price of one??

And NO, it's not in Marvel (or any other publisher) interest to make second printings. Second printings cost more, because only a few copies are generally printed (and always a lot less than the first printing) and they have to be shipped. It's neither in the interest of retailers, because of 5 people that don't find a book because it sold out, some will order a second printing but others will just not buy it.

[Panfoot]

It's in Marvel's interest to sell exactly the amount of comics demanded. Second printings are less efficient than selling more in the first printing. That being said, it's also absolutely in Marvel's interest to expand demand. The "no one will buy" aspect is exactly the issue. Why does it have to be a foregone conclusion? Marvel wants to do something to convince people to take a chance on something new. Do you have other ideas to encourage people to do that?

Putting out a completely new character in a saturated market with a 5 dollar first issue certainly doesn't seem like the best idea. I've personally been more adventurous with the smaller/weirder DC books because of the 3 dollar cost, announcing mini series as actual mini series, and knowing whether a book is double shipping or not(this one may not be as critical but it's been a pet peeve of mine about Marvel, DC is pretty reliable in that regard but I just stopped trying to figure out Marvel's schedule).

[Coal Tiger]

Maybe it's why they give the additional comics for free?? Because that way retailers can give them free losing some cent of shipping?? Or even selling them at 50 cents to people that wouldn't buy a book at 4 dollars but could very well be interested in buying it a 1/8 of its price or buy 8 books at the price of one??

And NO, it's not in Marvel (or any other publisher) interest to make second printings. Second printings cost more, because only a few copies are generally printed (and always a lot less than the first printing) and they have to be shipped. It's neither in the interest of retailers, because of 5 people that don't find a book because it sold out, some will order a second printing but others will just not buy it.

Or they'll buy it on comixology, which has apparently made Diamond distribution obsolete.

[penthotal]

Marvel needs to put in the time and do the work to make a character popular. For whatever reason, they don't seem too interested in doing that.

The reason they don't do like you and other readers ask it's simply because it's commercially ridiculous! Some characters in the past existed in team books for years before becoming popular as solo heroes, sure, but it's been a case not something calculated. Do you realize how silly from a business point of view would look if an editor, or writer said "Okay, I have this interesting character, I will keep him in a team book for a decade, and eventually if it gets big we will try to give him a solo"? Where will be that editor or writer in a decade (or five years?) Where will be that team book? What will be the editorial line of the publisher by then? Thinking this could be a sensible way of creating a character just means one doesn't understand how business and publishing works. Where the characters from Saga, or Sex Criminals, or the new Ms. Marvel, or Harry Potter, or the Lumberjanes and countless others successful fictional characters appeared before showing in their books? Nowhere.

It's not that readers are not interested in new characters like you think, it's that just some of the new characters catch their interest, but it's always been like that, in any area of publishing not just in comics. For any Harry Potter there are innumerable fantasy sagas that stopped after a volume. For any successful zombie comic there are tons of zombie comics that lasted few issues. For any Spider Man or Daredevil that are able to keep being published monthly since the sixties there is a Black Panther or a Nova and so on that are able to last for 20-30 issues any given decade. Did featuring in hundreds of FF and Avengers comics helped BP to become a mainstay? No. Did leading the Avengers for a decade helped Cage become a Daredevil? No. You all make seem a coincidence that happened 3 times in 30 years (Wolverine, Deadpool, Halery Quiin) The Golden Rule to Create a Successful Character

[Coal Tiger]

No one said it was easy to make a popular character. It just so happens that the most popular characters didn't become popular overnight.

[Mike_Murdock]

Batman is constantly the most popular book on the stands. With few exceptions, the readers have made it clear that they don't want something new. What they can do is build interest in a character without immediately giving them a solo book. It took 7 years of being in the X-Men until Wolverine got a solo series. If they put out Wolverine #1 in 1974 he would have never caught on. Harley Quinn was a sidekick to a villain for something like a decade before anyone thought of making comic books about her. Deadpool was a tossed-off side character from New Mutants and then after years of being honed and built up, he's one of Marvel's most consistent sellers. Publishing Mosaic #1, a character no one had ever heard of by creators with a minimal fanbase was a death sentence.

On the other hand, look at characters like Iron Fist, Luke Cage, etc. were part of a second wave of characters that literally were "release everything and see what sticks." Not every character succeeded, but some did. We wouldn't have Luke Cage if Marvel felt they had to build him up for years before they released him. Obviously, yes, Marvel did spin characters from team books into solo books when they became popular (Deadpool, Punisher, sorta Moon Knight, etc.) are exactly this. And they continue to do this with people like Laura getting All-New Wolverine. But it's not the only method they have and there's no reason to think it's a death sentence unless you basically agree that people only want established things (either established characters or established names) and don't want to try new things.

ETA:

Putting out a completely new character in a saturated market with a 5 dollar first issue certainly doesn't seem like the best idea. I've personally been more adventurous with the smaller/weirder DC books because of the 3 dollar cost, announcing mini series as actual mini series, and knowing whether a book is double shipping or not(this one may not be as critical but it's been a pet peeve of mine about Marvel, DC is pretty reliable in that regard but I just stopped trying to figure out Marvel's schedule).

I don't necessarily disagree. That being said, that's what the free second issue is for. One extra-sized comic for $5 is a bit pricey. But two comics, one of which is extra-sized for $5 is a bit better, no?

I do agree about Marvel's schedule being dumb. At this point, I've gotten used to the mini-series thing (that being said, they have been announcing mini-series now with Bullseye, Cage!, etc.). I think the thing is, all books are basically intended to run as long as the story and sales justify. If they say it's a mini, many people won't be invested in getting it. If it sells really well, they'd extend it regardless of what it was originally intended as. So they might as well not say it's a mini and, if it ends quickly, that's just because the story justified ending it and the sales didn't justify extending it.

[penthotal]

No one said it was easy to make a popular character. It just so happens that the most popular characters didn't become popular overnight.

Actually, the very most popular characters all started from nothing (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spiderman, FF, Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, Daredevil). Only a very selected few had a long build up that lead to become very popular (Wolverine, Harley Quinn, Deadpool). And most of the charactesr with a modicum of popularity started from nothing (Cage, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, Ghost Rider, Ms. Marvel, Doctor Strange) or appeared in other books a few times (Punisher, Silver Surfer and many other) but really nothing comparable to a Wolverine that was a main character of a team book for 10 years before going solo.

[Rich Johnston]

I see these discussions everywhere about overships but it makes zero sense to me because Marvel doesn't even get extra revenue from this. It's probably at a cost to them and probably out of their promotional budget to print extra copies of certain books.

Sites like Bleeding Cool have been jumping up and down about how Marvel is "gaming" the marker but it still doesn't make any sense because overshipping isn't actually counted by Diamond (or at least that what they say) and it doesn't add anything to Marvel's bottom line. And I'm pretty sure Marvel doesn't report market share figures to their managers because Diamond estimates doesn't give the full picture, not to mention that distributing free comics doesn't help their profit which is what a company reports to shareholders and top management.

In short, a quick analysis of all simply means that Marvel stands to gain NOTHING financially by over shipping books and stand to gain nothing by "gaming" Diamond's figures. If retailers aren't creative enough to know how to get rid of free comics then they might want to consider another line of business.

The way Bleeding Cool and some folks are using the Diamond figures as some be and all measuring stick of the comic companies performance is just wrong and as I've said before is endemic of poor news reporting that's become ubiquitous these days. I mean for the umpteenth time, Diamond doesn't even release sales estimates, it only releases rankings and folks calculate the sales by themselves, obviously some trends can be pulled from this but it'll be dubious to form opinions on line wide initiatives from them.

Yoo hoo. Overshipping counts for the unit sales chart and unit share. We have convincingly demonstrated this with the stats avaikable. And unit sales get primarily counted for the charts.

Positive comics headlines get sent to Disney by Marvel Comics. Negative comics headlines get sent to Disney by Marvel Films. It matters.

[Lemurion]

snip

I don't necessarily disagree. That being said, that's what the free second issue is for. One extra-sized comic for $5 is a bit pricey. But two comics, one of which is extra-sized for $5 is a bit better, no?

I do agree about Marvel's schedule being dumb. At this point, I've gotten used to the mini-series thing (that being said, they have been announcing mini-series now with Bullseye, Cage!, etc.). I think the thing is, all books are basically intended to run as long as the story and sales justify. If they say it's a mini, many people won't be invested in getting it. If it sells really well, they'd extend it regardless of what it was originally intended as. So they might as well not say it's a mini and, if it ends quickly, that's just because the story justified ending it and the sales didn't justify extending it.

It's not as bad for the retailers who have to order that second issue with no idea how well the first issue is going to do, but that $5 first issue is still a massive hurdle for readers, and it's not a hurdle that an overshipped second issue will help offset.

As a customer, I have to be really impressed to drop $5 on an unknown quantity. Dropping $3 on a whim isn't that bad, but $5 is much harder. Any savings the retailer may get on free copies of issue two are worthless if they can't sell issue one. Forty years ago I'd grab an issue two without blinking whether I'd read the first or not; with today's serialized stories that's not going to happen. Now I'm ignoring issue two if I didn't get issue one which is why overpriced first issues can be a tough sell.