Important Rebirth Clue? Red and Blue in New52

[SuperCrab]

Was just re-reading part of the third collection of the 2011 Action Comics and found this bit:



Thoughts?

This could be pretty key. A fifth dimensional being associates New52 Superman with the color red, saying his wish has to involve it. She also says he lost a big part of himself in the battle with the other 5th dimensional being that had unfolded, and there we see Superman Red and Superman Blue. Interestingly, within that arc, we also see Superman reference events that happened to the pre-Crisis Superman as if they had happened to him- the boxing match with the heavyweight champ, his death at the hands of Doomsday (Granted, this may have happened to new52 Superman "off-screen"- continuity is inconsistent on that point), etc.. He never references those events again.

Then we see in Rebirth, SuperDad is associated with the color blue, told he's not who he thinks he is, there's the glowing blue hand, Swamp Thing tells him he's out of sync with the universe and makes reference to blue and needing to become part of the universe, and we see the creatures trying to wipe out Supermen across the universe fail to recognize SuperDad as a Superman and go straight for the Chinese Super-Man instead.

I wonder if these events were set up as far back as the New52 Action Comics bit above. Has anyone asked Grant Morrison?

It all kind of fits with the "New52 Superman is Superman Red, SuperDad is Superman Blue, and both have to merge to be complete" theory.

[Kuwagaton]

That was indeed the first thing I remembered when the theories came around, the problem being that I really don't know if they are making a concentrated effort to follow up or if it's coincidence.

I still laugh about how they propped Pandora up as a backdoor. And yet she was wiped out specifically in Rebirth. Hmmm

[spirit2011]

That was indeed the first thing I remembered when the theories came around, the problem being that I really don't know if they are making a concentrated effort to follow up or if it's coincidence.

I still laugh about how they propped Pandora up as a backdoor. And yet she was wiped out specifically in Rebirth. Hmmm

My take? just a coincidence that will be used as a "all planned since the begining"

[K. Jones]

That was indeed the first thing I remembered when the theories came around, the problem being that I really don't know if they are making a concentrated effort to follow up or if it's coincidence.

I still laugh about how they propped Pandora up as a backdoor. And yet she was wiped out specifically in Rebirth. Hmmm

I'd like to think, or at least I imagine, that Tomasi is well aware of this scene. And Vyndktvx is not so different than Pandora, Ur-Brainiac, The Gentry, Darkseid, and Doctor Manhattan, in as much as a major cosmic force that is taking major advantage of the timeline shift to fit their own grandiose and weird extra-dimensional schemes. That said, I don't know if we'll get any direct specific callbacks to this scene. Any story that involves New 52 Superman being RED and Classic Superman being BLUE and needing to be recombined is certainly inherently thematically resonant and in keeping with this scene, Mrs. Nyxly's wish, and Mxyzptlk's gaming the system and playing a joke that actually "saves Superman" from these evil extra-dimensional cosmic forces that are trying to manipulate his timeline and life. But actually directly referencing or name-dropping this specific scene and the Vyndktvx event might be too esoteric for an accessible story.

[Netherman14]

Wasn't it due to Vyndktvx's meddling in Nu52 Superman's history here that he was "split" (for lack of a better word) into Superman Red and Blue?

[Kuwagaton]

I do see both, a clear awareness of the Morrison thread and the likelihood that bringing this up will prompt a "planned this all along " statement that won't entirely reflect the truth. The most interesting thing to me would be what Morrison would be able to confirm, if he cares at all.

[DragonPiece]

Possible, they don't need to call back on that though. Morrison only did that as a easter egg...also this gave me a throwback to disucssing morrison's AC run on here, so unappreciated.

[Ascended]

My take? just a coincidence that will be used as a "all planned since the begining"

Yup. There's no way this was all planned from the start. DC might say as much, and I do believe they had a back door of some kind planned, but I dont think what we're getting here is what they originally planned back in 2010 or 2009 or whenever it is they started plotting the reboot. They've switched gears too many times for me to believe they have anything planned beyond the current year at the most.

Morrison gave us a easter egg to a classic story. That's all. Now, if DC can warp this current nonsense around that egg so it actually makes some degree of sense? Good enough, and well done on DC's part for drawing unconnected dots together. But there's no way these guys are masterminds enough to plan all this. Not unless you think they also planned the constant continuity tweaks and revisions the early 52 gave us and the sales downturn of 2015.

[Sacred Knight]

Yeah, this was just an homage to the original Superman Red and Blue story in the pre-Crisis, like all the other pre-Crisis easater eggs Morrison was throwing out especially when Vyn really started screwing with him like Superman having a lion's head and whatnot.

Damn I miss this run.

[bat39]

It is worth noting that as per Morrison's run, in the 'original timeline' of Nuperman's life, his parents were alive and he likely would have gotten married to Lois in the future.

Was Vyndktvx somehow an agent of Manhattan or influenced by Manhattan in some way? Much like Kadabra possibly was?

It does seem there are an awful lot of beings within the context of the New 52 continuity that tampered with reality - Kadabra exiled Wally West, Mr. Twister's actions led the world to forget the original Teen Titans, Vyndktvx killed Clark's parents, some unknown entity created a fake Themyscera and history of the Amazons etc.

It does seem that barring all this tampering, the New 52 timeline, in its original state, would have been closer to the Pre-Flashpoint reality. Diana would have had her classic origin intact. Jonathan and Martha Kent would have been alive. Wally West would have been publicaly active as Kid Flash and the original Teen Titans would be remembered by the world.

The New 52, for most of its run, was set in around Year 6 or Year 7. The Year 6 and Year 7 of the Pre-Flashpoint timeline actually would have been pretty similar, if not the same, had the above been the case.

What if Manhattan not only 'stole time' from the DCU but actually opened it up for attack by all manner of other entities and villains? Hell, they could even explain the constant New 52 retcons and inconsistencies...there have actually been multiple iterations of the New 52 as Manhattan or others have constantly been tampering with the past.

So, in the early New 52 issues, the original Teen Titans existed, which is why Tim remembered them. But then Manhattan's tampering literally retcons in the Mr. Twister incident so the timeline is changed and now Tim doesn't remember the Teen Titans (at least not consciously). And so on...

[Netherman14]

It is worth noting that as per Morrison's run, in the 'original timeline' of Nuperman's life, his parents were alive and he likely would have gotten married to Lois in the future.

Was Vyndktvx somehow an agent of Manhattan or influenced by Manhattan in some way? Much like Kadabra possibly was?

It does seem there are an awful lot of beings within the context of the New 52 continuity that tampered with reality - Kadabra exiled Wally West, Mr. Twister's actions led the world to forget the original Teen Titans, Vyndktvx killed Clark's parents, some unknown entity created a fake Themyscera and history of the Amazons etc.

It does seem that barring all this tampering, the New 52 timeline, in its original state, would have been closer to the Pre-Flashpoint reality. Diana would have had her classic origin intact. Jonathan and Martha Kent would have been alive. Wally West would have been publicaly active as Kid Flash and the original Teen Titans would be remembered by the world.

The New 52, for most of its run, was set in around Year 6 or Year 7. The Year 6 and Year 7 of the Pre-Flashpoint timeline actually would have been pretty similar, if not the same, had the above been the case.

What if Manhattan not only 'stole time' from the DCU but actually opened it up for attack by all manner of other entities and villains? Hell, they could even explain the constant New 52 retcons and inconsistencies...there have actually been multiple iterations of the New 52 as Manhattan or others have constantly been tampering with the past.

So, in the early New 52 issues, the original Teen Titans existed, which is why Tim remembered them. But then Manhattan's tampering literally retcons in the Mr. Twister incident so the timeline is changed and now Tim doesn't remember the Teen Titans (at least not consciously). And so on...

That would most likely have been the deal, if the histories of Prime Earth's resident superheroes weren't meddled with and altered. unfortunately (or rather fortunately, for some of us including me).

[Kuwagaton]

It is worth noting that as per Morrison's run, in the 'original timeline' of Nuperman's life, his parents were alive and he likely would have gotten married to Lois in the future.

Was Vyndktvx somehow an agent of Manhattan or influenced by Manhattan in some way? Much like Kadabra possibly was?

It does seem there are an awful lot of beings within the context of the New 52 continuity that tampered with reality - Kadabra exiled Wally West, Mr. Twister's actions led the world to forget the original Teen Titans, Vyndktvx killed Clark's parents, some unknown entity created a fake Themyscera and history of the Amazons etc.

It does seem that barring all this tampering, the New 52 timeline, in its original state, would have been closer to the Pre-Flashpoint reality. Diana would have had her classic origin intact. Jonathan and Martha Kent would have been alive. Wally West would have been publicaly active as Kid Flash and the original Teen Titans would be remembered by the world.

The New 52, for most of its run, was set in around Year 6 or Year 7. The Year 6 and Year 7 of the Pre-Flashpoint timeline actually would have been pretty similar, if not the same, had the above been the case.

What if Manhattan not only 'stole time' from the DCU but actually opened it up for attack by all manner of other entities and villains? Hell, they could even explain the constant New 52 retcons and inconsistencies...there have actually been multiple iterations of the New 52 as Manhattan or others have constantly been tampering with the past.

So, in the early New 52 issues, the original Teen Titans existed, which is why Tim remembered them. But then Manhattan's tampering literally retcons in the Mr. Twister incident so the timeline is changed and now Tim doesn't remember the Teen Titans (at least not consciously). And so on...

Don't forget that on some level, Oz knows something we don't and is vaguely responsible for the New 52 Superman.

[Mr. Mastermind]

Wasn't it due to Vyndktvx's meddling in Nu52 Superman's history here that he was "split" (for lack of a better word) into Superman Red and Blue?

And that could be the case here. Supedad could be revealed to not actually be post-Crisis Superman but instead the Superman before Vynd's messing around, a universe which was almost exactly like the post-Crisis one.

[Ascended]

It is worth noting that as per Morrison's run, in the 'original timeline' of Nuperman's life, his parents were alive and he likely would have gotten married to Lois in the future.

Was Vyndktvx somehow an agent of Manhattan or influenced by Manhattan in some way? Much like Kadabra possibly was?

I think this is what DC is going to say. They can explain away their own mistakes and inconsistencies by saying those are effects of time being altered. Its not a bad call, honestly. I dont want to see them claim this was their plan from the start, because nothing less than notarized papers will convince me otherwise, but it'd show an interest in knitting up the DCU.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Manhattan and Ozymandias are actually the "good guys" in this story. Or rather, I wouldn't be surprised if they were dealing with a worse threat. It'll be the same thing as Watchmen but on a bigger scale. They're not trying to destroy the multiverse, they're trying to save it. And that required they smash a few universes together and pull a couple apart. Big deal. Better that than another Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Wait. Didn't Convergence erase COIE? That's (maybe) what the Watchmen are doing; trying to prevent a repeat of the Crisis.

Is that already a theory?

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I really do hope they bring Vyndktvx and Mr. Myxlptdk into all this. Morrison was so clear about explaining how the New 52 Superman was the Pre-Flashpoint Superman whose life had been rewritten by Vyndktvx that it would be weird to not mention it whenever they reconcile the two versions of Superman.