Brightest day swamp thing vs new 52 swamp thing. (Help!)

[mortymantis]

Just finished reading brightest day and have read new 52 swamp thing and Moore's run

Here's what i understand.

Holland dies in the swamp

The swamp grows the avatar using holllands conscience but not holland

Swampy plant thing (not holland) has adventures where he discovered this and gets entangled with Constantine.

Blackest night happens

Plant thingy is corrupted by Nekron

Plant thingy goes on a rampage

The life entity brings back holland (who was never swampy) to be swampy bc I guess the green just likes jollands mind


Then flashpoint happens


(this is where I need help)

Holland had been resurrected. But is the resurrection a flashnpoint new 52 new origin?it's not bc of brightest day right? Bc it didn't happen?

Or does it assume brightest day did happen?

If brightest day didn't why is holland Alive?


(I've always defended the new 52 but after reading Geoff Johns green lantern rebirth, sinestro war, blackest night, an'd brightest day....they really did mess up a good world)

[Lee Stone]

Just finished reading brightest day and have read new 52 swamp thing and Moore's run

Here's what i understand.

Holland dies in the swamp

The swamp grows the avatar using holllands conscience but not holland

Inserting - Plant avatar believes he is actually Holland mutated into a plant form, rather than a plant mutated into a somewhat human form.

Swampy plant thing (not holland) has adventures where he discovered this and gets entangled with Constantine.

Inserting - Abigail gives birth to Swamp Thing's daughter, Tefe, who eventually shows inherited plant-based abilities.

Blackest night happens

Plant thingy is corrupted by Nekron

Plant thingy goes on a rampage

The life entity brings back holland (who was never swampy) to be swampy bc I guess the green just likes hollands mind


Then flashpoint happens


(THis is where I need help)

Holland had been resurrected. But bc it's flashnpoi t it's not bc of brightest day?

Or does it assume brightest day did happen?

If it didn't why is holland Alive?


(I've always defended the new 52 but after reading Geoff Johns green lantern rebirth, sinestro war, blackest night, an'd brightest day....they really did mess up a good world)

I haven't read any of the main DC Universe Swamp Thing appearances after his Vertigo series, so I really can't comment on the Nekron thing or Brightest Day, aside from it sounds to me they were trying to distance themselves from Moore's world-building and turning him back into a Hulk or Thing type being to fit more in a superhero universe.

And I think the New52 launch was complicated because it read (at least the first issue, which I did read) more like a continuation of Brightest Day, even with Swamp Thing and Superman conversing about them both having died before.

[mortymantis]

Inserting - Plant avatar believes he is actually Holland mutated into a plant form, rather than a plant mutated into a somewhat human form.



Inserting - Abigail gives birth to Swamp Thing's daughter, Tefe, who eventually shows inherited plant-based abilities.



I haven't read any of the main DC Universe Swamp Thing appearances after his Vertigo series, so I really can't comment on the Nekron thing or Brightest Day, aside from it sounds to me they were trying to distance themselves from Moore's world-building and turning him back into a Hulk or Thing type being to fit more in a superhero universe.

And I think the New52 launch was complicated because it read (at least the first issue, which I did read) more like a continuation of Brightest Day, even with Swamp Thing and Superman conversing about them both having died before.

I have the new 52 secret origins of swamp thing. Went upstairs and pulled it out

It looks like they adhered to the plant thing origin but no brightest day. But they did bring holland back. But he was brought back for the green. So it's like the deleted the whole brightest day in new 52 but liked the idea of a resurrected holland

Man the new 52 really messed up swampy

[Lee Stone]

I have the new 52 secret origins of swamp thing. Went upstairs and pulled it out

It looks like they adhered to the plant thing origin but no brightest day. But they did bring holland back. But he was brought back for the green. So it's like the deleted the whole brightest day in new 52 but liked the idea of a resurrected holland

Man the new 52 really messed up swampy

BTW...
Now, this is just speculation on my part... but take from it what you will...

In my mind, it looks like there's a fork in reality... quite possibly when Swamp Thing made his last appearance in the DC Universe proper (around Invasion).
In both realities Holland died and the Swamp Thing avatar was born from the swamp (in the Vertigo Universe) and believed itself to be Holland until the events with Floronic Man revealed the truth.

The Plant-Elemental avatar Swamp Thing had to have existed in the main DC Universe because the JLA appeared in the Floronic Man encounter, he was involved with Crisis, he teamed up with Superman in DC Comics Presents #85, he fought with Batman and he was a major factor in Constantine's first appearance.

The last appearance of Swamp Thing in the main DC Universe looks to be Captain Atom #16 & 17 and then Superman guest starred in his title a few months later in #79, and #80 & 81 were involved with Invasion, during which Swamp Thing appeared to have died.

This is where reality would likely fork, with the events in Swamp Thing's book (#82-on) taking place in the new Vertigo reality and Swamp Thing believed dead in the main DC Universe reality from that point on.
I don't think he ever appeared in the DC Universe proper again after his 'death' during Invasion. I may be wrong, however.

Everything that occurred before #82 could likely be a shared history that happened in both realities.

This kinda correlates with a theory that Animal-Man shifted reality during #18-26 of his series, the Doom Patrol appeared to have shifted reality during #19-22 of their series, and Shade the Changing Man's series likely didn't happen in the DC Universe (beginning after all the other core Vertigo titles began moving away from the DC Universe).

[mortymantis]

BTW...
Now, this is just speculation on my part... but take from it what you will...

In my mind, it looks like there's a fork in reality... quite possibly when Swamp Thing made his last appearance in the DC Universe proper (around Invasion).
In both realities Holland died and the Swamp Thing avatar was born from the swamp (in the Vertigo Universe) and believed itself to be Holland until the events with Floronic Man revealed the truth.

The Plant-Elemental avatar Swamp Thing had to have existed in the main DC Universe because the JLA appeared in the Floronic Man encounter, he was involved with Crisis, he teamed up with Superman in DC Comics Presents #85, he fought with Batman and he was a major factor in Constantine's first appearance.

The last appearance of Swamp Thing in the main DC Universe looks to be Captain Atom #16 & 17 and then Superman guest starred in his title a few months later in #79, and #80 & 81 were involved with Invasion, during which Swamp Thing appeared to have died.

This is where reality would likely fork, with the events in Swamp Thing's book (#82-on) taking place in the new Vertigo reality and Swamp Thing believed dead in the main DC Universe reality from that point on.
I don't think he ever appeared in the DC Universe proper again after his 'death' during Invasion. I may be wrong, however.

Everything that occurred before #82 could likely be a shared history that happened in both realities.

This kinda correlates with a theory that Animal-Man shifted reality during #18-26 of his series, the Doom Patrol appeared to have shifted reality during #19-22 of their series, and Shade the Changing Man's series likely didn't happen in the DC Universe (beginning after all the other core Vertigo titles began moving away from the DC Universe).

All of that is pre new 52?

Are you taking into account his brightest day return?

Also what would everyone like to see in a swamp thing rebirth?

[Lee Stone]

All of that is pre new 52?

Everything up through #81 happened in the main DCU, prior to Flashpoint, with #80 and 81 being tied in to the events of Invasion.
It's likely that they wiped everything after #81 from existence, as he had made no more appearances in the DC Universe after his apparent 'death' during Invasion (as far as I remember).

Are you taking into account his brightest day return?

I haven't read it... so I'm not sure how it would fit in regarding when he officially 'disappeared', except for the interesting bit that Pandora merged the Vertigo realities back in at the end of Flashpoint.
So it's likely that his return in Brightest Day disregarded his non-DC history (from #82-up), while Pandora merged his Vertigo history (#82-up) in afterwards.

Also what would everyone like to see in a swamp thing rebirth?

I still think that Moore's take on the character, turning the concept on its head by having him actually be a plant that thought he was a man, was the best by far.
And there's a strong groundwork with Abigail and Tefe.
However... I'd prefer they made Tefe the main character and focus on her as the modern Swamp Thing.

Maybe what she needs is a good push, with a strong writer and popular artist.
Perhaps even a road-trip kind of mini-series with her, Poison Ivy and Black Orchid.

I'd go with Amanda Connor and Fiona Staples.
With variant covers by Adam Hughes.

[mortymantis]

Everything up through #81 happened in the main DCU, prior to Flashpoint, with #80 and 81 being tied in to the events of Invasion.
It's likely that they wiped everything after #81 from existence, as he had made no more appearances in the DC Universe after his apparent 'death' during Invasion (as far as I remember).



I haven't read it... so I'm not sure how it would fit in regarding when he officially 'disappeared', except for the interesting bit that Pandora merged the Vertigo realities back in at the end of Flashpoint.
So it's likely that his return in Brightest Day disregarded his non-DC history (from #82-up), while Pandora merged his Vertigo history (#82-up) in afterwards.



I still think that Moore's take on the character, turning the concept on its head by having him actually be a plant that thought he was a man, was the best by far.
And there's a strong groundwork with Abigail and Tefe.
However... I'd prefer they made Tefe the main character and focus on her as the modern Swamp Thing.

Maybe what she needs is a good push, with a strong writer and popular artist.
Perhaps even a road-trip kind of mini-series with her, Poison Ivy and Black Orchid.

I'd go with Amanda Connor and Fiona Staples.
With variant covers by Adam Hughes.

Brightest day take some place prior to flash point. It re introduced swampy back into the main continuity. It had the plant creature being corrupted and holland brought back to life to be the real swampy. But then they rebooted everything with Pandora where they merged everything.

In the reboot (new 52) swampy is there and uses the resurrection idea from brightest day but ignores brightest day. Basically says the green brings him back to life


His reintroduction back into the main continuity (in brightest day pre new 52) was so clever to just sad they wiped that out so quick in the new 52


For a rebirth I'd like to see a swampy that wasn't so horror driven. But a little "brighter"

[MajorHoy]

The best rule of thumb for anything that's New 52 . . . assume that NOTHING from pre-Flashpoint continuity happened before (or exactly as you had read about it then) unless it's confirmed within the New 52 stories.

It's a simple idea folks . . . New 52 WAS A REBOOT (except for some Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison stuff because DC probably didn't want to hurt their egos or have them quit in a tizzy while they were still writing New 52 stuff for DC).

[Lee Stone]

Brightest day take some place prior to flash point. It re introduced swampy back into the main continuity. It had the plant creature being corrupted and holland brought back to life to be the real swampy. But then they rebooted everything with Pandora where they merged everything.

In the reboot (new 52) swampy is there and uses the resurrection idea from brightest day but ignores brightest day. Basically says the green brings him back to life


His reintroduction back into the main continuity (in brightest day pre new 52) was so clever to just sad they wiped that out so quick in the new 52


For a rebirth I'd like to see a swampy that wasn't so horror driven. But a little "brighter"

Thanks for the primer.
And I agree that it was crazy to heel-turn so quickly on his re-introduction.
I put it in the same category as JLI: Generation Lost (as in... well, let's scrap this idea, even though we just started it, for something else and then wish we kept the original plans because the resulting product suffered when the better ideas were tossed out and deemed off-limits).

Btw... New52 Abigail..?
OMG.
It was almost like seeing the '90s return and claim her because they missed her the first time...

[Lee Stone]

The best rule of thumb for anything that's New 52 . . . assume that NOTHING from pre-Flashpoint continuity happened before (or exactly as you had read about it then) unless it's confirmed within the New 52 stories.

It's a simple idea folks . . . New 52 WAS A REBOOT (except for some Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison stuff because DC probably didn't want to hurt their egos or have them quit in a tizzy while they were still writing New 52 stuff for DC).

Yeah...
It's best to ignore EVERYTHING from before New52.
And then, even, be suspect of anything in the first few months when only one or two writers were privy to what did happen.

I would say to ignore any of the New52 books that didn't make it through the first full year (think of them as a fever dream), the Shade mini-series (which read like it acknowledged Starman and the Congorilla/Starman League), any arcs written by writers that bailed out during the first year and anything written by Liefeld (which most of has been retconned by now so it's easier to ignore).

And then don't ignore the Batman, Green Lantern and Legion stuff right away, as the New52 launches continued from them... but then by the time the direction was settled (after the first wave of cancellations and the writers leaving), less of these three's preNew52 stories were now relevant. This is where the cherry-picking of what did and didn't happen preNew52 with Batman and Green Lantern begins. Legion was simply cancelled and ignored altogether to avoid this (and imagine the headache that would have caused considering the New52 Legion was basically a continuation of Levitz's 2010 Legion, which picked up from the end of his '80s run. By the time the dust settled, the New52 Legion would fit more in the pre52 universe, like the Shade mini-series, except that they made it tied to the New52 by having Legion Lost in the New52 universe. But then, Legion Lost made it just past the first year, so that may or not have been retconned out now).

[Vilynne]

Have you guys actually read the N52 Swamp Thing? It makes many references to PreN52 continuity.

I'm not sure how to make spoiler tags, so the next bit is spoilers.

In the 5 Years Later/ Futures End story, Swamp Thing is victorious, because oh the White Lantern ring given to him from Brightest Day. In Soules run, Moore's Swamp thing, and really all Vertigo Swamp Thing, emerged from the green. It decided to finally take its resetting spot among the green, presumably after Blackest Night. He is known as the greatest Swamp Thing, and has his appearance from Moore's issue "My Blue Heaven", where Swamp Thing is on his blue Planet. Were never left fully clear what was and what wasn't in continuity, but its safe to assume Moore's run is at least canon. Tefé is never seen or anything, and Abby has her hair due from Mark Millard run , but later has her more traditional hair style. The Gray also return in Soules run, but it doesn't seem at all connected with the Grey from Wheelers run, and there's no mention of those events, or Matango or anything.

As far as Swamp Thing being shifted into another reality post-invasion, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. For one thing, the Vertigo imprint didn't begin until Nancy A. Collins was writing the series, which was around '92 I believe (I might be wrong), while Invasion was in '88. Veitch was still writing Swamp Thing for another 5 or so issues, before Wheeler took it on for 21(iirc) issues. That's a big gap of Swamp Thing being in limbo, and then being moved to the Vertigo universe.

[Tetragrammar]

It's best just to be approach New 52 Swamp Thing as its own thing. There's nods and references to the old series but that's about it. Now, who knows what Rebirth will readjust or reset. But for me, I want a fully developed story with Tefe Holland and Maxine Baker of Animal Man and I always love stories that feature the different kingdoms (red, green, rot, grey...etc.)

[mortymantis]

It's best just to be approach New 52 Swamp Thing as its own thing. There's nods and references to the old series but that's about it. Now, who knows what Rebirth will readjust or reset. But for me, I want a fully developed story with Tefe Holland and Maxine Baker of Animal Man and I always love stories that feature the different kingdoms (red, green, rot, grey...etc.)

So which one is it? Does new 52 continue (like the previous poster who said it mentions brightest day) or is it just nods.

As far as a rebirth. Is the new hellblazer book part of rebirth? I don't follow it. I know constatine and swampy go together.

[Lee Stone]

Have you guys actually read the N52 Swamp Thing? It makes many references to PreN52 continuity.

I'm not sure how to make spoiler tags, so the next bit is spoilers.

In the 5 Years Later/ Futures End story, Swamp Thing is victorious, because oh the White Lantern ring given to him from Brightest Day. In Soules run, Moore's Swamp thing, and really all Vertigo Swamp Thing, emerged from the green. It decided to finally take its resetting spot among the green, presumably after Blackest Night. He is known as the greatest Swamp Thing, and has his appearance from Moore's issue "My Blue Heaven", where Swamp Thing is on his blue Planet. Were never left fully clear what was and what wasn't in continuity, but its safe to assume Moore's run is at least canon. Tefé is never seen or anything, and Abby has her hair due from Mark Millard run , but later has her more traditional hair style. The Gray also return in Soules run, but it doesn't seem at all connected with the Grey from Wheelers run, and there's no mention of those events, or Matango or anything.

As far as Swamp Thing being shifted into another reality post-invasion, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. For one thing, the Vertigo imprint didn't begin until Nancy A. Collins was writing the series, which was around '92 I believe (I might be wrong), while Invasion was in '88. Veitch was still writing Swamp Thing for another 5 or so issues, before Wheeler took it on for 21(iirc) issues. That's a big gap of Swamp Thing being in limbo, and then being moved to the Vertigo universe.

I read the first few issues of the New52 Swamp Thing before I dropped all the New52 books in one big lump out of frustration (throwing the baby out with the bathwater).
Swamp Thing was okay, as it payed homage to a lot of Moore things and I felt like it was heading towards being interesting.
The kid in the bubble reminded me of the boy with the monkey, and the Invunche rekindled memories of the best era of Moore's run.
However, biker chick Abigail kinda ruined it for me.

The whole reason I pointed to the post-Invasion fork is because (as far as I remember) he had no more dealings with the superhero side of the DC universe after his supposed death, so it's likely that from that point on the superhero community never knew he was still alive.
Meanwhile, the Doom Patrol all died in Invasion (well most of them) and Morrison's revamp began right after.
Animal-Man stuck around in the DC Universe after Invasion, even joining JLE. But he went through changes during the story with Psycho Pirate and disappeared from the main DC Universe well ahead of the March 1993 branding of Vertigo, with his title becoming 'for mature readers' with #51.

Basically, between Invasion and the branding of Vertigo, the mature reader fringe titles that would form the core of the new imprint (Animal-Man, Doom Patrol, Hellblazer, Sandman, Shade the Changing Man and Swamp Thing) were each moving further away from the main universe and into their own corner.
Of course, this didn't appear too noticeable at the time because the mature reader titles already tended to distance themselves as much as possible from the newstand comics at the time to keep the kids from feeling a need to pick up the adult titles. Even Black Canary was removed from JLI to avoid conflicts with the mature Green Arrow book.
As such, it wasn't really so much that they were Vertigo books (as they weren't until '93) but rather that they were mature reader titles that led them to stop appearing in the main DC comics.
It's just convenient that their disappearances from the DCU because they were now 'mature' properties gives a point where the Vertigo split began.

Now, this here is personal head canon stuff, but in my interpretation, the appearances of the characters prior to them being shunted into the mature readers corner happened in the pasts of both the DCU and Vertgo Universe. A shared timeline.
But then when they got shunted away from the bright and shiny PG-13 superhero universe, they simply went into DCU's comic book limbo and their comics 'ceased publication'.
Meanwhile, the comics that continued being published with the 'mature readers' label existed in a separate timeline which would become Vertigo and eventually be merged back into the main DCU by Pandora when the main DCU matured enough that the older 'mature content' stuff was no longer too different from the darker tone of modern comics.

[Vilynne]

I read the first few issues of the New52 Swamp Thing before I dropped all the New52 books in one big lump out of frustration (throwing the baby out with the bathwater).
Swamp Thing was okay, as it payed homage to a lot of Moore things and I felt like it was heading towards being interesting.
The kid in the bubble reminded me of the boy with the monkey, and the Invunche rekindled memories of the best era of Moore's run.
However, biker chick Abigail kinda ruined it for me.

The whole reason I pointed to the post-Invasion fork is because (as far as I remember) he had no more dealings with the superhero side of the DC universe after his supposed death, so it's likely that from that point on the superhero community never knew he was still alive.
Meanwhile, the Doom Patrol all died in Invasion (well most of them) and Morrison's revamp began right after.
Animal-Man stuck around in the DC Universe after Invasion, even joining JLE. But he went through changes during the story with Psycho Pirate and disappeared from the main DC Universe well ahead of the March 1993 branding of Vertigo, with his title becoming 'for mature readers' with #51.

Basically, between Invasion and the branding of Vertigo, the mature reader fringe titles that would form the core of the new imprint (Animal-Man, Doom Patrol, Hellblazer, Sandman, Shade the Changing Man and Swamp Thing) were each moving further away from the main universe and into their own corner.
Of course, this didn't appear too noticeable at the time because the mature reader titles already tended to distance themselves as much as possible from the newstand comics at the time to keep the kids from feeling a need to pick up the adult titles. Even Black Canary was removed from JLI to avoid conflicts with the mature Green Arrow book.
As such, it wasn't really so much that they were Vertigo books (as they weren't until '93) but rather that they were mature reader titles that led them to stop appearing in the main DC comics.
It's just convenient that their disappearances from the DCU because they were now 'mature' properties gives a point where the Vertigo split began.

Now, this here is personal head canon stuff, but in my interpretation, the appearances of the characters prior to them being shunted into the mature readers corner happened in the pasts of both the DCU and Vertgo Universe. A shared timeline.
But then when they got shunted away from the bright and shiny PG-13 superhero universe, they simply went into DCU's comic book limbo and their comics 'ceased publication'.
Meanwhile, the comics that continued being published with the 'mature readers' label existed in a separate timeline which would become Vertigo and eventually be merged back into the main DCU by Pandora when the main DCU matured enough that the older 'mature content' stuff was no longer too different from the darker tone of modern comics.

Well head canon certain is different. I enjoyed the N52 run. Both Snyder and Soules run.