Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider Series from Peter David and Mark Bagley

[Vworp Vworp]

I have no qualms with you not liking the manner of his return, obviously. What boggles my mind a bit is the statement that you don't recognize the character. His attempt to embrace a new sense of morality doesn't invalidate who he was. I'm not the same person I was five years ago, or ten years ago, or thirty years ago - and yet I AM that person. Ben, too, is who he always was and yet seeks to move beyond that. I can identify with that desire. I can also identify with thinking you've got life figured out, then getting a huge swerve that makes you question everything you thought you had figured out.

Despite the changes, the Ben we see in Clone Conspiracy still strikes me as the man who said, "Life is in the living."

I mean no disrespect, Vworp, but can you explain why the Ben we both read about in the 90s cannot possibly have become the man he is now? Like, where exactly is the dissonance as you see it?

Ben in The Lost Years tried to reject morality because he felt it wasn't his. It wasn't an exploration into what was right and what was wrong, it was a conflict of identity. And even at his darkest, Ben's actions could rarely be defined as 'villainous'. There were losses of control certainly, outbursts of anger, sure. But Ben never succumbed to the darkness. For me, one of his defining qualities was how he fought that darkness, made the right choice, believed in helping people, all in spite of the uncertainty and regret he was living with in terms of his own 'life'.

We're skirting around this soundbite of Ben's 'new sense of morality'. But let's look at what that actually means. I can't equate the Ben I just described with one who, regardless of any trauma and pain and suffering decides that people don't matter. That hurting people... perhaps killing people... is OK. And there's nothing to suggest that won't happen, based on PD's description. "He is a hero or a villain playing to that particular moment in time...." This isn't simply a Ben questioning morality. This is a Ben who, according to PD, will commit villainous acts. For now, we don't know the nature of those acts. But the options are basically

a) they're saturday morning cartoon villainous acts, all kinda roguish and charming and only aimed at other villains. Which would be something of a cop-out, based on PD's interview. Although obviously, I'd be perfectly cool with that!

or b) No grey areas, no simply turning a a blind eye but an outright act of evil that causes an innocent person pain or suffering. Not an outburst of anger or loss of control - Ben dealt with those in TLY - But something pre-meditated, something planned, something intentional. That's where I can't see Ben.


I'd be interested to hear from yourself, and anyone else that's OK with Ben's new status quo as it is now. Could PD have Ben do anything in his examination of morality and you'd still be cool with it? Assault? Murder? Cruelty? Or is there still a line? And if so, where does that line fall for you?

[madrox83]

I think PAD will stay within acceptable levels of villainy like the type we have seen so far.an example is using people's emotions to essentially blackmail them with the New U stuff. We all do little acts of villainy and in Ben's case maybe it will be stopping a robbery but taking a little off the top since he may not have a job. Kaine I did that in his series and I don't think it would destroy Ben. I dunno little things like that I'd let slide.

[classicgmer]

I was just trying to give a name to the Ben-as-Spidey / happier / blonde Ben that it seemed like others were describing. I wasn't trying to in any way diminish or oversimplify that version of the character. My apologies for coming off that way.

-Pav, who enjoys civility...

No problem. Also I know it might seem strange to some folks that people in creative positions would seek to antagonize certain fanbases but the way they cater to or interact with some of these fanbases is certainly strange to say the least.

"You want Jean Grey back!! No problem have you some time displaced teenage Jean Grey"

"Ben Reilly!? No problem you can have all the PTSD, mentally unhinged Ben Reilly who now has trouble deciphering between what's right & wrong you can handle!!"

"That Prowler series you've been asking about? No problem but first we have to kill him off and replace him with his own clone to make him more interesting!"

I mean good grief I know some of these fanbases can be difficult to deal with and it's impossible to please everyone but it seems like they like to use the m. night shyamalan "what a twist!!" method a hell of a lot.


Also if you don't believe people in creative positions will intentionally antagonize their fanbases then go watch you some "Sports entertainment/Pro wrasslin" and then get back to me. Not to say they do it all the time & it's indicative of what most folks in creative positions do but it does happen.

[classicgmer]

Uhhh...and how do you know it`s going to be a perpetually status quo? He just came back from an event where he makes morally dubious decisions and now has to live with it and go from there..

Well the biggest obstacle in Ben returning up until this point was that in Marvel's eyes he was too similar to Peter and that he was a failed plot device in obtaining a single Peter. They've now apparently found the best way to make use of him while differentiating him from Peter so I doubt they're going to be going away from it anytime soon if at all.

I don`t get it. I mean, I get the fans who don`t feel this direction or think it`s bad but how can you respond to a fellow poster saying "he`s trying too hard" and then make a statement you can`t possibly back up as of now? Right now I think him using the name he first became a hero with and the writer saying he will have his good (pre-death, let`s call it) side to clash with whatever Warren made him go throught is not an indication that they want Ben to stay a villain. That`s already an open door on the go.

Well #1 it was a misunderstanding that's hopefully been cleared up & #2 I'm sure the angel & the devil side will clash quite a bit but I'd expect that mentally unstable Ben who has trouble deciding what's right & wrong will be around for quite a long time.

Jason Todd came back as a "villain" according to the writer who wrote the event of his return but guess what? He was always written as more in the grey by the man who made that very statement. Afterwards some writers tried to push to the villain/psycho camp. Guess what? That failed hard and now we have this great character making a name in the franchise.

Well as you say it was apparent very early on that Jason was more comfortable operating in the grey areas & while he did have his time a psycho & villain I think there was always very little doubt he'd ever be a straight up "do things the right way by the book" good guy. Maybe Ben does come out of this more along the lines that Jason did but they never really were the same type of character to me.

[Kurolegacy]

No problem. Also I know it might seem strange to some folks that people in creative positions would seek to antagonize certain fanbases but the way they cater to or interact with some of these fanbases is certainly strange to say the least.

"You want Jean Grey back!! No problem have you some time displaced teenage Jean Grey"

"Ben Reilly!? No problem you can have all the PTSD, mentally unhinged Ben Reilly who now has trouble deciphering between what's right & wrong you can handle!!"

"That Prowler series you've been asking about? No problem but first we have to kill him off and replace him with his own clone to make him more interesting!"

I mean good grief I know some of these fanbases can be difficult to deal with and it's impossible to please everyone but it seems like they like to use the m. night shyamalan "what a twist!!" method a hell of a lot.


Also if you don't believe people in creative positions will intentionally antagonize their fanbases then go watch you some "Sports entertainment/Pro wrasslin" and then get back to me. Not to say they do it all the time & it's indicative of what most folks in creative positions do but it does happen.

Monkey's paw is the terminology I believe you were looking for. Kinda like ASM 700 for those who wanted Peter/MJ. They got it but with Doc sock in Peter's body.

[Aioros22]

Well the biggest obstacle in Ben returning up until this point was that in Marvel's eyes he was too similar to Peter and that he was a failed plot device in obtaining a single Peter. They've now apparently found the best way to make use of him while differentiating him from Peter so I doubt they're going to be going away from it anytime soon if at all.

That remains to be seen tho. They also have to play on his older fanbase to help sell his return and it wouldn`t be good Money to simply crap on it. No, there will be cavetaes and whatever current status-quo likey won`t be absolute.

Well as you say it was apparent very early on that Jason was more comfortable operating in the grey areas & while he did have his time a psycho & villain I think there was always very little doubt he'd ever be a straight up "do things the right way by the book" good guy. Maybe Ben does come out of this more along the lines that Jason did but they never really were the same type of character to me.

Jason`s case is interesting to study, because despite misteps, Office and writers have been using him slowly and progressing his character. He`s still in the grey compared to the other Bats but he`s been written since the New52 reboot as someone who wants to outgrow the pain he was dealt with after the events of Under The Red Hood. He`s still the guy that when pressed for it will do what the others can`t (stated by Batman, including himself) but he`s not a psycho anymore. His heart is in the greater good. If a city or friends are in peril and there`s no time for a Plan C? Blazing guns.

Jason is still someone with his demons, he`s not a nice happy guy like Dick, but we know where his heart is and that makes the difference.

They may do something similar with Ben. In fact. I could mention Bucky too but there`s the military conception in the character that makes the way he acts more straighforward.

[Metamorphosis]

However, I disagree on this. Peter and MJ for me all the way. Ben and Jessica however, I'm ok with

Well yeah, Mary Jane is the only one for Peter.

But it would've made for a good side story for awhile, at some point. I know Jessica was Ben's love interest, but he's been powdered sugar for about 20 years.

There are just too many good story possibilities in pairing up the daughter of Uncle Ben's killer with Uncle Ben's nephew to have not explored it further.

[John Ossie]

Well yeah, Mary Jane is the only one for Peter.

But it would've made for a good side story for awhile, at some point. I know Jessica was Ben's love interest, but he's been powdered sugar for about 20 years.

There are just too many good story possibilities in pairing up the daughter of Uncle Ben's killer with Uncle Ben's nephew to have not explored it further.

For a story for a little while I guess I could live with. If it hadn't been for the fact that Peter and MJ have been separated for years now due to OMD LOL.

But yeah the story possibilities definitely have potential as you say Cheesedique.

[classicgmer]

That remains to be seen tho. They also have to play on his older fanbase to help sell his return and it wouldn`t be good Money to simply crap on it. No, there will be cavetaes and whatever current status-quo likey won`t be absolute.

It does remain to be seen but ultimately that's generally the direction it will be going based on their opposition to bringing him back for so long for being too similar to Peter. Maybe he does swing back in a direction that's closer to his pre Clone Conspiracy resurrection but in my estimation that's a long ways off if it happens at all & I seriously doubt I'll be too interested by that point.





Jason`s case is interesting to study, because despite misteps, Office and writers have been using him slowly and progressing his character. He`s still in the grey compared to the other Bats but he`s been written since the New52 reboot as someone who wants to outgrow the pain he was dealt with after the events of Under The Red Hood. He`s still the guy that when pressed for it will do what the others can`t (stated by Batman, including himself) but he`s not a psycho anymore. His heart is in the greater good. If a city or friends are in peril and there`s no time for a Plan C? Blazing guns.

Jason is still someone with his demons, he`s not a nice happy guy like Dick, but we know where his heart is and that makes the difference.

They may do something similar with Ben. In fact. I could mention Bucky too but there`s the military conception in the character that makes the way he acts more straighforward.[/QUOTE]


I may have missed it but I don't really recall too many people upset that Bucky wasn't brought back as Cap's plucky sidekick so I don't believe there was massive resistance to his new direction. I think there were some gripes involved in the details of his return & how he became a master assassin but to my knowledge people didn't really have a huge issue with his new direction.

[Huntsman Spider]

It does remain to be seen but ultimately that's generally the direction it will be going based on their opposition to bringing him back for so long for being too similar to Peter. Maybe he does swing back in a direction that's closer to his pre Clone Conspiracy resurrection but in my estimation that's a long ways off if it happens at all & I seriously doubt I'll be too interested by that point.





Jason`s case is interesting to study, because despite misteps, Office and writers have been using him slowly and progressing his character. He`s still in the grey compared to the other Bats but he`s been written since the New52 reboot as someone who wants to outgrow the pain he was dealt with after the events of Under The Red Hood. He`s still the guy that when pressed for it will do what the others can`t (stated by Batman, including himself) but he`s not a psycho anymore. His heart is in the greater good. If a city or friends are in peril and there`s no time for a Plan C? Blazing guns.

Jason is still someone with his demons, he`s not a nice happy guy like Dick, but we know where his heart is and that makes the difference.

They may do something similar with Ben. In fact. I could mention Bucky too but there`s the military conception in the character that makes the way he acts more straighforward.

I may have missed it but I don't really recall too many people upset that Bucky wasn't brought back as Cap's plucky sidekick so I don't believe there was massive resistance to his new direction. I think there were some gripes involved in the details of his return & how he became a master assassin but to my knowledge people didn't really have a huge issue with his new direction.[/QUOTE]

I think because we didn't really "know" Bucky pre-Winter Soldier the way we knew Ben. Bucky, for the most part, was a posthumous character explored through Steve Rogers's memories and recollections of him, whereas Ben was a co-protagonist with Peter and then the protagonist in the Spider-Man comics for two years straight, so we got to actually know who Ben was in "real time," more-or-less, not simply through someone else's memories and recollections of him, but following him as (one of) the lead protagonist(s) of Spider-Man. In that time, there was a very strong establishment of who Ben was that took firm root in most fans' minds when we thought about him after his untimely and editorially enforced end, and his current usage and characterization clashes with the Ben we knew and loved. That's what it amounts to, and Jason Todd isn't a perfect comparison, either, because even as Robin, Jason was more brutal towards criminals than Batman was, stemming from his own unique experience with how criminals thought and operated, so "Red Hood" was a natural extension of that tendency that showed what he'd be like without Batman to rein him in. The stories featuring Ben in the time he was alive gave no indication that he could have become something like the New U Jackal we see now, so it's a much bigger stretch for a lot of us to swallow than with Jason, and as said before about Bucky, Bucky wasn't really a character we "knew" before he came back as the Winter Soldier.

[boots]

I think because we didn't really "know" Bucky pre-Winter Soldier the way we knew Ben. Bucky, for the most part, was a posthumous character explored through Steve Rogers's memories and recollections of him, whereas Ben was a co-protagonist with Peter and then the protagonist in the Spider-Man comics for two years straight, so we got to actually know who Ben was in "real time," more-or-less, not simply through someone else's memories and recollections of him, but following him as (one of) the lead protagonist(s) of Spider-Man. In that time, there was a very strong establishment of who Ben was that took firm root in most fans' minds when we thought about him after his untimely and editorially enforced end, and his current usage and characterization clashes with the Ben we knew and loved. That's what it amounts to, and Jason Todd isn't a perfect comparison, either, because even as Robin, Jason was more brutal towards criminals than Batman was, stemming from his own unique experience with how criminals thought and operated, so "Red Hood" was a natural extension of that tendency that showed what he'd be like without Batman to rein him in. The stories featuring Ben in the time he was alive gave no indication that he could have become something like the New U Jackal we see now, so it's a much bigger stretch for a lot of us to swallow than with Jason, and as said before about Bucky, Bucky wasn't really a character we "knew" before he came back as the Winter Soldier.

i think that's a fair way of teasing out the differences between the bucky/todd/reilly revivals. i'll admit that i had to sit with my feelings after ben's unmasking in cc.

the thing is, fans of the character have been sitting on their own personal fantasies of his return for 20 years. the comic landscape has changed both in universe and irl since, and a lot of those pet theories probably wouldn't work as well now as they might have say 15 years ago.

i'm going to elect to trust the creative team and their process: all stories start in one place and have to finish in another.

[DV1Band]

Ben went through desperate times before. He was barely able to eat. Maybe he'll do what Kaine did, and start stealing from bad people.

[DV1Band]

There's no reason to be smarmy. I care about more than the name and the hair, and I would think that's obvious to anyone who has read my posts.

Here's how I see the progress:

1. Ben loses the Shea Stadium fight against Peter and hits the road. He's suicidal and has no clue what to do with his life. He feels no purpose. He's a man without an identity.

2. Over time, Ben slowly begins to create a new identity for himself, yet he still struggles with having to give up his identity as Peter Parker.

3. When he finally comes back to NYC, fighting alongside Peter against the Jackal helps to clarify things for him, and he strengthens his sense of self. Having Peter and MJ as family gives him a greater sense of purpose, especially when Peter steps aside as Spidey. At this point, Ben feels a comfort that he has never felt before: he may not be able to reclaim his life as Peter Parker, but Ben Reilly has his own friends, and he rejoices in being Spider-Man once again.

4. Everything Ben has fought for is quickly taken away. He sacrifices himself to save Peter and dies a hero, just as Peter would.

5. He is ressurrected by Miles Warren, who then proceeds to kill and ressurrect him over and over and over. Finally, Ben is able to free himself and get some manner of revenge. He finds that his perspective has changed due to his torturous experience. He seems no longer satisfied being Peter Parker in everything but name: he embraces the freedom that comes with his situation rather than focusing on the tragedy; yet he is seen as a madman by others due to his new views on life (and death).

6. Presumably, the events of the Clone Conspiracy will leave Ben feeling lost, uncertain, and even a little crazy. His comic will, potentially, show us a Ben building himself back up again.

So, yes, it seems like a continued progression to me. Ben found some happiness in his life when he became Spidey again, but he was still strongly tethered to his desire to be Peter Parker - to be the man in action, if not in name. It makes sense to me that, after what has happened to him, he no longer has that comfort. He's back to wandering and wondering, and I'm excited about that. I understand that others may be disappointed with Ben's upcoming status quo, but I think it's a mistake to write it off as inherently wrong or out of character. I can't help but feel that fans of the character should at least try out the book before judging it's handling of Ben, rather than make a snap judgment that's based on the character returning in a way that may be less than ideal.

I mean, I wouldn't have brought back Ben as an unhinged person, but I'm willing to give it a shot because I can see how the character got there. It makes sense to me. And my hope is that we will see Ben continue to grow by dealing with his issues and forging an even grander identity as Ben Reilly than he ever did for himself in the past.

-Pav, who is maybe wasting his time...

To some degree, I'm on board with your statement. I just worry about Kaine and Aracely being tossed aside. Years ago, had anyone asked me if I wanted a Kaine book in place of a Ben book, I would have said no. However, seeing his forward progress, I now question why I would want another Ben book, especially with theses conditions. However, I'll attempt to see where it leads, and hope for the best. I realized that the great thing about comics is that I still have the older stories that I can read as well.

[Probalus]

It's funny... Back in the 90's the explanation for Ben's much more optimistic outlook vs Peter's was that he was kind of away from all the stuff that damaged and broke Peter during that era, i.e. Harry's death, fake parents, pressure of the marriage, finding out he was a "clone", etc. Yes, Ben also had his fair share of experiences while in exile, many of which molded him and made him a lot more resilient, but still, we all know the potential was there for him to be broken, and evidently being tortured to death dozens of times and remembering those experiences did that to him. I don't think it's out of character, he is a clone of Peter and we know Peter had gone off the edge a few times in the past already. Not to mention Kaine was always a template for Ben as a more unhinged version of himself...

The question is whether Ben will come back from the edge like Peter and Kaine both did. And I have a feeling that'll be what this series is about.

[DV1Band]

It's funny... Back in the 90's the explanation for Ben's much more optimistic outlook vs Peter's was that he was kind of away from all the stuff that damaged and broke Peter during that era, i.e. Harry's death, fake parents, pressure of the marriage, finding out he was a "clone", etc. Yes, Ben also had his fair share of experiences while in exile, many of which molded him and made him a lot more resilient, but still, we all know the potential was there for him to be broken, and evidently being tortured to death dozens of times and remembering those experiences did that to him. I don't think it's out of character, he is a clone of Peter and we know Peter had gone off the edge a few times in the past already. Not to mention Kaine was always a template for Ben as a more unhinged version of himself...

The question is whether Ben will come back from the edge like Peter and Kaine both did. And I have a feeling that'll be what this series is about.

My gut is telling me that either Kaine will pull him back, or Ben will just walk off into the sunset and give Kaine his blessing.