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  1. #121
    Fantastic Member TruthAndJustice's Avatar
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    "...or Diana started her superhero career 5-15 years before Batman."

    Yep. Nobody ever talked about it, but back in the Earth-One days (1960s-1985), Wonder Woman made her first public appearance before Superman did. Her career in Man's World started roughly the same time that Clark Kent made his first appearance as Superboy!

  2. #122
    The Comixeur Mel Dyer's Avatar
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    What's with all of the '^' or 'A' symbols on her uniform?

    Those cryptic symbols are on her shield, belt buckle and collar. I think, early in the Rebirth planning period, some writer or editor had given Donna a codename, probably something that started with 'A', and the artist, who designed her new look, was told to incorporate some symbol of it into her uniform. I think it was, then, ditched by editors, for some reason, ..maybe, just before the Titans comic went to press.

    If that's what happened, could the reason it was ditched have something to do with a change in her rebirthed origin or backstory?
    Last edited by Mel Dyer; 02-08-2018 at 04:08 PM.
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  3. #123
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I posted something like this over in the Titans thread in the main forum. Basically, I'd base it as much as possible on her pre-Crisis origin with elements of her first post-Crisis origin applied here and there.

    Rhea would be the one Titan not imprisoned in Tartarus because Zeus loves his mommy. So she wanders off into space, and creates New Chronos. In the modern day, she rescues orphan children from 12 different worlds and imbues them with some of her power and knowledge, burying it deep within them so they can grow into it naturally (creating Titan Seeds), before returning them to their world to be raised by those best suited to bring them up. Donna is rescued from the fire and left by Rhea in a temple on Themyscira, where she is found and adopted by Hippolyta. At the age of 13 or 14, she leaves to follow her big sister in Man's World and becomes Wonder Girl. Dick helps her uncover her origins in the mortal world, and she then eventually learns of her ties to the Titans of myth, which gives her a niche in the Greek mythological world that her more famous sister doesn't deal with that much (if at all). This would allow locations like New Chronos and characters like Athyns and Sparta to be present. I would also utilize the pre-Crisis setup for Thia and the unrealized Children of the Sun to give her more impressive foes of her own.

  4. #124

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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    She's not?
    Ah! When I mentioned Rhea gave her the name Troia, and you said, "It made sense though. It's the sort of name I'd expect a Titan to have," I thought you meant it's the sort of name you'd expect a Titan of Myth to have, so it makes sense since it was given to her by a Titan of Myth, who considered her essentially a daughter by adoption. And I was pointing out that she currently has no connection to the Titans of Myth.

    But if what you meant was it's the sort of name you'd expect a Titan (that is, a member of the Titans superhero team) to have, I'd respectfully question that. All the rest took on adult names that meant something in English, and related to their powers. Or, in Nightwing's case, his appearance, his style of superheroing (at night, on rooftops above the city), and a previous superhero he identified with. Donna got none of that.

    I feel the same way about Donna getting the name Troia as I do about Garth, when he grew up and gave up his Aqualad identity, taking on the superhero name Garth-O. Except, of course, he didn't do that.

    To me, Troia seems like a name - like Garth-O - that the writers pick when they're short on time and can't think of anything better. Or don't want to try.

    (I say "seems" because I wasn't in the room when the decision was made. Possibly it was the result of a great deal of creative thought, and considered the clear and outstanding winner of a long list of alternatives. But that's not the way I experience it as a reader.)

    Hell, maybe Donna's due for a new "Who Is Donna Troy?: Lies & Truth story arc.
    We can only hope. And, with "Titans Rebirth" (approximately speaking) still going on, and Doomsday Clock messing with time and history, they can design something that they feel best suits the character and her role in the Wonder Woman mythos and the rest of the DCU. And they shouldn't use her many past, conflicting, no-longer-in-continuity origins as an excuse to make her current origin cluttered, confusing, and overcomplicated.

    The details I would most like to see in a Donna Troy origin: she is a child born in Man's World, in a fairly ordinary way. (No deifiic parent, or magical books about Greek myth that fall on her when a lightning bolt strikes the bookcase.) Due to interesting circumstances, she spends some of her time growing up on Themyiscra, and some of her time growing up in Man'w World. On Themycira, she is Hippolyta's adopted daughter and Diana's loving younger sister. In Man's World as a teenager, she is a member of the original Teen Titans, where she forms close, life-long friendships.

    Something I would also like to see: when she lives in Man's World, she lives with a family, and/or adoptive parents, and/or a guardian. She goes to high school and and gets to have a lot of the experiences that many American teenagers do - when she's not out superheroing.

    Those are the broad strokes. There are a lot of ways to fill in the details.

    As ever,
    Doctor Bifrost
    Last edited by Doctor Bifrost; 02-08-2018 at 06:20 PM.
    Doctor Bifrost

    "If Roy G. Bivolo had seen some B&W pencil sketches, his whole life would have turned out differently." http://doctorbifrost.blogspot.com/

  5. #125
    Ultimate Member MajorHoy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Bifrost View Post
    Ah! When I mentioned Rhea gave her the name Troia, and you said, "It made sense though. It's the sort of name I'd expect a Titan to have," I thought you meant it's the sort of name you'd expect a Titan of Myth to have, so it makes sense since it was given to her by a Titan of Myth, who considered her essentially a daughter by adoption. And I was pointing out that she currently has no connection to the Titans of Myth.
    Uh, that wasn't me who said that.
    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Bifrost View Post
    (1) Rhea gave Donna the name Troia. (Thanks, Rhea! )
    It made sense though. It's the sort of name I'd expect a Titan to have.

  6. #126
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    I honestly don't mind the idea that her childhood as Diana's adopted little sister was an illusion retroactively created for her by the Amazons because her childhood as Diana's adopted little sister was literally a retcon created for her by Marv Wolfman because she was the result of editorial miscommunication.

    That said, I think her origins need to be simplified considerably. They need to choose between Rhea, Dark Angel or the Fates as her original creator, stick with the false childhood created by the Amazons, and proceed from there.

    Rhea seems like the most appropriate pick since it connects her to the team she's most associated with and the Titans of Myth, which keeps her firmly in Wonder Woman's mythological background. Dark Angel seems to have returned as simply a dark future version of Donna, which works well enough, but I don't think she needs to be involved in Donna's origin. The Fates could be the ones who kidnapped her from Rhea to be used instead as a weapon against the Amazons, who subsequently defeated her and gave her memories of being Diana's adopted little sister.

    That seems to be the easiest and simplest way of reconciling all her various origins in the least convoluted manner while also giving Donna new wrinkles to explore and justifies all the confusion she'd had about her own origins throughout the years. She was created to be a weapon for the Titans of Myth and the Fates, but was transformed by the Amazons into something new and better. That gives her a nice bit of yin & yang of darkness and light within her that can help her be not only Wonder Woman's little sister, but also her own person.

  7. #127
    Fantastic Member wonder39's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthAndJustice View Post
    "...or Diana started her superhero career 5-15 years before Batman."

    Yep. Nobody ever talked about it, but back in the Earth-One days (1960s-1985), Wonder Woman made her first public appearance before Superman did. Her career in Man's World started roughly the same time that Clark Kent made his first appearance as Superboy!
    Is this continuity timeline or just comics timeline?

  8. #128

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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    Uh, that wasn't me who said that.
    Ah! My apologies.
    Doctor Bifrost

    "If Roy G. Bivolo had seen some B&W pencil sketches, his whole life would have turned out differently." http://doctorbifrost.blogspot.com/

  9. #129

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    That seems to be the easiest and simplest way of reconciling all her various origins in the least convoluted manner...
    I don't see why they have to reconcile all her various origins, rather than picking the best one and working from there.
    Doctor Bifrost

    "If Roy G. Bivolo had seen some B&W pencil sketches, his whole life would have turned out differently." http://doctorbifrost.blogspot.com/

  10. #130
    Obsessed & Compelled Bored at 3:00AM's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Bifrost View Post
    I don't see why they have to reconcile all her various origins, rather than picking the best one and working from there.
    Because confusion about who she is and where she's from has been a recurring theme for her for the majority of her publishing history, it makes more sense to steer into that than to pretend it doesn't exist.

    Geoff Johns did the same thing with Hawkman & Hawkgirl when he reconciled their various origins by baking in their multiple memories and identities to their whole shtick. Of course, then the New 52 muddied the waters by rebooting again, but the foundation was there, and it appears that those versions of the characters have returned in Metal.

    Even prior to Crisis, one of Donna Troy's keystone stories was "Who is Donna Troy". Her quest for identity and longing to understand who she is and where she came from is similarly baked into her character. The reveal that her past was an illusion created for her by Hippolyta, Diana, and the Amazons feels like an interesting way of doing that.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Because confusion about who she is and where she's from has been a recurring theme for her for the majority of her publishing history, it makes more sense to steer into that than to pretend it doesn't exist.
    But going in that direction makes it more easy for the next writer who comes along to add another retcon to her origin.

  12. #132
    Mighty Member Dethi's Avatar
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    Abnett in this interview talk a little about the changement of Donna origins in Rebirth https://www.newsarama.com/38578-tita...s-history.html

  13. #133

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bored at 3:00AM View Post
    Because confusion about who she is and where she's from has been a recurring theme for her for the majority of her publishing history, it makes more sense to steer into that than to pretend it doesn't exist.

    Geoff Johns did the same thing with Hawkman & Hawkgirl when he reconciled their various origins by baking in their multiple memories and identities to their whole shtick. Of course, then the New 52 muddied the waters by rebooting again, but the foundation was there, and it appears that those versions of the characters have returned in Metal.

    Even prior to Crisis, one of Donna Troy's keystone stories was "Who is Donna Troy". Her quest for identity and longing to understand who she is and where she came from is similarly baked into her character. The reveal that her past was an illusion created for her by Hippolyta, Diana, and the Amazons feels like an interesting way of doing that.
    Well, I'll just have to say that I disagree completely. I think the confusion has been a function of writers treating her as an afterthought, and has not been good - in fact, has been steadily worse - for the character. I understand the concept of trying to turn a vice into a virtue, but it just doesn't work for me here. It just takes the careless treatment of her by multiple authors and enshrines it.

    The simplest origin - infant rescued by someone (Hippolyta is my preference) and raised on Themysicra - still has plenty of room for Donna yearning to know "who she really is," as we saw in the first "Who Is Donna Troy?" But mixing her her origins together makes that a question with no answer, or an answer so complicated that it doesn't feel like an answer.

    And I really dislike the idea of her memories of life on Themysicra being fake, or mainly fake. (Oh, they're doing that with everybody these days!) I want Donna to have an actual loving, sisterly relationship with Diana, and a actual family relationship with Hippolyta and the Amazons. Not a fake one that they invented and pretended was real out of pity. (It also seems cruel, and something of a violation. Instead of actually helping Donna come to terms with who and what she really is, we'l just impose some fake memories on her to eliminate the problem.)

    I realize we're unlikely to agree on this. Thank you for an interesting conversation.
    Doctor Bifrost

    "If Roy G. Bivolo had seen some B&W pencil sketches, his whole life would have turned out differently." http://doctorbifrost.blogspot.com/

  14. #134

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dethi View Post
    Abnett in this interview talk a little about the changement of Donna origins in Rebirth https://www.newsarama.com/38578-tita...s-history.html
    An evil Donna comes from the future, the Titans defeat her, and the response of the Justice League is to break up the Titans and lock current-day Donna (who has done nothing wrong) up.

    And the Titans just let them, with Dick asking Bruce, "Have I disappointed you?"

    Wow! I really can't get behind this. It's the infantilization of the Titans.

    Meanwhile, evil Tim Drake comes from the future and tries to kill, first Batwoman, then an 11-year-old Superboy. Do they lock up current-day Tim Drake? Not a chance.

    DC has ben treating the Titans, and especially Donna, like trash ever since Ginger Wally West came back. (And, in several cases, earlier than that.) From my point of view - probably because I really like the characters, or did - it hasn't made for fun stories.

    But that's just me.
    Doctor Bifrost

    "If Roy G. Bivolo had seen some B&W pencil sketches, his whole life would have turned out differently." http://doctorbifrost.blogspot.com/

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Bifrost View Post
    It's the infantilization of the Titans.
    Must there be a Justice League?

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