What origin would you give Donna Troy in Rebirth?

[Agent Z]

Attachment 43746

You don't say?

Okay, why is that a good thing?

[Outside_85]

Um, doesn't this just give her an origin way too similar to Raven?

Depends if you make the Titans evil. That said, it's kinda like most demi-deities origin stories because the offspring nearly always ends up being raised by the non-divine half of the parents. Raven's raised on Azerath by monks, Diana/Cassandra were raised by amazons and humans, Heracles was raised by his mother and so on.

I am proposing Donna has a similar origins to them, but using the Titans instead. Which could be interesting if the writer comes to the realization, like Wolfman had done, that the Titans weren't evil beings as such, they were just in the way of their children's ambitions. (Since they tend to shy away from the fact Chronos ate most of them in the myths). In stories this could be handled as the Titans just being bigger douche-bags than the Olympians, but not the world-ending tyrants they may have been perceived as.

Also I am suggesting that Donna is different in the way that she doesn't have biological parents as such, the Titans simply create her the same way Prometheus created mankind. As such, while Diana has taken over Cassandra's old 'daughter of Zeus' mantle, Donna will be given the the clay birth in proper form... without the need of melted Hippolyta's a human sacrifices. Also it would make some sense the Titans would 'construct' Donna rather than sire her the normal way... since if any, the Titans know of rebellious children.

[CRaymond]

Okay, why is that a good thing?

Feminism for one.

Donna is a character made popular in that she's defined by her den-mother, and girl-next-door behaviors. Those behaviors are supporting at best, and objectifying at worst. And that's pretty much her extent. Her origin, her personal life, her attempts at uniqueness, all become fridged in favor of bringing her back to the Titan franchise. Her relationship to Diana still feels tangential and surface, despite the extra and considerable efforts of Phil Jimenez.

Then there's Raven, a character defined by her victimhood. A horrifying origin, and an entire life spent in fear of her father' influence. Yes, I get that she's DC Comics clumsy attempt at Rosemary's Baby. Her powerset, her behaviors, her relationships are all defined by her inherited traumas. She's never anything more than Rosemary's Baby, complete with her own body horror tropes.

So you look back at Wonder Woman, and you think about what kind of sister she would really have. She herself was raised in the considerable shadow of her mother, the legendary heroine Hippolyte --A woman whose legend inspired her to travel to Man's World and fight for love, truth, and peace. A sister in that family would be frozen solid from being raised in the overlapping shadows of those colossal women. AND she'd be desperate for any kind of unique sense of self.

THEN you factor in Titans animated, and the success of the chemistry that exists between the five leads. Robin is street-level tactical, Starfire is intrastellar pulp ingenue, Cyborg is science gone wrong, and Beast Boy is weird. Raven is the magical/mythological component, and her attitude is cold and dour.

I see it as a case of two birds and one stone. Yes, it'd take a considerable retcon to get Raven onto Themyscira, but she's the perfect Jan to Diana's Marsha, the perfect Nanaja to Gloriana Demeter. She's a Hermione to Diana's Hippolyte. AND she's a magic adept --to counter he sister's dominance of physical prowess.

Let's imagine a world Angela Troy bears Trigon's daughter on a burning ship, wherein Azarath is Themyscira, where Donna learns Amazon/Ancient Greek magical disciplines and escapes to Man's World to visit her sister and learn her origin. After joining the sidekicks and becoming Wonder Girl, she discovers her parentage and takes the name Raven. It even gives "Darkstar" a place in her story arc --as the final, adult, self-actualized and self-accepting persona of Donna of Themyscira.

[Outside_85]

Feminism for one.

Donna is a character made popular in that she's defined by her den-mother, and girl-next-door behaviors. Those behaviors are supporting at best, and objectifying at worst. And that's pretty much her extent. Her origin, her personal life, her attempts at uniqueness, all become fridged in favor of bringing her back to the Titan franchise. Her relationship to Diana still feels tangential and surface, despite the extra and considerable efforts of Phil Jimenez.

Then there's Raven, a character defined by her victimhood. A horrifying origin, and an entire life spent in fear of her father' influence. Yes, I get that she's DC Comics clumsy attempt at Rosemary's Baby. Her powerset, her behaviors, her relationships are all defined by her inherited traumas. She's never anything more than Rosemary's Baby, complete with her own body horror tropes.

So you look back at Wonder Woman, and you think about what kind of sister she would really have. She herself was raised in the considerable shadow of her mother, the legendary heroine Hippolyte --A woman whose legend inspired her to travel to Man's World and fight for love, truth, and peace. A sister in that family would be frozen solid from being raised in the overlapping shadows of those colossal women. AND she'd be desperate for any kind of unique sense of self.

THEN you factor in Titans animated, and the success of the chemistry that exists between the five leads. Robin is street-level tactical, Starfire is intrastellar pulp ingenue, Cyborg is science gone wrong, and Beast Boy is weird. Raven is the magical/mythological component, and her attitude is cold and dour.

I see it as a case of two birds and one stone. Yes, it'd take a considerable retcon to get Raven onto Themyscira, but she's the perfect Jan to Diana's Marsha, the perfect Nanaja to Gloriana Demeter. She's a Hermione to Diana's Hippolyte. AND she's a magic adept --to counter he sister's dominance of physical prowess.

Let's imagine a world Angela Troy bears Trigon's daughter on a burning ship, wherein Azarath is Themyscira, where Donna learns Amazon/Ancient Greek magical disciplines and escapes to Man's World to visit her sister and learn her origin. After joining the sidekicks and becoming Wonder Girl, she discovers her parentage and takes the name Raven. It even gives "Darkstar" a place in her story arc --as the final, adult, self-actualized and self-accepting persona of Donna of Themyscira.

Yeah... I kinda would prefer Donna and Raven remaining separate entities for a number of reasons... but I'm not off the idea of Raven and Donna being maternal sisters.
Like say we use John's expanded origins and Angela came from a very religious home, she has a child at an way too early age and is forced to put it up for adoption. This is ofc Donna and she ends up being Wonder Girl... with all the sunshine, friends and flowers that could come with that.
Then we have the story of Angela running away and doing something tremendously stupid... like joining a cult. And you end up with Raven.

It could develop an interesting dynamic between the two characters, because while they are both good and heroic at heart... the fact is one of them grew up in hell and the other in heaven and both of them carry it around with them. On the other hand, Donna would be growing basically without knowing who she is.

[CRaymond]

Sure! But how do you get Donna from orphanage to magical island?

[Agent Z]

Feminism for one.

Donna is a character made popular in that she's defined by her den-mother, and girl-next-door behaviors. Those behaviors are supporting at best, and objectifying at worst.

These behaviors are not inherently anti-feminist, especially since Donna is not the only female character in either the Titans or Wonder Woman.

Her relationship to Diana still feels tangential and surface, despite the extra and considerable efforts of Phil Jimenez.

Which is an issue with the writers and editors not the character.

Then there's Raven, a character defined by her victimhood. A horrifying origin, and an entire life spent in fear of her father' influence. Yes, I get that she's DC Comics clumsy attempt at Rosemary's Baby. Her powerset, her behaviors, her relationships are all defined by her inherited traumas. She's never anything more than Rosemary's Baby, complete with her own body horror tropes.

Well, her current solo is working on moving her beyond that and seems to be succeeding.

So you look back at Wonder Woman, and you think about what kind of sister she would really have. She herself was raised in the considerable shadow of her mother, the legendary heroine Hippolyte --A woman whose legend inspired her to travel to Man's World and fight for love, truth, and peace.

Um, that’s not why Diana left Themyscira. Diana’s never been portrayed as feeling like she’s in Hippolyta’s shadow.

A sister in that family would be frozen solid from being raised in the overlapping shadows of those colossal women. AND she'd be desperate for any kind of unique sense of self.

Actually, Donna did have those issue in Titans but it came more from not knowing her biological family.

THEN you factor in Titans animated, and the success of the chemistry that exists between the five leads. Robin is street-level tactical, Starfire is intrastellar pulp ingenue, Cyborg is science gone wrong, and Beast Boy is weird. Raven is the magical/mythological component, and her attitude is cold and dour.

And this has what to do with Donna?

I see it as a case of two birds and one stone. Yes, it'd take a considerable retcon to get Raven onto Themyscira, but she's the perfect Jan to Diana's Marsha, the perfect Nanaja to Gloriana Demeter. She's a Hermione to Diana's Hippolyte. AND she's a magic adept --to counter he sister's dominance of physical prowess.

Let's imagine a world Angela Troy bears Trigon's daughter on a burning ship, wherein Azarath is Themyscira, where Donna learns Amazon/Ancient Greek magical disciplines and escapes to Man's World to visit her sister and learn her origin. After joining the sidekicks and becoming Wonder Girl, she discovers her parentage and takes the name Raven. It even gives "Darkstar" a place in her story arc --as the final, adult, self-actualized and self-accepting persona of Donna of Themyscira.

I know you mean well, but all of this sounds way more complicated than either character’s origins and doesn’t seem worth erasing two well liked female characters by clumsily smashing them into one character.

[Outside_85]

Sure! But how do you get Donna from orphanage to magical island?

'Saved from a fire?'

Or Ares steps on the orphanage.

[CRaymond]

These behaviors are not inherently anti-feminist, especially since Donna is not the only female character in either the Titans or Wonder Woman.

Donna is hardly central to the stories told in Wonder Woman. As for Titans, she's the Mary Ann to Starfire's Ginger. You can continue to argue that Wolfman did not have anti-feminist intentions when he began to really work with the Wonder Girl character, but I think an essential part of any hero development related to the Wonder Woman franchise is a pro-feminist agenda. Filling a role that's even ironically objectified is boring.

Which is an issue with the writers and editors not the character.

I'd argue it's an issue with the worldbuilders, especially given Rebirth's heavy handed emphasis on "legacy", "family" and "hope". If they DIDN'T start with a timeline that incorporates a Donna Troy, they're shooting themselves in the foot. She's one of DCU's most prevailing sore spots.

Well, her current solo is working on moving her beyond that and seems to be succeeding.

Good for them?

Um, that’s not why Diana left Themyscira. Diana’s never been portrayed as feeling like she’s in Hippolyta’s shadow.

Diana is inspired by Amazon ideals, exemplified by the ideals of her mother, their Queen.

Actually, Donna did have those issue in Titans but it came more from not knowing her biological family.

Okay? Telling me about the Titanic doesn't shoot holes in the boat I'm building, it only further informs.

And this has what to do with Donna?

That the Wonder Woman franchise has mythological and magical origins, and the Titans is sold as the "next generation of the Justice League". I'm saying the things that Raven has in the chemistry of the most popular Titans is the thing that a little-sister Donna needs more of, and that the Wonder Woman franchise implies as a requirement.

I know you mean well, but all of this sounds way more complicated than either character’s origins and doesn’t seem worth erasing two well liked female characters by clumsily smashing them into one character.

Aside from that being the nicest thing you've ever said to me, you make it sound like my opinions have any weight whatsoever with DC editorial. I barely have friends in this forum. I have creative thoughts and feelings and I share them. I REALIZE Donna and Raven are well-liked, but knowing about someone else's darlings doesn't prevent me from killing them. I REALIZE this Frankenstein reads complicated, but from my perspective a character overflowing with combined elements is more streamlined than a concept-limited Raven and a precious but frayed Donna Troy. I'm unrepentantly outside-the-box.

All that being said, I can easily participate in other people's origin builds.

'Saved from a fire?'

Or Ares steps on the orphanage.

Circa... 15 years before Rucka's Year One? Does Ares know the island's location? Does Hippolyta save her? Do Amazons occasionally venture to Man's World for supplies and a few heroic turns?

[Outside_85]

Circa... 15 years before Rucka's Year One? Does Ares know the island's location? Does Hippolyta save her? Do Amazons occasionally venture to Man's World for supplies and a few heroic turns?

In the New 52 they did.

[CRaymond]

I guess we should talk about how New52's Themyscira is nested within the Rebirth timeline. If we imagine that Ares or something polluted the pocket that the island sits in, then Amazons that existed only INSIDE the polluted timeline were able to visit the unpolluted exterior universe and retrieve Donna?

Is that why Diana can't remember being raised alongside her sister? Because once escape the polluted bubble dimension, returning to it would create another nested dimension? I'm seeing layers of reality being folded back in on themselves, and it's making sense in my head but it is NOT making sense typing it out.

[Doctor Bifrost]

In my limited experience, those that read text and parse it into bits come in two varieties, those that pessimistically point at the gaps and those that optimistically fill in the gaps. I'm delighted that you're the latter.

Thanks!

Maybe Usculesp a second generation Titan, son of Theia, Titaness of Sight... a Titan by lineage, but expressing a monstrous appearance like the cyclops(precedent:Polyphemus)...

Yes, I intended something much more like this - not one of the "primary" Titans, but someone related to them and fighting on their side - or maybe just his own side. And he wasn't meant to be a "Latin Titan," I just grabbed the Latin name for mirror (and scrambled it) when I was making up a name. I deliberately didn't include all the details that are in my head - I was just using the parts that mapped out an origin for Donna.

[CRaymond]

Tell me your details!

[Red obin]

anything more simple then before..... yet ironically giving her another origin would probably just confuse more people.Magical "clone"/sister created by villain(Circe?) who is around 13-15 sent into Themiscara to discover any secrets but becomes very close to Diana before she leaves for America. After Diana returned to paradise island a few months after she left and claims Earth is safe to explore, Donna betrays her master and leaves becoming Diana's partner and sidekick the new wonder girl. When Donna's titan memories were erased her memories of Diana were also lost.She remembers Circe and returns where Circe tells her that her origin was her new 52 one and the amazons should not be trusted.New 52 happens, then she gets her memories back and Rebirth happens.
[IMG=CONFIG]43808[/IMG]

[ed2962]

I like the idea of her being an orphan who's raised by the Amazons.

[CRaymond]

So let's have Diana use her mother's Magic Mirror from Earth One. Let's say she's 9-years-old, lonely and bored, and used to being cared for by her mother and other Amazons, so she use the Mirror to look for a "little sister".

The Mirror shows her 2-year-old Stacy Hinckley, who's being raised by a single mother. So maybe there's an apartment fire, and Diana's watching through the mirror. Something magical and superdramatic happens, and 2-year-old Stacy sees 9-year-old Diana banging on the other side of the floorlength mirror in the apartment. Stacy walks THRU THE LOOKING GLASS and ends up on Themyscira. Without a way to send the child back, Hippolyte raises the young girl as her second daughter.

12 years pass, and Donna is trained in all the various Amazon disciplines. Eventually, Donna learns of the rumors that she isn't from Themyscira at all, and visits the oracles to learn more. The oracle provides the knowledge of a spell to return to Man's World, and Donna takes it. Donna ends up in Man's World and is believed to be amnesiac and wildly imaginative by the orphanage system.

I have no idea how she would get Diana powers though, or why Diana wouldn't immediately seek out her sister once SHE arrives in Man's World.