Inhumans vs XMEN #2 (Spoilers)

[ZNOP]

Hnestly, I've never thought of that AJpyro -- I'd certainly hit him with a link to the posts I just made if I knew where to put it.

[nx01a]

BTW, if anyone were wondering whether to read the tie-in issue of Uncanny Inhumans 18, I figured I'd chime in since I read it. My criteria for whether to buy and read a tie-in is it has to be accessible to someone who hasn't been reading the series and it has to contribute meaningfully to the main story. Based on that, I would suggest not buying it.
It's a fun story. It also seems poised to set up something that's either central to the resolution or dangle false hope in what's a red herring. I've been burned far too many times (e.g., Thunderbolts in the original Civil War, Moon Knight in Shadowland, etc.), so I'm assuming it's absolutely the latter. I'll post a description of the relevant part in spoiler code for those who want to know what it is:
spoilers:

Basically, it confirms that the Terrigen Crystals aside from the cloud are gone. The last of it (a very small amount) was used up this issue. Then again, the person who said this is Maximus, who is very unreliable. It's clear the crystals are widely believed to be gone, though, even if not completely gone). The plot of the issue, however, is that Maximus has discovered the secret formula to recreate Terrigen. If he successfully recreates the crystals, it'll stop the war since the Inhuman royals would stop defending the cloud. Of course, his motives are unclear at best.

end of spoilers

I actually enjoyed UI #18. Maximus was giving off that nonchalant Lucifer Morningstar vibe I like, and I've always liked Maximus.
It'll be interesting to see how Maximus goes forward with his plan now that he can in theory spoilers:

create terrigen.

end of spoilers

[Mike_Murdock]

Since the entire royal family seems to have forgotten that the Terrigen Crystals form naturally in the subterranean caves on Luna -- one would think that the Terran Inhumans would have considered using the catalyst(s) that the "Universal Inhumans" use in an attempt to resolve the problem Maximus and Blackbolt created on Earth.

Am I missing something there about the Terrigen crystals growing on the moon? I'm certainly not seeing them there.

Regarding the other catalysts, those are species specific, I would imagine, but maybe Al Ewing could explore that when the Inhumans go back in space since the Universal Inhumans are out in space.

ETA: Or were you only referencing the Marvel Wikia for the idea that they grow naturally on the moon. I wish the wiki had a cite for that. Any idea where that appeared in comics?

[ZNOP]

Am I missing something there about the Terrigen crystals growing on the moon? I'm certainly not seeing them there.

Well, the Inhumans did lived on Attilan for centuries -- they had to replenish the spent crystals at some point. They must have grown replacement crystals themselves.

Regarding the other catalysts, those are species specific, I would imagine, but maybe Al Ewing could explore that when the Inhumans go back in space since the Universal Inhumans are out in space.

Species specific? Well, it quite possible but, as far as I know all 5 species of Inhumans undergo "genesis" in one fashion or another -- but, nothing says they don't use the same substance under a different name as the catalyst.

ETA: Or were you only referencing the Marvel Wikia for the idea that they grow naturally on the moon.

I misspoke when I said the the moon (See: Fantastic Four #240) -- I should have said Attilan.

I wish the wiki had a cite for that. Any idea where that appeared in comics?

Son of M #2

[Outside_85]

[

i don't remember them saying anything except "no more phoenix." Never did they say "make more mutants"

Maybe I'm wrong though. It's been quite a while since I re read the issue.

Regardless I kinda see your point comparing the phoenix and the t mist, with one glaring exemption- the t mist is killing people whereas the Phoenix dispersing didn't.

My mistake, as we shall see. I might be confusing it with a line from Childrens Crusade.

Not directly, I agree, but looking at the full picture, people who turn out to be mutants usually have their lives ruined with friends and family often abandoning and disowning them, and on top of this it makes them a target for the various extremist hate groups that think mutants should be gone.

Please be honest as to what actually happened in the books and do not make up stuff just to win an argument.

And please remember this is a years old story and that the majority of people, like me, do not have a flawless memory.

M-day was considered genocide in the comics, so it is a canon fact.
And it wasn't just woking up being humans, the depowered mutants were harshly persecuted by anti-mutants groups even more because they were more vulnerable without their powers, a lot also died because they depended on their powers to live, and the remaining mutants that didn't lost their powers were even more persecuted and many were killed because their enemies view this as an opportunity to exterminate them for good. So It wasn't just being depowered, they were very harmed and very inconvinienced because of it, and suffered a lot during a long time.

Considered a genocide by whom is the question you need to answer. Because if its someone like Scott, you have to consider he has a vested interest in making it sound as bad as possible. I know the UN later considered mutants an engendered species they needed to protect.. with Sentinels, but I haven't heard them consider it a genocide. (you are ofc welcome to correct me on this)
Regarding persecution, I would say you can't really blame Wanda for creating this problem, since it was already there before she did anything. It got worse yes, but it's not like it painted a target on people that wasn't already there (those hate groups would attack full powered mutants as well if they could get away with it.)

It's the complete opposite for the inhumans, it is more likely that they're going to be harmed and inconvinienced by going through terrigenesis and gaining powers, they could become monsters, or die, and not only that I don't know Black Bolt's intentions in awakening all the inhumans, they used to be secluded and their breeding was very controlled, not every human went through terrigenesis, they had to go through some screening on their genetics and then getting aproval from a council so why the need for everyone to be inhumans now eh? I have the feeling they're going to use the NuHumans as canon fodder.

I fear you are right that it was the imagined fate of a lot of NuHumans, because of how the change was done in contrast to the usual process. But it also kinda highlights that the Inhumans generally do not appear as powerful as natural mutants, Black Bolt is an unusual exception to this.

Mutants didn't caused their own extinction and they didn't called the Phoenix, and they didn't wiped out an entire species to reignite the x-gene. The Phoenix did caused deaths on it way to earth but again the X-men didn't called it, Wanda "Karma Houdini" Maximoff did it, she provoked it to come when she made the mutants dissapear. There was no other superhero team more qualified and experienced to deal with the Phoenix than the X-men ,so they should have been left alone, in any case the Shi'ar should have been involved too.

Technically you could say mutants kinda do... Like mutants were for the longest time considered the next evolutionary step. It's even the basis of Magneto's philosophy that homo superior are the new human race and homo sapiens should just disappear quietly into the night with the other dinosaurs. As such, reigniting the x-gene is a death sentence on the human race as we know it. On the other side of the argument, you could look as mutations as natures way of testing out where the human race goes next, as such every mutant is the sole member of their own race and eventually nature would decide which strand of mutation is the one to stick with and collectively only one kind of mutant would move forwards... like the telepaths, and every other sort would be weeded out with time.

But no, we needed to make a massive retcon on the Phoenix Force so Earth's Mightiest Jerks could be the heroes and save the day right? And by the way where is SS Shield in all this mess eh? They were always pestering and persecuting the x-men for defending their people, why aren't they doing the same with the Inhumans for releasing an alien substance in the atmophere.

Shield is likely not pestering the Inhumans because they are a nation while the mutants are a fraternity.

Right the bomb detonated itself and Blackbolt had no hand in it. Let's be honest now. . .

As for your second paragraph see infinity #6.

Ok, lets. Lets agree that humans would not have been revealed to be either mutants or inhumans had either group not been poking around these things?

there was a boom following AvX. Mutant #s rose to the thousands. They are nowhere near the millions there were before but there is quite alot of them out there relative to deciMation. Besides a life is a life. Even this cloud was potentially killing a couple of hundreds, thats still too many especially since its unnecesary

They RF do gain something and thats an increase in their numbers and procurement of their race.

That is true, but its the same for everyone in both cases.
Which isn't selfish, that's a boon to their nation, not them personally... like its not like Medusa picks all of the NuHumans up to be her personal handmaidens or back-scratchers.

They moved the school to avoid the cloud, why else would they move? The inhumans are helping with the RIV but think about the burden this places on mutants/anyone who doesn't want to be in the cloud. They have to abandon their home for however long, the poor and homeless may not even know the cloud is coming or be able to reach the RIV in time. People have to rearrange their lives so that the inhumans can keep their cloud.
Obviously the RIV isn't saving people fast enough because mutants have died. It's in now way reasonable or responsible to expect the entire planet to just bend to the whims of a cloud.

In recognition that they are living in an increasingly dangerous world and need to make somekind of safe haven that cannot be easily reached by most people. Which I could say is the same kind of burden it must be to live in Tornado Ally or around the Mexican Gulf with all the hurricanes. Plus the narrative of the 8 months is that most humans are now just staying put while the cloud washes over them rather than evacuate, which makes evacuating mutants a lot easier.
While true it's unrealistic to expect a flawless record with something like this. Atm the only ones thats really concerned about it is mutants, who are a very small group of people... sad to say but I think in-comic's government is at best treating them as people who suffer from a particular allergy. And like they wont go around ripping up all the flowers or cut down all the trees to accommodate people with pollen allergies, they wont get too uppity about the cloud either (which seems to be what the British government was leaning towards when they wouldn't move 2 mutant inmates... or I think they said they didn't recognize the clouds ill effects on mutants as being connected, yet)

I don't know how you could consider this a panicked reaction. They have been working with the inhumans for awhile now with no success, they know that the inhumans won't willingly destroy the cloud and they now have knowledge that it will soon reach a point of no return. They made a prudent decision about how to handle the situation. Talking hasn't worked, what evidence did the X-Men have that this would change? If you think that the inhumans can contain the cloud and are simply not doing it than that just makes the inhumans complacent with murder.

They havent tried talking as far as I am aware, and I am still waiting for someone to show me the Inhumans knowing about the 2 week deadline. And I consider it a panicked reaction because the mutants are served this notice of them having 2 weeks to either evacuate or not, and less than 2 minutes later Storm, Emma and Eric has agreed the best thing they could do was attack the Inhumans and find out what they know and then hope to stop the whole thing. Was there any consideration on the mutants part on how all of this would look or work even if they win?

It is literally infested with demons, it's barely suitable for the situation they are in.

But that corner they are in is not demon infested, Magik even specifically made so none of her ghouls could get to the X-Men. It's like a Carribian Island, its almost paradise, but there are sharks in the water.

This has been addressed by multiple posters but I don't think you have any proof that most of the mutants would have wanted to kill Wanda, that is pure speculation on your part.

Really? And what do you think Scott would have done to her? And bear in mind Scott was the defacto leader of the X-Men at this point... and that noone appears to be protesting against it.


And Emma was prepared at the beginning of HoM to kill her before she lost her mind big time.

[Mike_Murdock]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS]

Well, the Inhumans did lived on Attilan for centuries -- they had to replenish the spent crystals at some point. They must have grown replacement crystals themselves.

Son of M shows that the crystals naturally (but slowly) grow from existing crystals. A little bit later (from possibly the same issue you post below), it explains it. Basically, when Quicksilver took a handful of crystals, it completely destroyed their regular Terrigenesis where it would take decades to regrow the crystals taken from the crystals remaining. That's part of why I asked where it says they grew naturally on the moon because I was concerned someone might have misread that scene.

Species specific? Well, it quite possible but, as far as I know all 5 species of Inhumans undergo "genesis" in one fashion or another -- but, nothing says they don't use the same substance under a different name as the catalyst.

It's referred to as a "different and equally wonderful process" so I think that eliminates the idea that it's the same process with a different name. More importantly, if the claim is that there's some kind of writer's mistake in not addressing this, you would have to establish it is the same process in order to establish that it's a mistake.

I misspoke when I said the the moon (See: Fantastic Four #240) -- I should have said Attilan.

I'd hesitate to put too much weight on random maps but even that map doesn't say crystals are grown in Attilan. It says there's a Terrigen Lab, which could be used for any unknown purpose.

I omitted the Son of M picture since I addressed it above.

Once again, I don't get this desire to establish that the Inhumans can make more Terrigen Crystals as if it's needed to put the mutants in the right. The mutants are in the right regardless because they're the ones dying while the Inhumans are not. But the established canon is that the crystals are gone and no one until just this last issue knew how to make any more (assuming Maximus is telling the truth that he does). And if you're going to accuse a writer of violating established canon by writing that, you have to make sure that it's explicitly on the page before. And pulling pages out of context isn't a fair way to do it.

I'd love to find something that shows the crystals can be made from scratch (either on the moon or in Attilan/New Attilan), but I think you actually have to find something specific when the story here specifically shows the opposite.

[ZNOP]

Son of M shows that the crystals naturally (but slowly) grow from existing crystals. A little bit later (from possibly the same issue you post below), it explains it. Basically, when Quicksilver took a handful of crystals, it completely destroyed their regular Terrigenesis where it would take decades to regrow the crystals taken from the crystals remaining. That's part of why I asked where it says they grew naturally on the moon because I was concerned someone might have misread that scene.

It's referred to as a "different and equally wonderful process" so I think that eliminates the idea that it's the same process with a different name. More importantly, if the claim is that there's some kind of writer's mistake in not addressing this, you would have to establish it is the same process in order to establish that it's a mistake.

I'd hesitate to put too much weight on random maps but even that map doesn't say crystals are grown in Attilan. It says there's a Terrigen Lab, which could be used for any unknown purpose.

I omitted the Son of M picture since I addressed it above.

Once again, I don't get this desire to establish that the Inhumans can make more Terrigen Crystals as if it's needed to put the mutants in the right. The mutants are in the right regardless because they're the ones dying while the Inhumans are not. But the established canon is that the crystals are gone and no one until just this last issue knew how to make any more (assuming Maximus is telling the truth that he does). And if you're going to accuse a writer of violating established canon by writing that, you have to make sure that it's explicitly on the page before. And pulling pages out of context isn't a fair way to do it.

I'd love to find something that shows the crystals can be made from scratch (either on the moon or in Attilan/New Attilan), but I think you actually have to find something specific when the story here specifically shows the opposite.

Nah, I'm just speculating here... But, if Blackbolt can procreate with his five wives (Universal Inhumans?) it wouldn't matter what process future generations of Inhumans would use -- they'd all be genetically, and universally compatible...

[Mike_Murdock]

It's been awhile since I've read Hickman's Fantastic Four. Was he supposed to procreate or just marry them for alliance purposes?

It's not relevant right now because they're off the Earth and gone now, of course, but I can't recall the point of that story.

[Wolverine12]

In recognition that they are living in an increasingly dangerous world and need to make somekind of safe haven that cannot be easily reached by most people. Which I could say is the same kind of burden it must be to live in Tornado Ally or around the Mexican Gulf with all the hurricanes.

This is a completely baseless argument, the Mutant race has been hated since it's inception and they have never left the planet. It is explicitly mentioned multiple times in EXM that the Mutants are in limbo due to the cloud, it was the main focus of the first arc. It is the sole reason they are in limbo that is a fact, not an opinion.

Plus the narrative of the 8 months is that most humans are now just staying put while the cloud washes over them rather than evacuate, which makes evacuating mutants a lot easier.

The narrative also states that Mutants are still dying from the cloud despite the inhumans efforts to evacuate them. IvX #0 even specifically mentioned that the majority of citizens left the city that the cloud settled on when Dasuke (sp) was changed. This also doesn't address the amount of undue burden this puts on people who don't want to be exposed to the cloud and are forced to flee their homes. There are those that are unable to be rescued in time or able to get to safety due to being poor or ill or any other number of reasons, this was explicitly address in UMX.

While true it's unrealistic to expect a flawless record with something like this. Atm the only ones thats really concerned about it is mutants, who are a very small group of people... sad to say but I think in-comic's government is at best treating them as people who suffer from a particular allergy. And like they wont go around ripping up all the flowers or cut down all the trees to accommodate people with pollen allergies, they wont get too uppity about the cloud either (which seems to be what the British government was leaning towards when they wouldn't move 2 mutant inmates... or I think they said they didn't recognize the clouds ill effects on mutants as being connected, yet)

Pollen allergies don't cause sterilization or death, and of course we don't destroy plants and trees, there is medicine to counteract the effects of allergies. There is no medicine to counteract the effects of the mist on Mutants that is the whole point of the conflict. I also don't think it is a valid stance to compare getting a runny nose with dying, it makes for a weak argument. You make a good point about another issue with the whole conflict, why are the mutants the only people concerned about this? The Avengers should be concerned in any situation like this. I also think your estimation on the size of the Mutant and inhuman population is a bit misguided. At the current time all indication would say that the two species are roughly the same population. With this being the case any argument that is pro cloud is basically prioritizing the rights of one small sub species of the other. The logic behind this in the comics is absurd obviously but as an outsider (aka reader) I think it should be very clear that this is not okay.

They havent tried talking as far as I am aware, and I am still waiting for someone to show me the Inhumans knowing about the 2 week deadline. And I consider it a panicked reaction because the mutants are served this notice of them having 2 weeks to either evacuate or not, and less than 2 minutes later Storm, Emma and Eric has agreed the best thing they could do was attack the Inhumans and find out what they know and then hope to stop the whole thing. Was there any consideration on the mutants part on how all of this would look or work even if they win?

The last 8 months have had Beast working in New Attilan, I would imagine he did not work in silence. That means they have been trying collectively for 8 months to create a solution together with no result. The Mutants find themselves with 14 days until an extinction level event is set upon them knowing that the inumans refuse to destroy the cloud, fighting for your life does not always warrant diplomacy especially with such a small window to achieve success. If your best chance to save your self is to remove a force from contention then you don't show your hand to your opponent, it is common sense. Just like it was common sense for Medusa to prepare and have contingencies in case the Mutants did attack, another fact that was shown in comic. They already have a device to stop the cloud (explicitly stated during the sitdown in IvX #0 we actually see it in the preview for IvX #3), when you are fighting to save your life I don't think you really care how you look to the outside world, to further this point the outside world hasn't cared about helping the mutants so I don't see any reason they would feel the need to answer to anyone after the fact. Even if people did judge the mutants they would be justified in their actions, it is self defense. One could certainly point to Monet and Sabretooth for their actions in limbo but if you use that logic you have to point at Black Bolt for setting off the bomb that has led to the deaths of multiple innocents. Ignorance does not equal immunity.

But that corner they are in is not demon infested, Magik even specifically made so none of her ghouls could get to the X-Men. It's like a Carribian Island, its almost paradise, but there are sharks in the water.

When Sinister knocked out Magik her defenses failed and demons attacked the school, sharks rarely leave the water to attack humans on a beach. Sapna was in the little slice of heaven and still ended up possessed, a murderer and then dead at the hands of Magik. It is not a resort or a livable place no matter how much you want to say it is. If it is so perfect why do the mutants want to leave? Your previous statement you assume that the mutants went there to get away from an "increasingly dangerous world," then why has it been a constant goal for the mutants to no longer live in Limbo?

Really? And what do you think Scott would have done to her? And bear in mind Scott was the defacto leader of the X-Men at this point... and that noone appears to be protesting against it.


And Emma was prepared at the beginning of HoM to kill her before she lost her mind big time.

I think he may want to kill her but he didin't since she is standing there and not lying down dead. Also Scott and Emma, (and even Wolverine since he said she should be put down) are not the majority of mutants. They are three people. If you want to argue those three wanted her dead I will agree with you but the majority of mutants is still an assumption on your part. More to this point those three wanted her dead to stop her from killing others. The X-Men don't even want to kill the inhumans (well Emma does) they just want them out of the way while they save their species, again.

[Mike_Murdock]

Has anyone here mentioned that the Inhumans once were forced to leave the Earth because actions of the humans made in uninhabitable for them and then, when a cure was found, they came back? They didn't wage war on humans for polluting the Earth. Obviously, there are significant logistical differences, at a minimum (I also didn't really like that concept much either, fwiw), but I'm surprised no one has mentioned it in the series since it seems to parallel this story.

[Wolverine12]

Has anyone here mentioned that the Inhumans once were forced to leave the Earth because actions of the humans made in uninhabitable for them and then, when a cure was found, they came back? They didn't wage war on humans for polluting the Earth. Obviously, there are significant logistical differences, at a minimum (I also didn't really like that concept much either, fwiw), but I'm surprised no one has mentioned it in the series since it seems to parallel this story.

How were the humans harming them? I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I don't know much about the history of the inhumans and I find this intriguing. Given this knowledge I would think the inhumans would be more sympathetic to the trouble they are causing the Mutants.