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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    the problem with Batwing boils down to this, David Zavimbe was a great idea and having an agent of Batman working in African was a intriguing concept; the issue is no one in DC knew how to write an African book. they got a few awesome ideas out there with the Kingdom and Massacre, but you see in the way that they were using the characters from the Kingdom that they were stretching themselves creatively. They didn't know how to write Africa or authentic-feeling African culture or characters, and instead of doing better they opted to pivot to a more culturally familiar take that was lacking in a distinct voice and personality compared to the series before it, despite the former failing its premise. I read both after the series ended and (at the time) enjoyed them but I can not for the life of me remember anything distinct happening to Luke because, in hindsight, while he was a "funner" character he was basically War Machine but somehow with less individuality. I will give Luke this, his family gave him sooome nice character moments but they weren't anything that any character (David included) wouldn't be able to pull off in a similar-sized cast dynamic. i like Luke enough, his suit is one of my favorite Bat-suits, but imo the book had a niche audience that could have grown with better storytelling and some research but DC doomed it with a lazy gimmick by pivoting. ultimately the only thing they did was fuck up two characters and relegate them to the limbo once they had another black face to fill their gap.
    And you can thank the editor for that. Same guy behind New 52 Static & both Cyborg runs. Of course he only did David's arc and not Luke's.

    I just hope Duke fares better over time, but they are fucking with him too. it could be going down like Batwing for Duke, and then where will we be at? we had David Zavimbe as Batwing the African Batman, we had Luke Fox as Batwing the "War Machine" Batman, and Duke Thomas as the Signal the teen daytime Batman. next we'll get Davis Williams-Wayne, Bruce's secret black distant cousin who he adopts and makes into Batmobile, the black teen Batman that rocket skates at dusk...for justice!
    It's hard to fare anything when you can't get anyone willing to do something with you. That is the story for MANY DC characters.

    Flooding the market with Batman books might make the Entitlement crowd happy but long run how does that help Luke and the rest? That is just a larger pile of books to pack bins and clearance isles.

  2. #32
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    I felt the idea of a Batman of Africa in Batwing was a great idea and having a new guy learning the ropes was interesting. I didn't like how they tacked on Luke Fox into the role, when they already have another kid of Fox family that knew them in the daughter. Wasted opportunity to give us a new Female Batwing.

  3. #33
    Concerned Citizen Citizen Kane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MajorHoy View Post
    HAD a series. Readers didn't give it enough support.

    I don't blame DC for any "failures" on this . . . comic book shops and/or buyers (or lack there of) didn't show enough interest and bought crummy books starring the main Batman instead.
    If a book doesn't sell, it sure as hell isn't the reader's fault. If a book isn't worth their time, they won't buy it. DC has to go back to the drawing board as a result.


    Batwing, Sonar, and Batwoman have become completely redundant characters, and they serve little other purpose beyond adding more convolution to the Batman mythos. Perhaps DC should work on trying to make heroes interesting, independent characters. Being another Batman offshoot should not be a selling point.

  4. #34
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    Batwing, Sonar, and Batwoman have become completely redundant characters, and they serve little other purpose beyond adding more convolution to the Batman mythos.
    I know, they are so redundant that DC has decided to hide them in a TV series. Just like they are doing with the Titans and Pennyworth.

  5. #35
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    Batwing, Sonar, and Batwoman have become completely redundant characters, and they serve little other purpose beyond adding more convolution to the Batman mythos.
    No. What's redundant about any of them? Overlap =/= redundancy.
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  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    I know, they are so redundant that DC has decided to hide them in a TV series. Just like they are doing with the Titans and Pennyworth.
    That's partly because they mostly reserve the prominent characters for the Big Screen.
    With the exception of Flash non of the characters they put on the CW are really A-List properties.

    Super Girl for example keeps ripping of Superman story lines and concepts, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see something similar with Batwoman.

  7. #37
    Concerned Citizen Citizen Kane's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caivu View Post
    No. What's redundant about any of them? Overlap =/= redundancy.
    The existence of Batgirl, by association, makes the existence of Batwoman redundant. Same goes for Batwing, Sonar, Black Bat, and the like, in relation to Robin or Batman. Unfortunately, just because you like a character does not make their existence any less redundant. A writer can make a character as independent and unique as they like, but that does not change the fact that their character is just another bat-themed vigilante that shares a similar look and aesthetic to another character. It's like glazing a donut with cream when it's already filled with cream; it's redundant.

    From an editor's standpoint, why would you want to have two or three bat-themed heroines when you already had an established one from years ago? Same goes for the other Batman knockoffs. Why not simply direct viewership to the already established characters instead of across 5+ clones, especially when your established character is still very popular? You'd think DC could simply promote a new character as just that: a new character--with no ties to other characters of course. A new reader could easily be left confused and overwhelmed by the overload of characters that are nearly just copy/pastes of Batman but with gender swaps and color changes.


    As for the poster who mentioned character appearances in TV; that bares no correlation to a character's popularity in the slightest. Just because a producer thought it would be neat to add a certain character does not mean they were popular to begin with, nor does it mean they'll become popular afterwards. I'm already getting flashbacks of the comments people were making when they heard that The Guardians of the Galaxy were getting a movie.
    Last edited by Citizen Kane; 09-09-2019 at 10:57 PM.

  8. #38
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    That's partly because they mostly reserve the prominent characters for the Big Screen.
    With the exception of Flash non of the characters they put on the CW are really A-List properties.

    Super Girl for example keeps ripping of Superman story lines and concepts, and I wouldn't be surprised if we see something similar with Batwoman.
    But if they are so "redundant" don't you think other non-redundant characters would be the ones being invested in to have TV series. Supergirl is so unsuccessful after all, that she's getting a fifth season.

    It's not like Gordon fought Batman's villains in Gotham, and used Batman stories like No Man's Land, or that the series lasted for 5 years or anything. Bruce may have been in it, but Batman didn't show until the final episode.

  9. #39
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    The existence of Batgirl, by association, makes the existence of Batwoman redundant.

    A new reader could easily be left confused and overwhelmed by the overload of characters that are nearly just copy/pastes of Batman but with gender swaps and color changes.
    Yes, Batgirl and Batwoman are exactly the same character, there is no telling them apart, and they have the same backstory and personality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    As for the poster who mentioned character appearances in TV; that bares no correlation to a character's popularity in the slightest. Just because a producer thought it would be neat to add a certain character does not mean they were popular to begin with, nor does it mean they'll become popular afterwards. I'm already getting flashbacks of the comments people were making when they heard that The Guardians of the Galaxy were getting a movie.
    Absolutely correct, hardly anyone knows who the GotG are now that they've had two successful films.

  10. #40
    Extraordinary Member Caivu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Citizen Kane View Post
    The existence of Batgirl, by association, makes the existence of Batwoman redundant. Same goes for Batwing, Sonar, Black Bat, and the like, in relation to Robin or Batman.
    No, it doesn't. At all. Those characters are all distinct from one another.

    A writer can make a character as independent and unique as they like, but that does not change the fact that their character is just another bat-themed vigilante that shares a similar look and aesthetic to another character.
    Is that all that matters to you about characters? How they look? What about more substantial things like their personalities? By this logic, any characters who are part of a uniformed anything (soldiers, doctors, sports teams, etc) are automatically redundant because they look similar. That's silly.

    Making a character unique and independent is exactly what keeps them from being redundant.

    From an editor's standpoint, why would you want to have two or three bat-themed heroines when you already had an established one from years ago? Same goes for the other Batman knockoffs. Why not simply direct viewership to the already established characters instead of across 5+ clones, especially when your established character is still very popular?
    Because their characters are not the same. Barbara Gordon is a substantially different character from Kate Kane. Luke Fox is different from Duke Thomas. Etc. And all of them are different from Bruce.

    A new reader could easily be left confused and overwhelmed by the overload of characters that are nearly just copy/pastes of Batman but with gender swaps and color changes.
    Not if they're capable of actually understanding character traits, no. I didn't have a problem differentiating them when I started just a few years ago.
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  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bat-Meal View Post
    If the Batwoman tv series does well, and in season 2 or 3 Luke gets to suit-up as Batwing, the character should become more popular.

    Can't happen in season 1 of course, interviews with producers confirmed Batwoman fights alone in the first season.
    Except, from what I've seen of Luke Fox so far, I can't see him becoming Batwing. It would be even less believable than Curtis becoming Mr. Terrific.

  12. #42
    Incredible Member Bat-Meal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AnakinFlair View Post
    Except, from what I've seen of Luke Fox so far, I can't see him becoming Batwing. It would be even less believable than Curtis becoming Mr. Terrific.
    So, judging by the trailer.

    Look, he won't become Batwing in season 1, that's been confirmed - but if the series does well there is no reason to think he won't suit-up later on.

  13. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cmbmool View Post
    I mean the first man under the suit quit...just quit and it's BATMAN!!

    I mean it's DC ultimate dark guy...I never knew a person in the BATMAN MYTHOS to just QUIT and stay forgotten.

    His replacement is sort of no better since it feels like they tacked it on to give Lucius a son and to make another James Gordon and Barbara Gordon Dynamic in the Batman mythos. As if one wasn't enough.

    It's kind of sad and embarrassing that neither father knows of their off-spring's extra activities and connections to Batman.

    As Batman fans: What do you think of this ?
    Lucius Fox not knowing is believable but I figured they were waiting to make that reveal down the road. The movies did let Lucius know tho.

    David had more novelty than Luke because of his past as a child soldier and the setting of the democratic republic of congo. Following David Luke felt more conventional and safe. It took a while for the new writers to find Luke's groove.

    Luke's alright, he's just lacking that storyline that sets him apart from the others. To be fair a lot of the older characters suffer from that too (Marvel included).

    I agree with Citizen Kane as I don't like the legacy character system we have now but getting rid of it won't make new characters more palpable.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 09-12-2019 at 08:37 AM.

  14. #44
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    It always looked a bit bad taste to me. Congo is one of the most f'ed up regions in the world - too many real villains, too many real people dead for a capes and costumes book.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    you have to know that's a lazy comparison. literally the only similarities they had were they are African and superheroes.
    "He's the next Obama" for every black politician going forward. They could be a far right Republican from suburban Utah, but black + politician is gong to equal Obama for some. The idea of TWO smart and successful yet totally distinct black men in some fields is too much for some people. I'm not saying any particular poster has that feeling, just to be clear, but that that general mind state does exist.
    You're right, the "Black Panther ripoff" is so lazy and wrong. One is a literal prince, born into a royal family living in a palace in the richest, most technologically advanced city in the world. The other is a child soldier. Their personalities and motivations are totally different. Pretty much the ONLY thing that they have in common is that they are African superheroes.

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