Do You Consider Magneto A Hero Or Villain?

[lollie_poppy]

he risked dying when he saved Kitty. that was a heroic act.

Well, for the most part he's never been a hero like say the other "saints" out there in the MU, I mean not your standard boyscout hero. He's done many good things but sometimes his ways are bit extreme...

But after so many writers his depiction of course fluctuated a lot, but for the most part, those three that I mentioned are the more used.

But he isn't straight out evil either, his character is so complex he could be many things actually xD.

[Agent Z]

In a word: no.

But at least those didn't start out picking "super villain" as their chosen career path.

Rogue and Gambit started out as villains before being redeemed

[Londo Bellian]

If "storytelling trumps continuity" now, then "characterization trumps alignment" too?

[Namor'sWrath]

The two have nothing to do with each other. Characterization has always trumped alignment.

[lollie_poppy]

He isn't listed here but maybe this archetype defines Mags pretty well.

[Rivka]

In a word: no.

But at least those didn't start out picking "super villain" as their chosen career path.

Max didn't either.

In terms of the Marvel Universe, Max/Magneto spent most of his life either trying to survive or trying to protect and save mutants. He had to steal food in the Warsaw Ghetto to help keep his family alive, does that make him a thief? As a member of the Auschwitz Sonderkommando he had to help the Nazis fool his own people into the "showers" and dispose of their bodies to stay alive himself, does that make him a murderer? He thinks so. He decided he was damned, not redeemable, because of those things a long time ago. But he kept trying to keep to the path of righteousness. He tried being a husband, a father, and what happened? When his powers exploded because of his grief after his little daughter Anya was burned alive, he couldn't control them. Other mutants have accidentally killed people when their powers first manifested. He was deeply in love with his wife--Magda--and spent years searching for her. He went to Israel and worked for the Mossad and other Intelligence services as a double agent. He did this for years, before he met Charles Xavier and after.

As he aged, he refused Xavier's offer of help and spent years overusing his powers, misusing his powers. Hence the headaches. Once Isabel was murdered, he started to crack. His powers gave him bipolar psychosis. But even then, he tried to listen to his inclination to do good. He decided to hunt dangerous mutants, to turn his Intelligence talents to discovering what the governments of the world had in store for mutants. We see a moment when Sean Cassidy was still working for Interpol, when Max, using the name Erik Lehnsherr, came to him and asked for help in taking out a nascent Omega Red. This all before the FF went up in that rocket, and Xavier started training the 05.

That's Magneto's tragedy. He was not a "bad" man, he in fact was a good man for many years in-universe. But once he discovered the massive high of his enormous powers and being so incredible powerful, he became more and more out of control. He ages more slowly (due to his powers) than normal mutants or non-mutant humans, but he was still in his 70s when he first met the young 05. All those Silver Age crazy schemes can only be explained as the result of manic psychosis and his psychological problems due to all his pain and loss.

After he was baby-ized by Mutant Alpha, and re-aged, he tried repeatedly to follow Xavier's "way" and failed. But did he fail, or is Xavier's way a failure? Given the status of mutants in the Marvel Universe, Kieron Gillan's Magneto makes a lot of sense.

In any case, this poll is not valid because it doesn't provide the third choice. Magneto is neither a hero nor a villain. He's in the grey zone (where the Sonderkommando were said to be). He is well aware of his crimes in the past, and his psychotic breaks and actions--he told Scott Summers that it was no excuse, that he is responsible. Magneto is the first to say that he can't be redeemed because that's what he believes about himself. Yet, he is capable of doing good and great things, and saving lives.

He is not a sociopath, or a psychopath. He has serious psychological issues, rage and pain that he can hardly contain. He doesn't trust anyone; you can understand why, given his history. We've discussed this many times over the last 14 years I've been on this forum, so forgive me if for repeating myself, but as I've posted many times, Magneto will always be the terrified boy in the striped uniform behind the barbed wire of Auschwitz; that's why he wants everyone to fear him. That's why he believes (deep down, even if he puts it on hold to join the X-Men) the only way for mutants to persevere and prevail is by the use of force.

Yes, in the real world, different writers have had a different slant on Magneto but he's been the Holocaust survivor with the deep psychological scars for 35+ years now. That's a long time! He's been written in the grey area, a hard ass who is neither a hero nor a villain for 10 years. And he's one of Marvel's most popular characters because of this. 1-dimensional villains are a dime a dozen. Marvel's grey-zone Magneto is a unique and (to me) a magnificent character!

He is capable of love and empathy but at the same time capable of great rage. He's a fascinating character. I hate the word "villain" these days anyway. Who are "villains"? Like many others have said in this thread, one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist.

We need another poll. I might start one. There should be at 3 choices: Hero, Anti-Hero or Anti-Villain, and Villain. Perhaps a 4th choice of "Neither a hero nor a villain."

You want to pick apart the things he's done during the Silver Age (when he had gone psychotic and manic) but Magneto agrees with you! It's shameful for him. He felt guilt about the Leningrad submarine (which fired on his island first, because Russia felt threatened by Magneto in particular, because Magneto hates the Russians, because they killed his daughter Anya). (Technically now that would be the Ukrainians, but Max hates them even more because they collaborated with the Nazis during the Holocaust.) He warned the people first when he set off the Siberian volcano--but that's Russia again. It's all personal for him. In UNCANNY #150 he wanted to control the world from the far left--he wanted to destroy all nuclear weapons, end poverty, stop the destruction of the climate, bring peace, but of course with himself in charge. When he almost killed Kitty Pryde at the end, it finally jolted him into some serious self-reflection and a search for a new path.

Sorry, I could write a novel. I and many other great Magneto fans have written thousands and thousands of words about Magneto. Anyway, I don't want to ever see Magneto as a "villain" again, in some Silver Age primitive sense. And I'm worried about how he'll be portrayed in the new X-MEN BLUE book. But even if he goes off again, or for some reason takes a turn to a more pro-active violent path, it doesn't erase the fact that he spent most of his life as a good man, and a very troubled powerful mutant trying to survive and find meaning, and it was only in the last 15 years or so Marvel Time that he put on the helmet and costume (in reaction to Xavier--I think Xavier pushed him to do it, too) and committed insane and criminal acts.

[ZNOP]

Max didn't either.

In terms of the Marvel Universe, Max/Magneto spent most of his life either trying to survive or trying to protect and save mutants. He had to steal food in the Warsaw Ghetto to help keep his family alive, does that make him a thief? As a member of the Auschwitz Sonderkommando he had to help the Nazis fool his own people into the "showers" and dispose of their bodies to stay alive himself, does that make him a murderer? He thinks so. He decided he was damned, not redeemable, because of those things a long time ago.

I don't seem to recall that bit of Erik's history being told in UX-Men #150 or #161... Perhaps, you can tell me what book (Title and issue please) I can find that particular recountment in?

[lollie_poppy]

Max didn't either.

In terms of the Marvel Universe, Max/Magneto spent most of his life either trying to survive or trying to protect and save mutants. He had to steal food in the Warsaw Ghetto to help keep his family alive, does that make him a thief? As a member of the Auschwitz Sonderkommando he had to help the Nazis fool his own people into the "showers" and dispose of their bodies to stay alive himself, does that make him a murderer? He thinks so. He decided he was damned, not redeemable, because of those things a long time ago. But he kept trying to keep to the path of righteousness. He tried being a husband, a father, and what happened? When his powers exploded because of his grief after his little daughter Anya was burned alive, he couldn't control them. Other mutants have accidentally killed people when their powers first manifested. He was deeply in love with his wife--Magda--and spent years searching for her. He went to Israel and worked for the Mossad and other Intelligence services as a double agent. He did this for years, before he met Charles Xavier and after.

As he aged, he refused Xavier's offer of help and spent years overusing his powers, misusing his powers. Hence the headaches. Once Isabel was murdered, he started to crack. His powers gave him bipolar psychosis. But even then, he tried to listen to his inclination to do good. He decided to hunt dangerous mutants, to turn his Intelligence talents to discovering what the governments of the world had in store for mutants. We see a moment when Sean Cassidy was still working for Interpol, when Max, using the name Erik Lehnsherr, came to him and asked for help in taking out a nascent Omega Red. This all before the FF went up in that rocket, and Xavier started training the 05.

That's Magneto's tragedy. He was not a "bad" man, he in fact was a good man for many years in-universe. But once he discovered the massive high of his enormous powers and being so incredible powerful, he became more and more out of control. He ages more slowly (due to his powers) than normal mutants or non-mutant humans, but he was still in his 70s when he first met the young 05. All those Silver Age crazy schemes can only be explained as the result of manic psychosis and his psychological problems due to all his pain and loss.

After he was baby-ized by Mutant Alpha, and re-aged, he tried repeatedly to follow Xavier's "way" and failed. But did he fail, or is Xavier's way a failure? Given the status of mutants in the Marvel Universe, Kieron Gillan's Magneto makes a lot of sense.

In any case, this poll is not valid because it doesn't provide the third choice. Magneto is neither a hero nor a villain. He's in the grey zone (where the Sonderkommando were said to be). He is well aware of his crimes in the past, and his psychotic breaks and actions--he told Scott Summers that it was no excuse, that he is responsible. Magneto is the first to say that he can't be redeemed because that's what he believes about himself. Yet, he is capable of doing good and great things, and saving lives.

He is not a sociopath, or a psychopath. He has serious psychological issues, rage and pain that he can hardly contain. He doesn't trust anyone; you can understand why, given his history. We've discussed this many times over the last 14 years I've been on this forum, so forgive me if for repeating myself, but as I've posted many times, Magneto will always be the terrified boy in the striped uniform behind the barbed wire of Auschwitz; that's why he wants everyone to fear him. That's why he believes (deep down, even if he puts it on hold to join the X-Men) the only way for mutants to persevere and prevail is by the use of force.

Yes, in the real world, different writers have had a different slant on Magneto but he's been the Holocaust survivor with the deep psychological scars for 35+ years now. That's a long time! He's been written in the grey area, a hard ass who is neither a hero nor a villain for 10 years. And he's one of Marvel's most popular characters because of this. 1-dimensional villains are a dime a dozen. Marvel's grey-zone Magneto is a unique and (to me) a magnificent character!

He is capable of love and empathy but at the same time capable of great rage. He's a fascinating character. I hate the word "villain" these days anyway. Who are "villains"? Like many others have said in this thread, one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist.

We need another poll. I might start one. There should be at 3 choices: Hero, Anti-Hero or Anti-Villain, and Villain. Perhaps a 4th choice of "Neither a hero nor a villain."

You want to pick apart the things he's done during the Silver Age (when he had gone psychotic and manic) but Magneto agrees with you! It's shameful for him. He felt guilt about the Leningrad submarine (which fired on his island first, because Russia felt threatened by Magneto in particular, because Magneto hates the Russians, because they killed his daughter Anya). (Technically now that would be the Ukrainians, but Max hates them even more because they collaborated with the Nazis during the Holocaust.) He warned the people first when he set off the Siberian volcano--but that's Russia again. It's all personal for him. In UNCANNY #150 he wanted to control the world from the far left--he wanted to destroy all nuclear weapons, end poverty, stop the destruction of the climate, bring peace, but of course with himself in charge. When he almost killed Kitty Pryde at the end, it finally jolted him into some serious self-reflection and a search for a new path.

Sorry, I could write a novel. I and many other great Magneto fans have written thousands and thousands of words about Magneto. Anyway, I don't want to ever see Magneto as a "villain" again, in some Silver Age primitive sense. And I'm worried about how he'll be portrayed in the new X-MEN BLUE book. But even if he goes off again, or for some reason takes a turn to a more pro-active violent path, it doesn't erase the fact that he spent most of his life as a good man, and a very troubled powerful mutant trying to survive and find meaning, and it was only in the last 15 years or so Marvel Time that he put on the helmet and costume (in reaction to Xavier--I think Xavier pushed him to do it, too) and committed insane and criminal acts.

He's a Byronic Hero, I think.

And I'm worried too about Blue, Bunn's been teasing with some sort of hidden reason about Mags and the O5 working together that worries me a little, and believe it or not there's many people out there that like the character more as villain than an ally to the x-men.

I personally trust Bunn, I want to, he's done a good job with Mags caracterization and I doubt he's going to pull something like Morrison did back then, so lets cross fingers.

[Slicknickshady]

A great question. I say Hero. But those who say Villian have real good arguments. I will say one thing for sure. He's an amazing character.

[Crabadan]

he risked dying when he saved Kitty. that was a heroic act.

In my opinion, he used Kitty Pryde as a bargaining chip for obtain the Scott's confidence. I doubt Magneto would try to save Kitty if he knows he almost kill himself in the process of bring the giant bullet for earth.

Not that I find Magneto a full-villain, but he's the kind of person who does nothing for generosity.

Max didn't either.

In terms of the Marvel Universe, Max/Magneto spent most of his life either trying to survive or trying to protect and save mutants. He had to steal food in the Warsaw Ghetto to help keep his family alive, does that make him a thief? As a member of the Auschwitz Sonderkommando he had to help the Nazis fool his own people into the "showers" and dispose of their bodies to stay alive himself, does that make him a murderer? He thinks so. He decided he was damned, not redeemable, because of those things a long time ago. But he kept trying to keep to the path of righteousness. He tried being a husband, a father, and what happened? When his powers exploded because of his grief after his little daughter Anya was burned alive, he couldn't control them. Other mutants have accidentally killed people when their powers first manifested. He was deeply in love with his wife--Magda--and spent years searching for her. He went to Israel and worked for the Mossad and other Intelligence services as a double agent. He did this for years, before he met Charles Xavier and after.

As he aged, he refused Xavier's offer of help and spent years overusing his powers, misusing his powers. Hence the headaches. Once Isabel was murdered, he started to crack. His powers gave him bipolar psychosis. But even then, he tried to listen to his inclination to do good. He decided to hunt dangerous mutants, to turn his Intelligence talents to discovering what the governments of the world had in store for mutants. We see a moment when Sean Cassidy was still working for Interpol, when Max, using the name Erik Lehnsherr, came to him and asked for help in taking out a nascent Omega Red. This all before the FF went up in that rocket, and Xavier started training the 05.

That's Magneto's tragedy. He was not a "bad" man, he in fact was a good man for many years in-universe. But once he discovered the massive high of his enormous powers and being so incredible powerful, he became more and more out of control. He ages more slowly (due to his powers) than normal mutants or non-mutant humans, but he was still in his 70s when he first met the young 05. All those Silver Age crazy schemes can only be explained as the result of manic psychosis and his psychological problems due to all his pain and loss.

After he was baby-ized by Mutant Alpha, and re-aged, he tried repeatedly to follow Xavier's "way" and failed. But did he fail, or is Xavier's way a failure? Given the status of mutants in the Marvel Universe, Kieron Gillan's Magneto makes a lot of sense.

In any case, this poll is not valid because it doesn't provide the third choice. Magneto is neither a hero nor a villain. He's in the grey zone (where the Sonderkommando were said to be). He is well aware of his crimes in the past, and his psychotic breaks and actions--he told Scott Summers that it was no excuse, that he is responsible. Magneto is the first to say that he can't be redeemed because that's what he believes about himself. Yet, he is capable of doing good and great things, and saving lives.

He is not a sociopath, or a psychopath. He has serious psychological issues, rage and pain that he can hardly contain. He doesn't trust anyone; you can understand why, given his history. We've discussed this many times over the last 14 years I've been on this forum, so forgive me if for repeating myself, but as I've posted many times, Magneto will always be the terrified boy in the striped uniform behind the barbed wire of Auschwitz; that's why he wants everyone to fear him. That's why he believes (deep down, even if he puts it on hold to join the X-Men) the only way for mutants to persevere and prevail is by the use of force.

Yes, in the real world, different writers have had a different slant on Magneto but he's been the Holocaust survivor with the deep psychological scars for 35+ years now. That's a long time! He's been written in the grey area, a hard ass who is neither a hero nor a villain for 10 years. And he's one of Marvel's most popular characters because of this. 1-dimensional villains are a dime a dozen. Marvel's grey-zone Magneto is a unique and (to me) a magnificent character!

He is capable of love and empathy but at the same time capable of great rage. He's a fascinating character. I hate the word "villain" these days anyway. Who are "villains"? Like many others have said in this thread, one person's freedom fighter is another person's terrorist.

We need another poll. I might start one. There should be at 3 choices: Hero, Anti-Hero or Anti-Villain, and Villain. Perhaps a 4th choice of "Neither a hero nor a villain."

You want to pick apart the things he's done during the Silver Age (when he had gone psychotic and manic) but Magneto agrees with you! It's shameful for him. He felt guilt about the Leningrad submarine (which fired on his island first, because Russia felt threatened by Magneto in particular, because Magneto hates the Russians, because they killed his daughter Anya). (Technically now that would be the Ukrainians, but Max hates them even more because they collaborated with the Nazis during the Holocaust.) He warned the people first when he set off the Siberian volcano--but that's Russia again. It's all personal for him. In UNCANNY #150 he wanted to control the world from the far left--he wanted to destroy all nuclear weapons, end poverty, stop the destruction of the climate, bring peace, but of course with himself in charge. When he almost killed Kitty Pryde at the end, it finally jolted him into some serious self-reflection and a search for a new path.

Sorry, I could write a novel. I and many other great Magneto fans have written thousands and thousands of words about Magneto. Anyway, I don't want to ever see Magneto as a "villain" again, in some Silver Age primitive sense. And I'm worried about how he'll be portrayed in the new X-MEN BLUE book. But even if he goes off again, or for some reason takes a turn to a more pro-active violent path, it doesn't erase the fact that he spent most of his life as a good man, and a very troubled powerful mutant trying to survive and find meaning, and it was only in the last 15 years or so Marvel Time that he put on the helmet and costume (in reaction to Xavier--I think Xavier pushed him to do it, too) and committed insane and criminal acts.

Great speech. This resumes Magneto almost perfectly for me. I only guess I see Magneto with roughness, for me, he will never to be reliable because of many reasons explained in the text above. For me, Magneto is a functional sociopath.

[Carabas]

Rogue and Gambit started out as villains before being redeemed

I disagree that Gambit has been redeemed.

Being raised by Mystique to be a supervillain is good enough as an excuse for Rogue.

[Havok83]

you should have put in choices for anti-hero or anti-villian as he isnt clearly defined as merely a hero or villian. I voted hero. Magneto has not been a villian since 2001's Eve of Destruction nearly 15 years ago. He's been on the side of good consistently for almost a decade now

[Dum Dum Dugan]

So does everyone here who thinks Magneto is a horrible person feel the same way about Nat Turner?

[Michael Watkins]

In my opinion, he used Kitty Pryde as a bargaining chip for obtain the Scott's confidence. I doubt Magneto would try to save Kitty if he knows he almost kill himself in the process of bring the giant bullet for earth.

I agree that it's your opinion. I'm familiar enough with x-men history to know that a highlight of Magneto's history was him questioning everything after accidentally harming Kitty. they went to the Holocaust museum together. and you think that he saved her life (a mutant life) as a bargaining chip. I say that he genuinely surrendered himself at the start of that run. he kneeled to Cyclops in front of everyone. and he stuck with Scott even after the latter murdered one of his oldest friends.

[Grim Ghost]

So does everyone here who thinks Magneto is a horrible person feel the same way about Nat Turner?

Nat Turner much like Magneto turned a good cause bad once they started murdering women and children who had nothing to do with anything, especially the kids. The blood of many innocent children is on Magneto's hands so I guess they do have some things in common.

But at least Nat Turner had little to no power to resist with. You can make some excuses for Turner because he had so little to work with. Magneto on the other hand has the power of a God, in fact he is one of the most powerful people in the MU. Also he is something of a genius. Magneto had all sorts of of other options to help his cause beyond violence and killing innocents with all of the power he wields. So I guess Nat Turner is a better guy than Magneto who is a total creep.