Could Rebirth end with "everything" being in-continuity?

[GlennSimpson]

I actually am not sure that whatever happens with Superman is necessarily reflective of the whole universe. My interpretation is that they wanted a married Superman who was secretly Clark Kent reporter for the Daily Planet, etc., so this is the process they have gone through to be able to make that happen. But the things they might need to do to get the other characters into the desired scenario with the legacy and hope and classic qualities might not be so extreme.

[Aahz]

I hope that they do after Rebirth some new "Sectret files and origin" series, and pin at least rough timeline and which events are cannon and which aren't down. And than have the writers stick to it (at least for the next 5 years or so).

I mean the Morrison approach kind of works since most of the stories that were published before the 80s and don't really have big effect on the continuity, but thats not the case with the major events, and some stories are quite important for the relation between certain characters, and it is not really possible to really write a personal interaction between the characters when it is not clear what is canon and what isn't.

[Ragged Maw]

Yes, I'm sure Jimmy Olsen would love to remember getting wed to a gorilla.

[Ascended]

I actually am not sure that whatever happens with Superman is necessarily reflective of the whole universe. My interpretation is that they wanted a married Superman who was secretly Clark Kent reporter for the Daily Planet, etc., so this is the process they have gone through to be able to make that happen. But the things they might need to do to get the other characters into the desired scenario with the legacy and hope and classic qualities might not be so extreme.

The issue I have with that is if DC's only goal was a married Superman with a kid, there are easier ways to get there that are less convoluted and wouldn't piss off a chunk of the fanbase and confuse the rest.

A simple time travel story where Clark and Lois get tossed into the future for ten years and then return to the moment they originally left, but now with a son in tow, would have achieved the same results. A quick, amicable breakup with Diana where they both decide they're better as friends would have jumped that hurdle easily. All the post-Crisis stories they want to include could have been put into the five-year gap, which the Super-titles never fleshed out.

Its not the most elegant solution but its much cleaner than the "temporal refugee" thing they went with. And if we can come up with easier methods to get back to married Superman, the writers at DC certainly can.

So I gotta assume DC has more in mind for Superdad than just hitting a status quo.

[bat39]

The issue I have with that is if DC's only goal was a married Superman with a kid, there are easier ways to get there that are less convoluted and wouldn't piss off a chunk of the fanbase and confuse the rest.

A simple time travel story where Clark and Lois get tossed into the future for ten years and then return to the moment they originally left, but now with a son in tow, would have achieved the same results. A quick, amicable breakup with Diana where they both decide they're better as friends would have jumped that hurdle easily. All the post-Crisis stories they want to include could have been put into the five-year gap, which the Super-titles never fleshed out.

Its not the most elegant solution but its much cleaner than the "temporal refugee" thing they went with. And if we can come up with easier methods to get back to married Superman, the writers at DC certainly can.

So I gotta assume DC has more in mind for Superdad than just hitting a status quo.

Your right that this 'simple time travel' story would have been 'cleaner'. Then again, as you rightly pointed out, it wasn't simply about getting Lois and Clark married and with a son. It was about literally bringing back an older version of Superman...one perceived as being the 'classic' version of the character.

Really, the differences between Nuperman and Superdad are perceptual more than anything else. Nuperman was presented as this radical new reinvention of Superman that threw away everything the 'classic' Superman had come to stand for (which was mostly negative circa 2011 owing to bad writing). And that alienated fans of the classic Superman. Fans that DC is now seeking to appeal to (and successfully so far) by literally bringing back the guy who was 'unceremoniously ousted' back in the day.

And yet...surely they could have done that by simply revealing that Nuperman was the classic Superman with time stolen from his life, as is the case with every other DC character. Then again, I suppose since DC already had the Post-COIE Superman and Lois out there, they figured it was comparatively 'neater' to incorporate him into the Rebirth narrative than leave him as a loose end.

[RobinFan4880]

The issue I have with that is if DC's only goal was a married Superman with a kid, there are easier ways to get there that are less convoluted and wouldn't piss off a chunk of the fanbase and confuse the rest.

A simple time travel story where Clark and Lois get tossed into the future for ten years and then return to the moment they originally left, but now with a son in tow, would have achieved the same results. A quick, amicable breakup with Diana where they both decide they're better as friends would have jumped that hurdle easily. All the post-Crisis stories they want to include could have been put into the five-year gap, which the Super-titles never fleshed out.

Its not the most elegant solution but its much cleaner than the "temporal refugee" thing they went with. And if we can come up with easier methods to get back to married Superman, the writers at DC certainly can.

So I gotta assume DC has more in mind for Superdad than just hitting a status quo.

Because the goal is to integrate Pre-Flashpoint stuff as well.

[sustainentropy]

Because the goal is to integrate Pre-Flashpoint stuff as well.

Agreed. Plus DC clearly wanted to show lapsed fans that this is "their" version of Superman that's being used in order to potentially bring them back to buying the books.

[sustainentropy]

But the things they might need to do to get the other characters into the desired scenario with the legacy and hope and classic qualities might not be so extreme.

Oh definitely. Superman is by far the most extreme example.

[Ascended]

And yet...surely they could have done that by simply revealing that Nuperman was the classic Superman with time stolen from his life, as is the case with every other DC character. Then again, I suppose since DC already had the Post-COIE Superman and Lois out there, they figured it was comparatively 'neater' to incorporate him into the Rebirth narrative than leave him as a loose end.

From what we've heard, this plan to replace Nuperman with a previous version began even before Truth started to dive in sales. So this was being worked on since 2014 or so, when the titles were still selling steadily and consistently. I doubt DC has had Rebirth planned since before that. No, whatever the reasons for Superdad's return it looks like it has nothing to do with business acumen (as far as I can tell from this side of the supply/demand chain) and was a personal choice someone in power (almost certainly Johns) decided to force through. Superdad's return certainly influenced the development of Rebirth, but....I think the Superdad decision came before Rebirth had taken shape.

Because the goal is to integrate Pre-Flashpoint stuff as well.

Again, that could have been achieved without half as much fuss and bother. The New52 five-year gap was practically empty as far as Super-lore goes, so they could have thrown all the post-Crisis stuff they wanted into that hole. And anything that didn't fit in there could have been re-introduced fairly easily. If something really didn't fit the mold at all, a minor retcon (hell, tie it into the time travel story that gets us to Jon) would have had the same effect without the side-effects.

[Last Son of Krypton]

From what we've heard, this plan to replace Nuperman with a previous version began even before Truth started to dive in sales. So this was being worked on since 2014 or so, when the titles were still selling steadily and consistently. I doubt DC has had Rebirth planned since before that. No, whatever the reasons for Superdad's return it looks like it has nothing to do with business acumen (as far as I can tell from this side of the supply/demand chain) and was a personal choice someone in power (almost certainly Johns) decided to force through. Superdad's return certainly influenced the development of Rebirth, but....I think the Superdad decision came before Rebirth had taken shape.

Exactly. DiDio said that Rebirth was ideated after October 2015 and Superdad was already back at the time.
We don't know for sure what was their goal at that time regarding the two Supermen but, as I pointed out several times in the Superman forum, the story Jurgens has told many times is that when he was working with Dan DiDio at Convergence, he suggested to DiDio that Jon being the child/legacy of Superman and Lois was a big deal and would change everything in the DCU ("he is DC's future"), and from there he and DiDio began discussing how to bring the character created in Convergence (Jon) in the main DCU. Their creative process seems enough simple.

[GlennSimpson]

The issue I have with that is if DC's only goal was a married Superman with a kid, there are easier ways to get there that are less convoluted and wouldn't piss off a chunk of the fanbase and confuse the rest.

A simple time travel story where Clark and Lois get tossed into the future for ten years and then return to the moment they originally left, but now with a son in tow, would have achieved the same results. A quick, amicable breakup with Diana where they both decide they're better as friends would have jumped that hurdle easily. All the post-Crisis stories they want to include could have been put into the five-year gap, which the Super-titles never fleshed out.

Its not the most elegant solution but its much cleaner than the "temporal refugee" thing they went with. And if we can come up with easier methods to get back to married Superman, the writers at DC certainly can.

So I gotta assume DC has more in mind for Superdad than just hitting a status quo.

Thing is, creative folks don't always want to do things in the cleanest way. Sometimes a particular "hook" appeals to them. But the fact that they did it in a convoluted way does not take away from the fact that getting back to the pre-Flashpoint status quo as it stands with Lois and Clark's marriage was probably the primary goal of the story.

[GlennSimpson]

I have to say that this business DC has of ignoring the fact that this is a different Superman when they choose to can be a little distracting. Like in JLvsSS, Killer Frost is reflecting on how she saw Superman once before she became Killer Frost. Well, theoretically the Superman she saw was Nuperman. Of course, Dad Superman has no reason to correct her (and digress from the main story). But then Dad Superman sees Max Lord and immediately thinks he's a bad guy when nobody else knows who he is, because presumably he is continuing to assume that everyone who was bad in his reality is bad in this new one. Of course, if you don't read the Superman books, you don't see a problem with the former but might be confused by the latter.

[bat39]

I have to say that this business DC has of ignoring the fact that this is a different Superman when they choose to can be a little distracting. Like in JLvsSS, Killer Frost is reflecting on how she saw Superman once before she became Killer Frost. Well, theoretically the Superman she saw was Nuperman. Of course, Dad Superman has no reason to correct her (and digress from the main story). But then Dad Superman sees Max Lord and immediately thinks he's a bad guy when nobody else knows who he is, because presumably he is continuing to assume that everyone who was bad in his reality is bad in this new one. Of course, if you don't read the Superman books, you don't see a problem with the former but might be confused by the latter.

I haven't read the story in question, but the way I see it - the public mostly seems to accept Superdad as Nuperman brought back to life somehow. I doubt too many people on the street are aware that he's from a different timeline/universe/whatever. The League knows he's different because they knew Nuperman closely. So when someone like Killer Frost sees Superdad, she probably assumes he's the same guy she saw before.

The new Clark wrote that article about Superman being a new guy...true. But he didn't really get into the mechanics of it too much. So I assume that most people (the government, the public, the heroes and villains not very familiar with Superman personally) simply think its the same guy who died and then came back to life, and now MAYBE looks a bit older, acts a bit more matured, and wears a slightly different suit.

[GreenLanternRanger]

Didn't Convergence & Metron in Darkseid War confirm that everything was cannon to the DCU?

[Ascended]

Thing is, creative folks don't always want to do things in the cleanest way. Sometimes a particular "hook" appeals to them. But the fact that they did it in a convoluted way does not take away from the fact that getting back to the pre-Flashpoint status quo as it stands with Lois and Clark's marriage was probably the primary goal of the story.

Oh, it seems clear that the status quo of being married to Lois and having a kid was the end goal (that was the whole pitch Jurgens threw). And yes, sometimes creators want to get to their end point in a weird way. However they dont exist in a vacuum, there are business considerations to take into account.

Superdad's Rebirth has gone really damn well, and Im happy about that. Tomasi is killing it. But this whole situation seems like it was a huge, incredibly stupid risk for DC to take. At the time they were planning Superdad's return Nuperman was selling well. Post-Crisis however, the version they were planning to return, hadn't sold well for years before the reboot, and the Lois & Clark mini sold even worse. This easily could have been one of the biggest trainwrecks in Super-history, and it worries me that DC took that gamble just because they wanted to give Clark the son they should have given him ten years ago. They could have minimized the risk factors a lot with a less convoluted story and still got to the place we're currently enjoying, and if the talent didn't want to keep it clean, well, they're not the ones who have to deal with the accountants.

Ultimately, I guess its largely a non-issue since the gamble did pay off. But holy crap, what a mess they made.